The tendency to think people of old were dumb

[sustainablefarm86]

I think there is a tendency to think people from the past were dumber, didn't think through things and all those other thoughts that have relation to 

 

I'm born in the 21st, WE HAVE COMPUTERS AND CALCULATORS, WE HAVE THE ROCKET therefore I'm smarter and cleverer than them 

 

This spans from the 1900s to 100k years ago. While they might have not been better intelectually, they weren't necessarily dumb and any less clever than we are

 

Some of it might be true, maybe not. What do you think about it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Actually, as an enthusiastic student of old scientific literature (in the areas of both occult and natural sciences), I am frequently amazed what little known gems can be found there.

[silent thunder]

I recall having that notion as a boy, but one day in my teens it struck me hard that we are not descended from the infirm and the easily duped.  We are the descendents of the agile, endurant, adaptive, clever, creative hominids who survived and eventually thrived to pass on their virtues and attributes.

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I recall having that notion as a boy, but one day in my teens it struck me hard that we are not descended from the infirm and the easily duped.  We are the descendents of the agile, endurant, adaptive, clever, creative hominids who survived and eventually thrived to pass on their virtues and attributes.

I was going to say something like that but you have said it much better than I would have.

 

[windwalker]

Edited November 4, 2018 by windwalker

[windwalker]

7 hours ago, King Jade said:

Some of it might be true, maybe not. What do you think about it?

 

The reverse is also true for some feeling those of the past had more wisdom than those of today.  

 

They look for answers from the past ignoring the present, trying to understand the future.

[windwalker]

Humans are considered tripartite beings.

 

In most belief systems it's expressed in many different ways.

 

I feel with the Advent of modern technology, the inner parts are able to express themselves in a way that they could only do in the past with a lot of training and discipline.

 

The problem of course being that without this training and discipline there is no real understanding or control.  It's not a synergistic whole.

 

[wandelaar]

To remove the illusion that nowadays we are (much) smarter than the people of long ago just study the philosophy, science and technology of old civilizations such as Greece, India and China. You will see that they were very smart people indeed. The only difference is that in terms of technology and science we today are more advanced. But that isn't because we are any smarter than them, but only because we have access to the accumulative experience, research and knowledge of the smart people of the past. 

[windwalker]

7 hours ago, King Jade said:

 

I'm born in the 21st, WE HAVE COMPUTERS AND CALCULATORS, WE HAVE THE ROCKET therefore I'm smarter and cleverer than them 

 

It might be better to draw a distinction between wisdom , understanding and knowledge.

 

With wisdom one gains understanding of what to do with knowledge.

 

It might be fair to say in today's time we have more understanding and knowledge then ancestors of the past.

 

 we don't seem to have done much in gaining the wisdom to understand how to best put it to use.

 

Which depending on one's viewpoint might make the ancestors of the past seem more wise or less.

 

There  is a fiction that I note about native peoples of the past and their relationship with the world they lived in.

 

In another thread, I attempted to show that what they did was not much different then what are called First World peoples did or do today.

 

The only difference is the technology.  The problems of today are tied to those of the past, brought forth into the present.

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

17 minutes ago, windwalker said:

With wisdom one gains understanding of what to do with knowledge.

How many times have I spoke to this?  Many, I am sure.

 

Wisdom is what allows us to properly use our knowledge for our self and others.

 

[windwalker]

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by windwalker

[freeform]

Take for example the relatively new ‘discovery’ of the fascia. 

 

Only in in the last 10 or so years have modern people started to realise the importance of it.

 

Yet there are systems of martial arts, medicine and spiritual cultivation that have used and talked about this structure for many hundreds of years.

[doc benway]

A little off topic but, in the same vein, I have recently observed a tendency to think that others are less intelligent based on a whole host of factors - age, gender, race, political ideology, religious belief and devotion, appearance, education, profession or lack of same, geographical location, and so on... While there is a tendency to consider myself to be sophisticated and cultivated enough to look beyond such things, be open-minded, and non-judgmental; close, unflinching, and careful observation reveals some surprising things.

