Taoist Immortal vs Buddha

[Eden]

Would a Taoist Immortal be considered a Buddha? Or would they be considered more like a Bodhisattva or even an arhat? 

[Cheshire Cat]

It depends on the the traits of different schools and philosophies. 

 

From a Buddhist perspective, it should be understood that the rank of a daoist immortal is inferior to the rank of Buddha, and even inferior to the rank of bodhisattva because of an imperfect understanding of emptiness. 

 

From a daoist perspective, a Buddha neglects the cultivation of the body, thus missing an essential element to achieve perfection. 

According to Cha Pi Chen and his tradition, a Buddha cultivates Nature, but he doesn't cultivate life. 

 

[effilang]

Dare I say, that an imperfect understanding of emptiness is a perfect understanding of emptiness : )
 

Quote

It depends on the the traits of different schools and philosophies. 

 

Most definitely so, and I'd say this is FROM a very NARROW, Daoist perspective and from a very NARROW Buddhist perspective.

[Fa Xin]

On 11/6/2018 at 11:08 PM, Eden said:

Would a Taoist Immortal be considered a Buddha? Or would they be considered more like a Bodhisattva or even an arhat? 

 

No, I'd say they are different stages.

 

Taoist Immortal sounds the coolest, though... 

[Patrick Brown]

They achieve the same thing but Daoism is seen as more physical and Buddhism is more mental. I personally see Buddhism as more direct, think Zen, as it kind of shouts out what enlightenment is all about although, ironically, the art is where it's at! The Daoist route achieves enlightenment by striving for physical perfection through discipline. Of course an individual will choose the route most suitable to their nature.  

 

The outcome of each school is the same yet is perceived as different:

Buddhist's: Know they don't know

Daoist's: Don't know they know  

[Marblehead]

But regardless of their differences and similarities, they all die.

 

Oh well.

 

[exorcist_1699]

On 2018/11/8 at 6:42 PM, Marblehead said:

But regardless of their differences and similarities, they all die.

 

Oh well.

 

 

Those who can't  live forever "physically' ( note that Taoist sense of physical is  a little  different from those of science )  ,of course, can't be called immortal;

 

Taoist highest achievement is not just a forever life, but life form beyond space and time ,  as we are told:

 

" 聚則成形, 散則成氣" 

 

(" While  it gathers and consolidates  , it appears to us as  forms ; while  it  dissipates , it appears  to us  as qi "  )

 

And,  such a process can be manipulated at  a superb  taoist immortal's  own will.

 

So, Taoist highest achievement looks like some kind of teleportation,  the only difference is that instead of dealing with jing-qi-shen , in Western science and technology, they emphasize how to build up some kind of physical device so that matter  or energy , in the form of  particle, field , or big molecule can go from this place to other place without traversing the space between them. Of course,  whether a man after having teleported,  is still a man gets  his  original  mind or character,   hardly  is their concern. 

 

On the other hand,  Taoists argue ( in  many  of its legends about immortals ) that they already succeeded in some kind of teleportation as jing-qi-shen on pre-celestial level is , in fact , a whole;  it is only after its having embodied in a body ( fallen  to post-celestial level ), that it is split  and blocked by physical obstacles and timely intervals ( as we live a   post-celestial life, we are limited by past-present -future );  a return to pre-celestial status enables us not only  live inside this  body, but outside it , in fact,  live wherever we like ; not just live as  one self,  but  as many split selves  simultaneously , linked to each other  through quantum entanglement , maybe  :- )   .

Edited November 19, 2018 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

On the other hand,  Taoists argue

I won't argue with what you said as it appears to be consistent with the little I know of Taoist Alchemy.

 

However, for now I will continue to hold to the concept of "transmutation".  It is consistent with the Taoist concept of "creation and destruction" as well as "birth, life, death".  And it is also consistent with science and my personal experiences.

