Democracy

[moment]

There are only 19 “fully democratic” countries in the world and the US is not one of them.--The Economist Intelligence Unit’s annual Democracy Index.

 

[thelerner]

eh, 8 7.98 out of 10 ain't bad. We are after all a Republic..  and while flawed at times it (theoretically) keeps us away from the tyranny of the masses, and voting ourselves bread and circus.. potentially. 

https://infographics.economist.com/2018/DemocracyIndex/

 

In any case, off to beat the crowds and vote early.

Edited November 2, 2018 by thelerner

[moment]

17 minutes ago, thelerner said:

eh, 8 out of 10 ain't bad. We are after all a Republic..  and while flawed at times it (theoretically) keeps us away from the tyranny of the masses, and voting ourselves bread and circus.. potentially. 

https://infographics.economist.com/2018/DemocracyIndex/

 

In any case, off to beat the crowds and vote early.

Once rated the freest country in the world by every credible freedom watch organization, the USA is now rated between #11 and #20 by those same groups.

Edited November 2, 2018 by moment

[thelerner]

We missed Full Democracy by .02.. now if only Malta would drop down a bit we'd b e on our way. 

 

There is good news.  Democracy has been on a grown hugely for the past 100 years.  Good strides in the last 40 too.  See http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/12/06/despite-concerns-about-global-democracy-nearly-six-in-ten-countries-are-now-democratic/

 

And by one measure, the number of democratic nations around the world is at a postwar high.  This is important since historically democracies fight much less especially with each other.  They are tend to be more peaceful then authoritarian regimes.  As Europe got more democratic, there near constant wars, ended.  Also  less chance of world wars. 

As of the end of 2016, 97 out of 167 countries (58%) with populations of at least 500,000 were democracies, and only 21 (13%) were autocracies, both post-World War II records. The rest either exhibited elements of both democracy and autocracy (26%) or were not rated. Broadly speaking, the share of democracies among the world’s governments has been on an upward trend since the mid-1970s.

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by thelerner

[moment]

5 minutes ago, thelerner said:

We missed Full Democracy by .02.. now if only Malta would drop down a bit we'd b e on our way. 

 

There is good news.  Democracy has been on a grown hugely for the past 100 years.  Good strides in the last 40 too.  See http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/12/06/despite-concerns-about-global-democracy-nearly-six-in-ten-countries-are-now-democratic/

 

And by one measure, the number of democratic nations around the world is at a postwar high.  This is important since historically democracies fight much less especially with each other.  They are tend to be more peaceful then authoritarian regimes.  As Europe got more democratic, there near constant wars, ended.  Also  less chance of world wars. 

As of the end of 2016, 97 out of 167 countries (58%) with populations of at least 500,000 were democracies, and only 21 (13%) were autocracies, both post-World War II records. The rest either exhibited elements of both democracy and autocracy (26%) or were not rated. Broadly speaking, the share of democracies among the world’s governments has been on an upward trend since the mid-1970s.

 

The most important point here imo, is that the USA is losing out competitively to many other countries in the most important arena of all.  Our freedom.

[Marblehead]

Just now, moment said:

The most important point here imo, is that the USA is losing out competitively to many other countries in the most important arena of all.  Our freedom.

I agree and find that sad.  The USA used to be the best example available.

 

 

[thelerner]

2 hours ago, moment said:

The most important point here imo, is that the USA is losing out competitively to many other countries in the most important arena of all.  Our freedom.

Which ones?   Religion, assembly, right to bear arms, can't vote, no free press?, can't move across states lines.. what freedoms are we robbed of? 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by thelerner

[moment]

7 hours ago, thelerner said:

Which ones?   Religion, assembly, right to bear arms, can't vote, no free press?, can't move across states lines.. what freedoms are we robbed of? 

 

 

The president now decides whether a person will receive a trial in the federal courts or in a military tribunal, a system that has been ridiculed around the world for lacking basic due process protections.

The president may now order warrantless surveillance, including a new capability to force companies and organizations to turn over information on citizens’ finances, communications and associations. Bush acquired this sweeping power under the Patriot Act in 2001, and in 2011, and this power has been extended including searches of everything from business documents to library records. The government can use “national security letters” to demand, without probable cause, that organizations turn over information on citizens — and order them not to reveal the disclosure to the affected party. 

The government now routinely uses secret evidence to detain individuals and employs secret evidence in federal and military courts. It also forces the dismissal of cases against the United States by simply filing declarations that the cases would make the government reveal classified information that would harm national security — a claim made in a variety of privacy lawsuits and largely accepted by federal judges without question. Even legal opinions, cited as the basis for the government’s actions under the Bush and Obama administrations, have been classified. This allows the government to claim secret legal arguments to support secret proceedings using secret evidence.  The Patriot act now allows the surveillance and monitoring of US citizens without justifying cause or allowing review. 

