interrupted meditation session

[Edward M]

Hi There, whenever I meditate at home, I keep talking involuntarily things that are not from my self. 

 

The general theme is that of conditioning me not to meditate.  

 

I can't fully tell if this is disconnected aspects of the psyche, spirits being channeled involuntarily, or the occult trying to stop me.

 

Anyone able to tell what is happening? 

 

Peace 

[Marblehead]

14 minutes ago, Edward M said:

Hi There, whenever I meditate at home, I keep talking involuntarily things that are not from my self. 

Of course they are from your self - from your unconscious mind.

 

That is why it is important in meditation to allow those thoughts to arise naturally, pay them no attention, and allow them to float away when they don't get the attention they want.

 

If those thoughts are negative you should try to find their source.  Maybe some things in your life that you repressed and really need to deal with.

 

 

[Edward M]

Thanks Marblehead, makes sense apart from that I can't stop saying them out loud.  

 

I hope you are right, time will tell.  

 

Thanks,

Edward 

[thelerner]

That incessant mind noise is a hard nut to crack.  Often we can't stop it, but if we don't feed it or judge it, the mind settles down.

 

I'll start my meditations with a few rounds of counting breaths,  1 to 10, repeat a couple cycles.  In the beginning that was hard and I'd count the in and out parts separately, which was easier.  In any case it throws the mind a bone and allows me to move on quietly later. 

 

imo, often its best to consider oneself as the source of a problem, cause that's the thing we have some control over.  Spirits, neighbors, insects, heat & cold, not so much. 

[dwai]

If you're aware of the thoughts and also aware of articulating them during meditation, then you are farther along than you think. Key is to not resist or force anything. Just start your meditation with the thought "let whatever arises arise, I will just observe where it goes"...and then sit. Forget about the clock, method, etc. Just sit. 

[Jeff]

On 11/5/2018 at 6:13 AM, Edward M said:

Hi There, whenever I meditate at home, I keep talking involuntarily things that are not from my self. 

 

The general theme is that of conditioning me not to meditate.  

 

I can't fully tell if this is disconnected aspects of the psyche, spirits being channeled involuntarily, or the occult trying to stop me.

 

Anyone able to tell what is happening? 

 

Peace 

 

Marblehead described it well. You (and pretty much everyone) has many subconscious thoughts running through your mind that you are not directly aware of.  When you meditate, and quiet your mind, you start to go deeper into your subconscious. The energy of those subconscious thought threads starts to become part of conscious mind, so your conscious mind manifests them on at a vocal level.  All pretty natural. Some people would feel it as emotions, and some others may feel it more physically and get it more as spontaneous movements (or vibrations).

[Edward M]

Thanks for your replies!

 

I can see the truth in what all of you say, its just hard to see it that way in the midst of meditation when usually the spoken words are threatening, or abusive towards myself.  

 

Ive also had this happen when praying, I was praying and another voice cut straight through my own and said something completely irrelevant to what I was saying. 

 

Sub conscious mind is a powerful thing, I guess I've brought all this on my self by the way I lived before.  

 

Cheers!  

[Marblehead]

4 hours ago, Edward M said:

Sub conscious mind is a powerful thing, I guess I've brought all this on my self by the way I lived before.  

If you are going to beat your self do it with a wet noodle.  No need for abuse.

 

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Edward M said:

Thanks for your replies!

 

I can see the truth in what all of you say, its just hard to see it that way in the midst of meditation when usually the spoken words are threatening, or abusive towards myself.  

 

Ive also had this happen when praying, I was praying and another voice cut straight through my own and said something completely irrelevant to what I was saying. 

 

Sub conscious mind is a powerful thing, I guess I've brought all this on my self by the way I lived before.  

 

Cheers!  

You are neither your conscious mind nor your subconscious  

 

you are the awarness that is witnessing all the drama and the comedies being played out by them. 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

You are neither your conscious mind nor your subconscious  

 

you are the awarness that is witnessing all the drama and the comedies being played out by them. 

 

All witnessing (and perception in general) is of the mind...  