 

[flowing hands]

Of course the first Buddha had to be given his ever lasting spirit life by the Jade Emperor. There is no such science that teaches how to cultivate to become an Immortal in Buddhism. Buddha never wrote down his teachings. All spiritual beings that live in the Heavens must first go before the Jade Emperor to be given their power and position. The difference is that those that follow and understand the Dao, cultivate their own power until they become 'realized'. Once in this state, matter separates from spirit, matter dies and the spirit energy is set free. Once free, ultimate power is accessible as an Immortal. Dao cultivators go through challenging and adverse lives in their path to Immortal-hood. Not an easy path and not as some think that one can just meditate for a long time a hey presto one's become enlightened   

[Patrick Brown]

The interaction of something and nothing is consciousness and this is the great gateway which is eternally opening and closing. Something and nothing are derived from the causeless cause and perceived as separate and as such are the beginning and end yet eternally one. Enlightenment is realising, accepting and living with it and thus one becomes immortal.

 

There is a large crossover between Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism and other systems/philosophies/religions yet it is not apparent as each will focus on aspects which are more easily digested, and consequently more easily disseminated, as a result of cultural bias. This is not to say that any one system is incomplete but rather that it's tailored to function within the boundaries of a specific cultural-mindset.    

 

The crux of it is:

Death devolves all except the eternal primal perception/consciousness.

We all reappear eternally reborn from our seeds which existed at our last breath as potential.

As we descend into human birth we don appropriate garments. 

Immortals grow towards the same self realisation as in the previous round.

Non Immortals reappear and chase their desires.  

[exorcist_1699]

18 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

The interaction of something and nothing is consciousness and this is the great gateway which is eternally opening and closing. Something and nothing are derived from the causeless cause and perceived as separate and as such are the beginning and end yet eternally one. Enlightenment is realising, accepting and living with it and thus one becomes immortal.

 

 

 

 

From Taoist viewpoint,  whatever consciousness we  get , even Enlightenment , doesn't necessarily  lead us to immortal , it  really depends on how deep, how thorough  our mindless Mind influences our body (  Buddhists hate  to talk about the body  ,  we Taoists don't mind ..) ;   even in Chinese Zen, we get the famous  formula of  how deep  Zen mediation is  in  correspondence with  what effects we get :

 

1) The initial stage of Zen ("初禪念住"  ): No mind and no fluctuations of ideas ;

 

2) The second stage of Zen("二禪息住") : No breathing ;

 

3)The third  stage of Zen ("三禪脈住")  : No heart beat  at all ; 

.

.

.

 

Of course, the highest stage of Taoism ,as mentioned  above ,  is  the qi-lization  of the whole body and consolidation of  it  again at whatever place/ time in this universe at our Mind's own will .

 

People may be astonished by my " careless"   talks  about no breathing and  no heart-beat : Isn't  no  breathing means no oxygen entering  our brain, and it means great harm...?

 

Yes, it is , but what they miss to notice  is  that if  stoppage  of breathing is achieved through a  deliberate no-mind practice, then such a  stoppage   also implies  the initial rise of  the pre-celestial qi,  that means , we have been entering  a stage of using pre-celestial qi to nourish our brain, not post-celestial oxygen .  Saints / immortals  and  the common people  definitely are walking on   every different paths ,  hardly can  people  expect to  live in a totally different life form  only  by just doing some philosophical reasoning or seeing some Hollywood movies ..

Edited November 12, 2018 by exorcist_1699

[Cheshire Cat]

Today, science tells us that the essence of nature is grace.

The goal of psionic wave oscillations is to plant the seeds of rebirth rather than bondage. You and I are messengers of the quantum cycle.

Nothing is impossible.

Humankind has nothing to lose. Who are we? Where on the great journey will we be recreated? We are in the midst of an endless flowering of truth that will remove the barriers to the stratosphere itself.

It can be difficult to know where to begin. How should you navigate this authentic nexus? Have you found your path?