 

I was recently at an intensive meditation retreat combined with small group discussion sessions and it showed me some subtle but real judgments and bias towards the people in my group. Once I opened up and listened with as little inner noise (eg judgment, bias, inner dialogue) as possible, I was astounded by just how much value there was in taking in what each person offered - each brought a completely unique perspective and in embracing each one my own limits and boundaries weakened, broadening my own perspective. The result was a very deep sense of appreciation for each individual and a developing sense of community in the group that continues to deepen even weeks after the retreat concluded. For the first time, I'm beginning to understand the power of community in a spiritual context.

 

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, King Jade said:

I think there is a tendency to think people from the past were dumber, didn't think through things and all those other thoughts that have relation to 

 

I'm born in the 21st, WE HAVE COMPUTERS AND CALCULATORS, WE HAVE THE ROCKET therefore I'm smarter and cleverer than them 

 

This spans from the 1900s to 100k years ago. While they might have not been better intelectually, they weren't necessarily dumb and any less clever than we are

 

Some of it might be true, maybe not. What do you think about it?

 

 

I have studied this a fair bit. I tried to answer a similar question like this yesterday ..... and got a rather  twisted answer .

 

 

 

So I will read more here and wait a bit, to see how this pans out.

[windwalker]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Take for example the relatively new ‘discovery’ of the fascia. 

 

Only in in the last 10 or so years have modern people started to realise the importance of it.

 

Yet there are systems of martial arts, medicine and spiritual cultivation that have used and talked about this structure for many hundreds of years.

 

Its not a new discovery.  

 

Not really correct....

what they talk about is the way they use this in what ever discipline they practice

that has yet to be validated out side of the practices they practice.

 

For example in the taiji world, fascia has come to be one of

the new buzz words in attempting to explain the how, and why it works..

 

Quote

“Once you say something is not well known,” Hutchinson says, “then as far as science is concerned, as far as evidence-based medicine is concerned, that’s where you stop. You don’t elevate it to some other level of significance.” https://io9.gizmodo.com/how-a-mysterious-body-part-called-fascia-is-challenging-1598939224

 

[Nungali]

" With wisdom one gains understanding of what to do with knowledge.  "

 

10 hours ago, Marblehead said:

How many times have I spoke to this?  Many, I am sure.

 

probably more times than I have written the following     ....

 

10 hours ago, Marblehead said:

 

Wisdom is what allows us to properly use our knowledge for our self and others.

 

 

In the Kabbalistic arrangement (on the Tree of Life )   Knowledge is just below the Supernal triangle, it is attributed to Daath - in 'The Abyss'. Above that - the 'base line' of the Supernal Triangle  is  Binah (understanding) and Chokmah (wisdom) .

 

The implications are ;  knowledge, unregulated, can be dangerous if it is not modified by higher forces but it is something that should be gathered and accumulated .  What to do with it and how  and when to apply it , one needs understanding.  How to use that understanding and knowledge and the effects it has (according to one's desires or intent) is wisdom.   Yes, 'for ourselves and others', particularly in the case of those in potions of power and control.

 

[The story of King Solomon and the two women claiming one baby is a classic example ;  he ordered a seemingly horrible solution, yet knowing and understanding the forces of human nature and motherhood he was able to make a good resolution. ]

 

These polarised  forces are manifested 'below' on a more material plane with  Chesed and Geburah - Mercy and Power  ;

 

" Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil."

 

 

[wandelaar]

What in view of the Kabbala is the difference between knowledge and understanding?

[thelerner]

We have some big advantages.  These computer thingies give us access to almost all the accumulated facts and information in the world.  If we work hard enough a world of learning opportunities is open to us in ways that didn't exist in the past.  The world's gotten smaller. 

 

We have some big disadvantages.  It's a world of distraction.  Some of the best routes of learning, the classical path of novice disciplining to a master of an art, is largely gone.  Given unlimited choices, we never find our passions or dig deep enough into them.  Too many of our Da Vinci's are caught up playing video games. 

[zerostao]

speaking of da Vinci, rather Leonardo da Vinci speaking about ancients

 

and Johan Joachim Winkelmann adds;

"There is but one way for the moderns to become great, and perhaps unequalled; I mean, by imitating the ancients."