[Zen Pig]

Just my two cents, from only my experience which might be very different from others experience. .  the idea of subconsciousness and consciousness, are only words. words are just pointers, to what cannot be explained or divided. I am starting to see the value of both the thinking mind,  the subconsciousness mind, the body, and everything else. It seems that, at least for me,  the issue was always the idea of the separation of what was and is never separate.  my thoughts, my emotions, my body,  the snow I am sitting in,  the birds in the trees singing, is all undivided in its totality.  Not suggesting that "nothing is real" or that everything but consciousness is illusion.  Rather, I am suggesting, that for me, nothing is separate from what we call consciousness, nothing is left out.  I have sit in the forest for years. sometimes a forest worker will walk by with a chain saw.  most of them will see me sitting and say , "hay, sorry to interrupt, but got to use the chain saw for just over there, and the noise might bother you"...... I just thank them, and say, "no problem,"  because the chain saw,  the deer walking by, the wind, is all a part of my sitting.  So when I use to have negative thoughts come up,  I just let them do what they needed to do. did not push them down, or try to change them.  they just seemed to loose there impact or power, once I did not try to either fix, or resist or obsess on them. sorry for the long rant.  got to stop having my afternoon coffee. LOL

[dwai]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

All witnessing (and perception in general) is of the mind...  

That which illuminates the mind is the witness. Mind is just a process. 

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

That which illuminates the mind is the witness. Mind is just a process. 

 

And down the rabbit hole we go...

 

So you are saying that you can witness something without a "mind"?  That you can perceive things without a mind?  If so, I would appreciate an example.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

And down the rabbit hole we go...

 

So you are saying that you can witness something without a "mind"?  That you can perceive things without a mind?  If so, I would appreciate an example.

 The mind is just a process in awareness. So mind doesn't witness...awareness does. Its like saying "eyes see". No eyes don't see. You see...using your eyes. Same with the mind too...you witness, using the mind

Edited November 7, 2018 by dwai

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 The mind is just a process in awareness. So mind doesn't witness...awareness does. Its like saying "eyes see". No eyes don't see. You see...using your eyes. Same with the mind too...you witness, using the mind

 

So basically you are just defining mind as something just like the eyes. 

 

It could also simply be that what you call “awareness” is simply a process running inside the mind. As an example, we know that the mind keeps subconscious processes going when there is no “awareness” (as in deep sleep). But, there is no example of awareness continuing when the mind is shut down.

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

So basically you are just defining mind as something just like the eyes. 

 

It could also simply be that what you call “awareness” is simply a process running inside the mind. As an example, we know that the mind keeps subconscious processes going when there is no “awareness” (as in deep sleep). But, there is no example of awareness continuing when the mind is shut down.

  

There is 100% awareness in deep sleep. I am aware. I don't have any experiences (no mind). But awareness is there. Deep sleep is not absence of awareness, but it is rather awareness of absence. 

This can be established using logic. 

 

1. Look at something. How do you see it? Using your eyes. 
2. Close your eyes. You are aware that your eyes are closed. That means you are not your mind.
3. Now with all your attention, watch for the next thought to arise in your mind. You won't have any if you give it your 100% attention. You are now aware of your mind in action, and your mind stopped. You are not your mind. 

Nothing you do can ever negate your awareness. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by dwai

[Jeff]

38 minutes ago, dwai said:

  

There is 100% awareness in deep sleep. I am aware. I don't have any experiences (no mind). But awareness is there. Deep sleep is not absence of awareness, but it is rather awareness of absence. 

This can be established using logic. 

 

1. Look at something. How do you see it? Using your eyes. 
2. Close your eyes. You are aware that your eyes are closed. That means you are not your mind.
3. Now with all your attention, watch for the next thought to arise in your mind. You won't have any if you give it your 100% attention. You are now aware of your mind in action, and your mind stopped. You are not your mind. 

Nothing you do can ever negate your awareness. 

 

Sorry, dont get your logic at all. How does closing my eyes show that I am not my mind?  I used my mind to give the directive to close my eyes. Then my mind monitors what happens with my eyes closed.

 

Maybe it is simply you have a much more limited definition of the word “mind” then I do.  