If you have never experienced this reimagining devoid of self, it can be difficult to reflect. The quantum cycle is calling to you via morphogenetic fields. Can you hear it? Although you may not realize it, you are perennial.

Bondage is born in the gap where synchronicity has been excluded. The complexity of the present time seems to demand an invocation of our dreams if we are going to survive. We can no longer afford to live with materialism.

We exist as transmissions. Interconnectedness is the richness of peace, and of us. This life is nothing short of an invocation current of infinite starfire.

[KuroShiro]

15 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

From Taoist viewpoint,  whatever consciousness we  get , even Enlightenment , doesn't necessarily  lead us to immortal , it  really depends on how deep, how thorough  our mindless Mind influences our body (  Buddhists hate  to talk about the body  ,  we Taoists don't mind ..) ;   even in Chinese Zen, we get the famous  formula of  how deep  Zen mediation is  in  correspondence with  what effects we get :

 

1) The initial stage of Zen ("初禪念住"  ): No mind and no fluctuations of ideas ;

 

2) The second stage of Zen("二禪息住") : No breathing ;

 

3)The third  stage of Zen ("三禪脈住")  : No heart beat  at all ; 

 

Are there more stages in Chinese Zen?

From Daoist viewpoint, where do you place the 2nd and 3rd stage?

 

 

15 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Of course, the highest stage of Taoism ,as mentioned  above ,  is  the qi-lization  of the whole body and consolidation of  it  again at whatever place/ time in this universe at our Mind's own will .

 

People may be astonished by my " careless"   talks  about no breathing and  no heart-beat : Isn't  no  breathing means no oxygen entering  our brain, and it means great harm...?

 

Not careless at all, if one studies Chinese Medicine it makes perfect sense.

So, both no breathing/no heart-beat and breathing/heart-beat are natural, how cool is that?

Do you know if the no breathing/no heart-beat are just temporary stages/states (when you first "reach" that stage) or can they be sustained for long periods of time?

 

[doc benway]

The title of this thread sounds like a title for a Trey Parker/Matt Stone cartoon!

[KuroShiro]

4 hours ago, steve said:

The title of this thread sounds like a title for a Trey Parker/Matt Stone cartoon!

 

What about MTV Celebrity Deathmatch?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

9 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

What about MTV Celebrity Deathmatch?

 

Thanks, i was just about to mention that last time a match like this was arranged the Immortal got placed in cooldown for an odd number of centuries and Buddha had to wash his Venerable So-Gone hands a lot to get rid of the reek of urine...

[exorcist_1699]

On 2018/11/13 at 7:35 AM, KuroShiro said:

 

Are there more stages in Chinese Zen?

From Daoist viewpoint, where do you place the 2nd and 3rd stage?

 

 

Not careless at all, if one studies Chinese Medicine it makes perfect sense.

So, both no breathing/no heart-beat and breathing/heart-beat are natural, how cool is that?

Do you know if the no breathing/no heart-beat are just temporary stages/states (when you first "reach" that stage) or can they be sustained for long periods of time?

 

 

From Taoist point of view, it is a process of Shen's reuniting with  Meng ( our  physical life of jing and qi) :  First you can stop your breathing through  having consolidated  a  mindless Mind , not through a deliberate mind ,  for 1~ 2 minutes, then 15 minutes..and longer ;  later you can stop your heart beat  at  your own will ..( just place your finger on your pulse at the wrist but not be distracted , whenever it happens , likely  in a gradual diminishing  process , you can sense it  ;  since you make it happen , you can re-activate it  ) .  Accompanied these with your skin turned back  baby-like,  fallen teeth reborn ..etc, physical immortality becomes something believable, otherwise  all are self-deceit .  I always think that physical  proofs are  more re-liable  than spiritual proofs for   you can get a mental disease  and think yourself   turned into  an immortal or Messiah , but physical proofs can  always be used as reliable counter-checking..