The government has successfully pushed for immunity for companies that assist in warrantless surveillance of citizens, blocking the ability of citizens to challenge the violation of privacy.

The administration uses GPS devices to monitor every move of targeted citizens without securing any court order or review.

 

[windwalker]

11 hours ago, moment said:

There are only 19 “fully democratic” countries in the world and the US is not one of them.--The Economist Intelligence Unit’s annual Democracy Index.

 

 

 

Could it be because the US is not a Democracy. 

 

Quote

A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect, and promises the cure for which we are seeking. Let us examine the points in which it varies from pure democracy, and we shall comprehend both the nature of the cure and the efficacy which it must derive from the Union.

 

The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are:

 

first, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; secondly, the greater number of citizens, and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended.

 http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed10.asp

 

Quote

The effect of the first difference is, on the one hand, to refine and enlarge the public views, by passing them through the medium of a chosen body of citizens, whose wisdom may best discern the true interest of their country, and whose patriotism and love of justice will be least likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial considerations.

 

Under such a regulation, it may well happen that the public voice, pronounced by the representatives of the people, will be more consonant to the public good than if pronounced by the people themselves, convened for the purpose. On the other hand, the effect may be inverted.

 

Men of factious tempers, of local prejudices, or of sinister designs, may, by intrigue, by corruption, or by other means, first obtain the suffrages, and then betray the interests, of the people.

 

The question resulting is, whether small or extensive republics are more favorable to the election of proper guardians of the public weal; and it is clearly decided in favor of the latter by two obvious considerations:

 

 

Quote

Men of factious tempers, of local prejudices, or of sinister designs, may, by intrigue, by corruption, or by other means, first obtain the suffrages, and then betray the interests, of the people. 

 

This is what is happening now...but maybe not due to the safeguards of the constitution.  Although it would seem they did not forsee what would happen when 2 of the 3 branches acted in concert against the other branch.  

Edited November 3, 2018 by windwalker

[windwalker]

11 hours ago, moment said:

The most important point here imo, is that the USA is losing out competitively to many other countries in the most important arena of all.  Our freedom.

 

 

what freedoms, compared to other countries 

is the US losing out on?

[moment]

21 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

 

what freedoms, compared to other countries 

is the US losing out on?

 

Read approximately 10:15PM

[windwalker]

Just now, moment said:

 

Read approximately 10:15PM

 

try again...its a question to understand those posting here

cant have discussion with a book.

[windwalker]

Edited November 3, 2018 by windwalker

[whitesilk]

I am demo crazy.

[thelerner]

11 hours ago, moment said:

 

The president now decides whether a person will receive a trial in the federal courts or in a military tribunal, a system that has been ridiculed around the world for lacking basic due process protections...

 

wait.. thats alot of words.  Any freedoms you're prohibited from?  I understand your worry about being prosecuted in a military tribunal instead of federal court, so am I, but much of what you write is aftermath of 9/11. During wars and traumatic national events there's always an over reaction but because the U.S does have a strong history and love of individual right they usually snap back.   Even in your first example there's a mess of lawyers and Rights groups that fight against it.  Not always winning but with some power.

 

Again, any freedoms you personally don't have? 

I just voted, went to a rally.. wrote up opinions, I've exercised 7 or 8 rights the last couple days, none have been forbidden or a problem in the states.

 

I've seen what oppressive and moving towards oppressive regimes are like and imo despite rhetoric from extremists on both sides, we're not.  Though shit happens and sometimes citizens are caught up in bureaucratic  nightmares, some bad laws on the books, but by and large, this is a real good country for freedom, imo. 

Edited November 3, 2018 by thelerner

[moment]

38 minutes ago, thelerner said:

wait.. thats alot of words.  Any freedoms you're prohibited from?  I understand your worry about being prosecuted in a military tribunal instead of federal court, so am I, but much of what you write is aftermath of 9/11. During wars and traumatic national events there's always an over reaction but because the U.S does have a strong history and love of individual right they usually snap back.   Even in your first example there's a mess of lawyers and Rights groups that fight against it.  Not always winning but with some power.

 

Again, any freedoms you personally don't have? 

I just voted, went to a rally.. wrote up opinions, I've exercised 7 or 8 rights the last couple days, none have been forbidden or a problem in the states.

