God as Self, Atman

[Michael Sternbach]

11 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

Agreed that that is a pretty strong picture. And surely most will agree that there is a two way street so to speak going on,  which is indicated to some by Solomon's six pointed star.  But I also differ on the idea that an empirical human self becomes the spiritual or higher self in the process implied...being that I see the human self as becoming a refined vehicle or matrix for an already existent spiritual self to manifest through.

 

The spiritual self is many things. But it's worth bearing in mind that time flow is more or less limited to the physical system. Thus, the spiritual self may at once be the goal of the current self's evolution as well as the Great Attractor that acts backwards in time and quickens it towards its ultimate fulfillment. Whereas looked at from a different perspective, all manifestations of the self exist simultaneously.

[3bob]

52 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

The spiritual self is many things. But it's worth bearing in mind that time flow is more or less limited to the physical system. Thus, the spiritual self may at once be the goal of the current self's evolution as well as the Great Attractor that acts backwards in time and quickens it towards its ultimate fulfillment. Whereas looked at from a different perspective, all manifestations of the self exist simultaneously.

 

we may be working from  different systems with different meanings for terms like self, Self, etc.  btw. I'm not familiar with the term Great Attractor. 

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

we may be working from  different systems with different meanings for terms like self, Self, etc.  btw. I'm not familiar with the term Great Attractor. 

 

Well, the difficulty may be that our understanding of these things is just too limited in order to define them more rigorously.

 

The Great Attractor is a term from Cosmology which I used metaphorically. It's a place where all local galaxies are headed to for some not completely understood reason. A fascinating topic in its own right (for Marblehead anyway ).

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipole_repeller

 

But I could just as well have used Aristotle's Final Cause, Entelechy, Telos, or even Teilhard de Chardin's Omega Point - although the latter specifically refers to the time when the whole Universe will come to realize its identity with God.

 

But maybe there is less of a difference between our topic and that state than it seens. What if the realization of one is the realization of many?

[silent thunder]

For some time now I don't seem inclined or even capable of perceiving the mundane as separate from spiritual in any way.  They are one flowing.  Spirit seems imbued into every aspect of the manifest, indeed the very fabric of phenomena and noumena alike teems with the essential tones of the flowing vibrant spirit of liquid light.

 

And the sense of my self, which used to seem like a machine that required fixing, or a process of refining that needed my (or a teacher's) constant conscious directed interference in order to be pushed, pulled, cajoled, tricked, hammered, learned, skillified into its true nature, its perfected form... has now utterly dissolved into a sensing that when left to its own devices the notion of self unfolds in clarity in utter bliss.  Indeed when my incessant seeking and striving to create the refinement ceases, then in the ensuing quiet, stillness arises and with that the occlusions in the liquid light settle like mud in a still pond and the waters become clear and calm.

 

muddiest waters

left undisturbed by process

rest in clarity

 

In effortless unfolding am I discovering authentic 'self' of late and this 'self' seems like fluid flowing light.  Thoughts, emotions, knowledge seem like occlusions within this, much like clouds within sky that come and go, yet never really touch the sky, nor alter it in any permanent manner.

[3bob]

 

On 11/9/2018 at 9:19 PM, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Well, the difficulty may be that our understanding of these things is just too limited in order to define them more rigorously.

 

The Great Attractor is a term from Cosmology which I used metaphorically. It's a place where all local galaxies are headed to for some not completely understood reason. A fascinating topic in its own right (for Marblehead anyway ).

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipole_repeller

 

But I could just as well have used Aristotle's Final Cause, Entelechy, Telos, or even Teilhard de Chardin's Omega Point - although the latter specifically refers to the time when the whole Universe will come to realize its identity with God.

 

But maybe there is less of a difference between our topic and that state than it seens. What if the realization of one is the realization of many?

 

the sound deep inside the many is also the sound of the first, and the first is also the last that returns to silence. 

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by 3bob

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

 

the sound deep inside the many is also the sound of the first, and the first is also the last that returns to silence. 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Well, she's got a sexy body.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

28 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Well, she's got a sexy body.

 

 

Well, since (as far as I know) you don't believe in the existence of a non-physical self or soul, wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to say, she is a sexy body?

[Marblehead]

12 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Well, since (as far as I know) you don't believe in the existence of a non-physical self or soul, wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to say, she is a sexy body?

One point for you.