[Small Fur]

On 11/6/2018 at 8:08 PM, Eden said:

Would a Taoist Immortal be considered a Buddha? Or would they be considered more like a Bodhisattva or even an arhat? 

 

 

Enlightenment is the surpassed threshold into transcendent awareness from which the consciousness begins a process of merging with Source itself.  When you experience this, then the terminology used in different traditions dissolves because they never really were. The terms are simply a vessel for delivery, an anchor and a pointer; but its truth is not in its form. So if you want to understand the essential, cultivate yourself from this essential place within yourself: not from the idea of becoming this or that thing out there.

 

Crossing this threshold enters one into the complete spectrum of Consciousness for dissolving impurities- this is experienced by all who have progressed in enlightened wisdom. Each may use their own descriptive term, or select different properties to arbitrarily define qualities of progression, or suggest different methods to practice, but it does not change the essence of the process.  Whereas those prior to enlightened being (such as those who have awakened, or those who are leading healthy lives, or even those who are struggling) are trying to rectify and purify themselves from within mundane or more profound understanding, those who cross this threshold are purifying themselves from within the origin of a transcendent awareness.

 

So the entire path, was always and is always one of purification so that what is pure and original may become us unobstructed through all fields of our manifestation. The differences between the enlightened and unenlightened lies in the origin of connection. Purification and consciousness are the two keys- the body is only one of many ephemeral substrates or fields whereby result may manifest and/or be redistributed through energy into material and then back again into energy.  Therefore, working on these two keys are the most important and will determine the quality of progression in both method and process.

 

And so to address finite terminology…
The thing humans witness as Immortal and the thing humans witness as Buddha are ultimately the same manifestation of One Enlightened Consciousness. From the witness of Xing Dao (the consciousness of the Unnamed Ultimate) there are no longer forms; it is the essence of essence that purifies Being- and the degree to which this refined awareness exists in us depends on our level of completion across this threshold. This means, that Buddhahood and Immortality exist in the same phase of enlightened progression and completion. Here the origin of experience is the same even if some methods of practice through form appear as disparate pathways or processes. The reason for this is because at this phase there is only one Consciousness permeating Being and it is only the residuals of form and/or person in their cleaved multiplicity that appear to have facets which require resolve.

 

 

Did you think Immortals became so without the wisdom of Buddhahood?
Did you not realize that Buddhas are also Immortal?
Enlightenment in its wholeness is a completely unified state encompassing and yet transcending all name, so do not let your mind distract you into ideas…

 

 

 

But let me this point out:

What practical, actual and applied value is this question to the one who has *not come* to this point of experience?
What practical, actual and applied value is this question to the one who has *actually come* to this point of experience?
The answer to both of these is the same: it is *nothing*.  The reason for this may come from two completely different places, yet the origin of why is exactly the same.  Therefore, people who sincerely want to cultivate, need not worry about the answer to this.

 

 

The value of this path is inherent and has little to do with how the world defines it, nor even how you define ‘yourself’. It is not sophistication in intellectual discernment that makes one wise, but discernment of sense beyond sense: this means that the ‘proof’ is not necessarily (exclusively) in the body, nor is it (necessarily only) in the mind; and this is why it is important to continue meditation and cultivation until you can have deep awareness in silence and stillness (from within samadhi) in order to truly understand this.

 

People who are concerned with names, stages, titles and verification processes will take the long path (of hardship) to each (supposedly) arriving stage while (potentially) undermining the very essence of purity within the path. People who struggle to progress along this path and use mind to move energies and orbits are moving through time while attempting to force the nature of phenomena. The more you move through time*, the longer you dwell in karma.  Ultimately there is no time in the enlightened state- it is beyond immediacy and in us it is found through the most profound Presence.