 

I've seen what oppressive and moving towards oppressive regimes are like and imo despite rhetoric from extremists on both sides, we're not.  Though shit happens and sometimes citizens are caught up in bureaucratic  nightmares, some bad laws on the books, but by and large, this is a real good country for freedom, imo. 

I am amazed that people blow off encroaching, overwhelming power with hey, I am good.  The government is giving me goodies so why worry.  I say go for it. The going tit for tat on this freedom or that freedom is a specious argument when it makes you comfortable with the government detaining US citizens indefinitely without trial or accusing and killing US citizens without open review.  What part of: "you lessen the rights of one without due process you lessen the rights of all" is not being gotten here. President Obama blighted his legacy when he signed into law indefinite detention without charge or trial into law.

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by moment

[thelerner]

Imo its important not to focus on only  one side, and when it's reversed you ignore changes for the good. 

 

Some people keep themselves constantly enraged.  There are good fights to be fought, but recognize when you win, celebrate it, let go of the anger.  We all tell ourselves stories,  be careful of clinging to much to hero in repressed society mode. 

 

My read is many of the encroachments you're talking about have been reversed (not all) and you ignore it because.. well you like feeling outraged so much that when the conditions end, you keep the feeling alive. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by thelerner

[moment]

3 minutes ago, thelerner said:

So.. you only concentrate on one side, and when it's reversed you ignore them?  

Is the point for you to keep yourself constantly enraged?  When things you fight (which is good) are successful, ie ended, you ignore it because you feed on outrage.  Gotta keep it going.  There can't be good.  You are the hero living in a dark repressive nation is your narrative. 

 

My read is many of the encroachments you're talking about have been reversed (not all) and you ignore it because.. well you like feeling outraged so much that when the conditions end, you keep the feeling alive. 

 

You jump to many false conclusions.  I am not enraged and I am not ignoring your quest for a give and take on freedoms. I just believe that the argument that, I have enough freedoms so my government legitimizing unconstitutional and immoral actions is okay, is not worth contributing any time to. 

[Marblehead]

Interesting discussion guys.  Please continue to see if you are able to reach a few agreements.

 

 

[thelerner]

I see your point.  Yet there is an ebb and flow to this.  Many caught in the flow are terrorist and/or terrorist sympathizers.  It's terrible for those falsely accused, yet for the majority I can't work up much sympathy for.  On the otherhand, the system needs to work with integrity.  There should be changes to stop unconstitutional behavior but don't expect it after traumatic events.  

[Lost in Translation]

Happy Mid-Term Election Day to all Bums in the US and her territories!

 

I hope you vote, and I hope you get what you want. What I want is to evict Maxine Waters from the 43rd Congressional District so now's my chance...

 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by Lost in Translation

[Marblehead]

Thanks.  I will be leaving shortly to cast my votes.

 

I hope your want materializes.

 

 

[moment]

My apologies.  I take a five day retreat twice a year.  This time it was the Olympic National Park.  I leave all electronics behind.

I am not going to do nit-picking point by point trivial time-wasting arguing here because it is a useless waste of time that never gets anyone anywhere.

 

What I will do is list some of the freedoms that I believe are a lot less than thirty years ago.

 

1. We no longer have the right to personal time.

Most developed nations recognize that the right to the "pursuit of happiness” includes the ability to enjoy leisure time – in the evenings, on weekends, and on vacation. But each of these rights is being lost to the systematic reversal of gains that Americans first started making in the 19th century.The US is one of the few developed nations that doesn't require employers to offer paid vacation time to their employees. Employees are increasingly unable to take the vacation time they've been promised.

 

2. . Our American liberties end at the workplace door.

If you have a job, the Freedom Train stops at the workplace door. More employees are hired on a part-time or temporary basis to deny them rights and benefits. Many of your privacy rights are gone.

Free speech? You can be fired for expressing political views online, even when you're not at work. As employment lawyer Mark Trapp told Bloomberg Business Week, the“freedom to speak your mind doesn’t really exist in work spaces.” Or, in some cases, outside it.

3.The attacking of Medicare, one of our most popular government programs, and defending one of our nation's least popular institutions, HMOs. In fighting for Medicare Advantage's HMO subsidies and resisting wider access to public health insurance, Americans are being robbed of the freedom to make their own medical decisions.

4.We're losing the ability to rise up, earn a decent living, or work in the career of our choice mainly due to an over-concentration of money going to about 1% of the population.  The USA had a decent middle class, but, that is being rapidly eroded.

5. We've lost our right to privacy.

The CEOs of Facebook and Google have both said essentially the same thing: The age of privacy has ended. Get over it.