 

(And I don't give out points lightly.)

 

[Patrick Brown]

7 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

 since (as far as I know) you don't believe in the existence of a non-physical self or soul

 

I don't believe in such things either.

 

BUT! There is a way in which I do, it gets deeply philosophical though!  

 

Bit like wave-particle-duality and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

  

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

Bit like wave-particle-duality and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

A particle is a particle and a wave is a bunch of particles aligned in some manner.

 

Uncertainty exists only because you don't know.  Some people have peeked into the box and they know.  Reality is what it is regardless of our uncertainty (unknowing).

 

And yes, most cats can find ways to entertain themselves.  Most people have a hard time with that.

 

[Patrick Brown]

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

A particle is a particle and a wave is a bunch of particles aligned in some manner.

 

Is this a fact? I always though that there was some uncertainty to the whole idea of particles being a real thing and that they just serve as a way to understand reality because the maths is weird/complex. So are you suggesting all waves are some kind of particle/s simply in array? So light is made of particles i.e. Photons? Hmm, doesn't change much I just always though everything was energy fields although it's just as bizarre if everything is made of particles.  

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

Is this a fact?

It was a fact until quantum theory started becoming popular.

 

The particle is the smallest measurement of physicality.  So, yes, everything is made of particles.

 

A wave has a purpose; a particle has no purpose until it becomes an aspect of a wave.

 

~  This is a wave.  There many points along the path of this wave.  These points are particles.

 

Now, I'm not saying that I am wiser than Max Planck.  Just saying that I have to remain with my present understanding until I am convinced that my logic is invalid.

 

 

[Patrick Brown]

21 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Now, I'm not saying that I am wiser than Max Planck.  Just saying that I have to remain with my present understanding until I am convinced that my logic is invalid.

 

Yes I agree.

 

I did have a quick look and the Just read up on it and I've probably been working with the 'quantum field theory' in my world! Funny how we pick up ideas and incorporate them without too much thought. I'm obviously aware of the concepts of particles but I'm equally aware of the theories of energy fields and I always thought that both were true. Hmm it's one of those things that's not clear cut and I don't even think physicists understands it. 

 

It's this kind of voodoo which gives a degree of credence to those that believe in psychic phenomenon. As said I'm not a believer but certain things may be plausible.  

Edited November 13, 2018 by Patrick Brown

[Patrick Brown]

This might be worth a watch even though it's from 2013:

 

 

[Marblehead]

Yes, Quantum Theory seems to work well at the atomic and sub-atomic level but the theories break down when applied non=quantum 'real' universe.  This is why there is a search for a 'unifying theory'.

 

Watching TV last night, the folks were talking about Black Holes and it was admitted that when approaching a Black Hole and going beyond the event horizon the current understandings of the physics of the universe break down.  The physics of a Black Hole are still undefined.

 

 

[Marblehead]

15 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

This might be worth a watch even though it's from 2013:

I listened to a bit of this.  I will get back to it at some point as he is talking about stuff I'm still not comfortable with.  Maybe he will hit on something that will help.

 

[wandelaar]

The double-slit experiment experimentally disproves the idea that light simply consists of particles and it equally disproves the idea that light simply consists of waves. So the idea that light either consists of particles or of waves is simply wrong. Nature proves to be more complicated. And you don't need quantum mechanics and/or relativity theory to draw this conclusion.

[Marblehead]

43 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

… to draw this conclusion.

I haven't drawn any conclusions yet.  But I would question the double-slit experiment.

 

And true, some things aren't as easy as they appear.

 

[wandelaar]

10 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

But I would question the double-slit experiment.

 

Questioning the double-slit experiment is questioning the facts.

[Patrick Brown]

It get even more bizarre with 'quantum entanglement' and 'spooky action at a distance'!  

[wandelaar]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

It get even more bizarre with 'quantum entanglement' and 'spooky action at a distance'!  

 

That's right, but the advantage of the simple double-slit experiment is that it can easily be understood without the use of quantum mechanics. This clearly shows that the weirdness isn't an artefact of modern physics but is presented by nature itself.

[3bob]

talk about getting off the op....

[Patrick Brown]

6 minutes ago, 3bob said:

talk about getting off the op....

 

Well yeah but it is kind of related, think singularity. 

[wandelaar]

I'll be happy to start a separate topic about the double-slit experiment if anyone would like to explore its consequences.