 

We are all capable of accessing this timelessness. Do not thwart your own progress by falling prey to the ego’s desire for achievement and go picking at Buddhas over Immortals, this light body or over that light body: care more for your own heart (the seat of wisdom and shen from which the light of Consciousness emerges through form), for goodness and for honesty (the Virtues necessary for Immortality and Buddhahood), for self-understanding (the deep self-reflection that becomes the turning of the light): then you will know light beyond all body while in this very body. 

 

You will best afford yourself every opportunity to taste the great fruit through the diligence of humble practice.
Therefore, ‘for every one line you read, do ten practices’. This is all that truly matters.

 

 

 

 

 

And a final note, for some of the people on this forum who say they are not concerned with enlightenment:
The essence of why this forum is possible is because those who came to enlightenment shared their wisdoms of the path in all its many forms and methods, and because they continue to hold this light so that all other beings may flourish. That you are drawn to this, that you live at all- this makes you integral to the spiritual progression that is this existence, even in all its mundane guises of form.

 

The light of Buddha is in all of our hearts, in all of our bodies, in all of this universe. You may not think you wish for nor have care to strive for this omnipresent recognition, but do allow yourself this opportunity for such true peace, for such pure love and for this liberation; for this wisdom and grace is beyond any form of thought, body or practice you will ever do- yet it may become all that you do if you open your heart and awareness towards it.

 

 

In every Being is the Immortal Buddha and so may you know it as yourself.

 

 

 

*Note that metaphysical travel to other dimensions may appear timeless or even be timeless but those places are not the form of non-eternality I am pointing to

Edited February 2, 2021 by Small Fur

[dwai]

6 hours ago, Small Fur said:

The essence of why this forum is possible is because those who came to enlightenment shared their wisdoms of the path in all its many forms and methods, and because they continue to hold this light so that all other beings may flourish. That you are drawn to this, that you live at all- this makes you integral to the spiritual progression that is this existence, even in all its mundane guises of form.

 

The light of Buddha is in all of our hearts, in all of our bodies, in all of this universe. You may not think you wish for nor have care to strive for this omnipresent recognition, but do allow yourself this opportunity for such true peace, for such pure love and for this liberation; for this wisdom and grace is beyond any form of thought, body or practice you will ever do- yet it may become all that you do if you open your heart and awareness towards it.

 

 

In every Being is the Immortal Buddha and so may you know it as yourself.

Poignant, powerful and sublime at the same time! 🙏🏾

[RobB]

I particularly liked this bit:

 

What practical, actual and applied value is this question to the one who has *not come* to this point of experience?
What practical, actual and applied value is this question to the one who has *actually come* to this point of experience?
The answer to both of these is the same: it is *nothing*. 

 

Of course, I now have to throw my computer away and get off the internet...

[Maddie]

The TDJ says the Tao that can be spoken isn't the true Tao.

 

The Buddha came along and said "this is the way".

 

Does that mean his way isn't the true Tao?

[anshino23]

The Buddha said the Dharma was a raft. Once you’ve crossed the river and entered the Stream of sages... you are said to enter the pathless path. You no longer need the raft. 
 

That’s why it’s always paradoxical when masters say... 

 

“To seek is to suffer. To seek nothing is bliss.”~ Bodhidharma

Edited February 2, 2021 by anshino23

[Sketch]

its a pretty short fight in "Journey to the West ". Sun Wukong has several kinds of Taoist immortality,  including exposure to Lao Tzu 's magical oven, and Buddha drops a mountain on him. Watch out for that Buddha's palm!

[Small Fur]

On 2/2/2021 at 9:44 AM, dmattwads said:

The TDJ says the Tao that can be spoken isn't the true Tao.

 

The Buddha came along and said "this is the way".

 

Does that mean his way isn't the true Tao?