 

It is a no brainer, really. Ancient Greeks had already figured out everything before Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle dumbed us down.

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

38 minutes ago, thelerner said:

We have some big advantages.  These computer thingies give us access to almost all the accumulated facts and information in the world.  If we work hard enough a world of learning opportunities is open to us in ways that didn't exist in the past.  The world's gotten smaller. 

 

We have some big disadvantages.  It's a world of distraction.  Some of the best routes of learning, the classical path of novice disciplining to a master of an art, is largely gone.  Given unlimited choices, we never find our passions or dig deep enough into them.  Too many of our Da Vinci's are caught up playing video games. 

 

Or developing them to undreamt-of heights.

[wandelaar]

5 hours ago, zerostao said:

It is a no brainer, really. Ancient Greeks had already figured out everything before Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle dumbed us down.

 

A huge simplification and simply not true! Socrates, Plato and Aristotle had their own perspectives to add. And for instance Archimedes lived well after Aristotle. And further Hellenistic philosophers had some interesting and relatively novel things (nothing is absolutely novel) to say about the art of living well.

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by wandelaar

[wandelaar]

5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Or developing them to undreamt-of heights.

 

That would only make matters worse. Many particularly young people have become the play things of their own digital devices.

[windwalker]

44 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

That would only make matters worse. Many particularly young people have become the play things of their own digital devices.

 

When virtual reality matures and the prices come down.  It will be a real problem.

 

 

Quote

Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly.

 

I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again.

 

Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.

 

Between a man and a butterfly there is necessarily a distinction. The transition is called the transformation of material things.

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by windwalker

[zerostao]

7 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

A huge simplification and simply not true! Socrates, Plato and Aristotle had their own perspectives to add. And for instance Archimedes lived well after Aristotle. And further Hellenistic philosophers had some interesting and relatively novel things (nothing is absolutely novel) to say about the art of living well.

 

You are entitled to your opinions and perspectives. Aristotle said excellence is the mean between the extremes. And that sounds like mediocrity to me. I agree with him on friendship. To truly live, as an artist (which is the highest calling) one must do edge work at the extremes. If one is always safely in the middle where are the true lessons learned in that?

I am all about simplification dear one. If one is not up achieving being and merely wishes (existence) to enjoy a safe life, then Aristotle appeals.

Karl Popper and Hegel appreciate the Pre-Socratics as much as I do.

Pythagoras, Solon, Heraclitus, Parmenides, Democritus, the Sophists, Thales, the Seven Sages,,,

and many of the earlier ancients were powerful poets and healers as well, Plato was rather conflicted over poetry going from thinking poets should be outlawed to claiming himself to be the great poet LMAO and Plato was more correct than Aristotle on several key accounts, but I digress.

EDIT>

I wouldn't want to leave out Empedocles. His CV consists of philosopher, POET, follower of Pythagoras, inventor of the four element theory of nature, put forth one of the earliest theories of particle physics, democratic politician, materialist, divine being, healer, mystical theologian, shamanic magician, immortal, can revive the dead, control winds and rains. An impressive resume and one that suits us well as we face down nihilism. Not only that but Aristotle credits Empedocles with the invention of rhetoric.
What Empedocles brings to the table is simplicity. He gave us the four element theory (earth, air, fire, water). Empedocles tells us of a cosmic cycle of growth and decay where two personified cosmic forces compete in an eternal struggle for supremacy. We know the two competing forces as Love and Strife. Empedocles medical prescription to combat the vexation and strife of nihilism is a healthy dose of love.
Still, the two personified forces compete as they cycle through. In the highest state of either Love or Strife, no life can exist in our world. For life to exist in our world there needs to be a mixture of Love and Strife in a state of flux.

The two extremes: Love, Strife

and Aristotle avoids them, safely

(not sure if I need to cite myself)

 

2nd edit>>

If one is adept with their meditation, the missing lines of On Nature (Empedocles) will reveal themselves.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by zerostao

[wandelaar]

@ zerostao

 

You have a right to live in your own fantasy world were facts don't matter, and factual criticism is best ignored. Happily we have an ignore button for those cases. Goodbye.