Privacy is supposed to be an essential right. Yet Americans who claim they'd defend it to the death cheerfully sacrifice it every day to play Mafia Wars. Or to search for a celebrity. Or to connect with high school classmates they never really liked anyway.

Internet companies sell our personal data for profit, often by using cookies on our computers to track our activity. Facebook sold users' video rental records. Google pulled Americans' personal information via WiFi when it created Street View. Apple iPhones were tracking and storing their owners' movements.

The government is already using corporate data, sometimes without subpoenas. Corporations have voluntarily allowed 

the government to use their technology to spy on citizens, included one reported case where the government placed a spy server at an ATT location to track the activities of its subscribers. There's a lot more that we don't know.

We were taught that a person' home is his or her castle. But our electronic devices have breached the castle walls, and have placed spies in our living rooms, dens … and bedrooms. Americans, especially conservatives, should be demanding that corporations give us back our privacy rights.

6. We're losing the right to representative democracy.

On issue after issue, the wishes of most Americans are ignored or marginalized by the nation's political and media elite. Views that are held by most Republicans – and in some cases even by most Tea Party members – are dismissed as “extreme” inside the Beltway. While 75 percent of most Americans and 76 percent of Tea Party supporters opposed Social Security cuts to balance the budget, leaders in both political parties were meeting to negotiate those cuts. (They were scuttled by a fallout between President Obama and House Speaker John Boehner; similar cuts were being negotiated between Speaker Newt Gingrich and President Bill Clinton when the Monica Lewinsky scandal erupted.)

Most Americans want tighter control on US banks, and that's considered politically impossible. They want much higher taxes for millionaires, which is also dismissed. Meanwhile, the nation continues to pursue policies that benefit the most unpopular institutions in the nation, according to that Gallup poll: big corporations, HMOs, and Wall Street banks. The only thing on on Gallup's list that's more unpopular than these three institutions? Congress.

In the words of Corey Robin, “It’s long past time for us to start talking and arguing about ... the principle of freedom.”

Edited November 9, 2018 by moment

[Pilgrim]

On 11/3/2018 at 1:03 AM, moment said:

 

The president now decides whether a person will receive a trial in the federal courts or in a military tribunal, a system that has been ridiculed around the world for lacking basic due process protections.

The president may now order warrantless surveillance, including a new capability to force companies and organizations to turn over information on citizens’ finances, communications and associations. Bush acquired this sweeping power under the Patriot Act in 2001, and in 2011, and this power has been extended including searches of everything from business documents to library records. The government can use “national security letters” to demand, without probable cause, that organizations turn over information on citizens — and order them not to reveal the disclosure to the affected party. 

The government now routinely uses secret evidence to detain individuals and employs secret evidence in federal and military courts. It also forces the dismissal of cases against the United States by simply filing declarations that the cases would make the government reveal classified information that would harm national security — a claim made in a variety of privacy lawsuits and largely accepted by federal judges without question. Even legal opinions, cited as the basis for the government’s actions under the Bush and Obama administrations, have been classified. This allows the government to claim secret legal arguments to support secret proceedings using secret evidence.  The Patriot act now allows the surveillance and monitoring of US citizens without justifying cause or allowing review. 

The government has successfully pushed for immunity for companies that assist in warrantless surveillance of citizens, blocking the ability of citizens to challenge the violation of privacy.

The administration uses GPS devices to monitor every move of targeted citizens without securing any court order or review.

 

Sadly knew this would be the case when the Muslim bastards took the towers down. How is this even a surprise is more shocking. (That is if it is a surprise)

 

Knew this would remain the case after formation of the TSA. I doubt we will ever be rid of them now.

 

I will even take you back to the early 1990’s when the ARPANET was released to the public for cough, cough, ahem public development.

 

I said it back then. Uh oh we’re stuffed now! They will get the people to grow there own hemp, weave their own rope and hang liberty and privacy with it.

 

One day you will be forced to pay your taxes online and everything everyone does will be tracked and sadly the population will be too stupid to comprehend this.

 

T.V evangelists were worried about the mark of the beast, please how droll and singularly unimaginative.

 

We are all tagged now. Believe it. I.P. Addresses, MAC identification. You name it cameras and microphones in every device and every device uses GPS it is everywhere this makes the movie 1984 look tame by comparison.

 

Your only defense is to live a righteous clean life and pray what defines that does not turn upside down from the country sliding into a cess pool of democracy that wishes to throw out the constitution which is rule of law not tyranny  of the masses or masses sentiment.

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Pilgrim

[Marblehead]

Not a very bright future but not unrealistic either.

 

But I will remain an Anarchist as long as I can.