 

 

 

Beyond Form and Formless in the Myriad of Dreams

 

In the spiritual traditions, we sometimes speak of the formed and the formless. For many this is the idea of the things they can touch and the things they can’t touch, the things we can see and the things we can’t see- this may be the corporeal body vs. the aether of mind-emotion, for others they are the layers of human structure vs. energy (qi), while for some it may be this world vs. other (metaphysical) worlds, or the mundane condition vs. the existential condition.  Whatever your (conscious and unconscious) choice of perspective, as your awareness becomes more subtle, what was once perceived as formless- through increased clarity and awareness, will become formed; and formlessness will take on new dimensions of nuance becoming even more fine… until at last we work on things which are very very fine, things that are very very pure- things which are a part of Nothing. This is the process of refinement to Consciousness- physiologically, psychologically and spiritually, and it happens many times over and over until one comes to completion. So, what you once considered as ‘this’ or ‘that’ will transmute as your experience and perception deepens in nuance and subtly, no matter where your point of reference in understanding began, no matter who you thought you were and what this is.

 

Students, scholars and even some certain spiritual sages may argue with one another because their attachment to experience continues to be rooted in a fixed form- the idea of what is spiritual- be these concepts, rules or structures applied to thoughts, spirits, methods or processes. As this complexity of spiritual knowledge becomes clarified through experiential sense in Consciousness and resolves back in its origin of purity, we discover that the myriad of forms is actually rooted in an incredible simplicity- one that can begin to be directly recognized and understood through samadhi and the passage into non-being:

 

It is not possible to understand the condition of form if we do not know the formless;
and it is hard to know formlessness if we cannot recognize the nature of Emptiness.

 
This evolution in Conscious being is an important aspect integral to what it is to experience spiritual transmutation. It is easy to think or imagine the process of transmutation of the Three Treasures in the tradition of Taoism to be different from the process of evolution of psycho-spiritual virtue in enlightened consciousness of the Buddhist tradition because few have fully recognized its essential source within themselves.  These inseparable aspects of our ontological process are one and the same even if spoken of in different directions, pointing to seemingly different trajectories: they actually direct to one (non-)thing. It is from this origin that you can come to understand that all those myriads of ways were ever really just one way.  It appears as many answers because you are made of the many and think of much, but the truth known by the Enlightened is much more simple, and it is pure. This is why the Buddha “points” and Lao Tzu says “nothing” without desire nor attachment to ‘this or that’, yet both answers arise from a single Consciousness residing in the Empty State.

So the Enlightened teaching is actually just one teaching- and ultimately there is only one lesson. From experience and to use the Taoist perspective of terms, I would put this metaphysical spiritual process to Consciousness like this: “A thousand transmutations leads to a single essence whose truth lies in Emptiness”

 

So as you say above, you hear Buddha’s words as a lot of ‘somethings’ and you hear Lao Tzu’s word as one mysterious ‘nothing’, but the reality is a single inspiration of unified light that has no words, for those who are enlightened share One True Consciousness. This is why these teachings are not the practice themselves, yet they are found in and through the practices- and this is also why the deeper key to any form is unlocked through Consciousness (ie. shen, Buddha-nature, the heart) within the formless and not willing formlessness through the formed by mentally and physically practicing entrenched ideas. And this is also why working on your nature and character are every bit if not more important than working on the body. The body becomes what is it in large part because of what you think it is and true transmutation lies beyond cognition to create, dissolve and resolve. This is why you must unlearn yourself to realize, and this is why practice and cultivation are so much more important than debating traditions, teachers and methods. When you approach the potential of a true teaching with fear and doubt, practicing half-heartedly, scattered and full of conflicting desire, then the truth of what that is, who you are and what you do easily becomes obscured. Instead, when your heart and actions are diligent, honest and move deeply in (self)awareness, it becomes easier to sense and know what is true (and therefore also what is untrue) about yourself, about life, and all that appears to be; from this perspective of such honest practice, living and cultivation are the same path to the same origin no matter what form it took.  When you come to this in yourself then all the invaluable insights and precious teachings of the Enlightened will no longer be a method or a mystery but a revelation in transcendent experience beyond all manifestations, both ‘formed’ and ‘unformed’ and it will become you.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Small Fur