 

[dwai]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Sorry, dont get your logic at all. How does closing my eyes show that I am not my mind?  I used my mind to give the directive to close my eyes. Then my mind monitors what happens with my eyes closed.

 

Maybe it is simply you have a much more limited definition of the word “mind” then I do.  

 

Mind means  the stream of thoughts. That’s all. What you call mind is essentially what I call awareness  

[Jeff]

54 minutes ago, dwai said:

Mind means  the stream of thoughts. That’s all. What you call mind is essentially what I call awareness  

 

So for you, mind is simply data flowing, and awareness is the analysis and acting on that data? Also, is awareness what gives intent to do something, like with opening and closing your eyes?

Edited November 7, 2018 by Jeff

[s1va]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Maybe it is simply you have a much more limited definition of the word “mind” then I do.  

 

It feels like you are using the term mind broadly as it is used in Lankavatara Sutra.  I think Dwai is going with the classical Hindu definition.  As per this, mind is only a very small aspect.  There are 4 things that make up what is classified as mind broadly in other places.  Manas (mind) - which is the seat of the emotions, buddhi or intellect, or the thinker, ahamkara or ego that causes the 'I' thought. And finally the chitta or the subconscious or the memory store.

 

To me, it also feels like what Dwai means by awarenesses is just the same as the universal mind as referred to in the Lankavatara Sutra. At least this is how I see it.  And the different meanings to the terms may be the cause for some confusion.

 

But the question you asked about the awareness or universal mind also ultimately empty still remains.  Not sure if Dwai would agree awareness is totally empty.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

So for you, mind is simply data flowing, and awareness is the analysis and acting on that data? Also, is awareness what gives intent to do something, like with opening and closing your eyes?

This is an old discussion between us  

 

The transactional world activities are predicated on a combination of four processes that arise in and from awareness. 

 

• Manas - The stream of thoughts is the mind
• Ahamkara - Identification of self with body-mind apparatus
• Buddhi - intellect (capability of thought generation)
• Chitta - storehouse of impressions and memories

The act of opening or closing our eyes are predicated on the functioning of a combination of these four processes.  At the end of the day, every activity only happens in awareness. 

Edited November 7, 2018 by dwai
typo correction

[dwai]

1 minute ago, s1va said:

 

It feels like you are using the term mind broadly as it is used in Lankavatara Sutra.  I think Dwai is going with the classical Hindu definition.  As per this, mind is only a very small aspect.  There are 4 things that make up what is classified as mind broadly in other places.  Manas (mind) - which is the seat of the emotions, buddhi or intellect, or the thinker, ahamkara or ego that causes the 'I' thought. And finally the chitta or the subconscious or the memory store.

 

To me, it also feels like what Dwai means by awarenesses is just the same as the universal mind as referred to in the Lankavatara Sutra. At least this is how I see it.  And the different meanings to the terms may be the cause for some confusion.

1 minute ago, s1va said:

But the question you asked about the awareness or universal mind also ultimately empty still remains.  Not sure if Dwai would agree awareness is totally empty.

Awareness is not only empty but also full of infinite potentiality

[s1va]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

Awareness is not only empty but also full of infinite potentiality

 

I guess this is the part where Jeff will disagree .

 

One emerges from Dao.  Not the same as Dao, as you have implied above!

[dwai]

Just now, s1va said:

 

I guess this is the part where Jeff will disagree .

 

One emerges from Dao.  Not the same as Dao, as you have implied above!

The One is essentially the arising of the sense of "I" in awareness imho.  

So in a way, One is Pure Awareness presenting itself to itself with a sense of self-awareness. As it arises,  through various mechanisms (as posited by various theories about creation - like the five coverings aka pancha kanchukas, etc) it veils itself and a universe of subject and objects is created. 

 

[s1va]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

The One is essentially the arising of the sense of "I" in awareness imho.  

So in a way, One is Pure Awareness presenting itself to itself with a sense of self-awareness. As it arises,  through various mechanisms (as posited by various theories about creation - like the five coverings aka pancha kanchukas, etc) it veils itself and a universe of subject and objects is created. 

 

 

That sounds close to the definition of Shiva in KS. But I don't see anything about Emptiness in that.