Ekātmapratyayasāram - That which is traceable through the unbroken Self-awareness

[s1va]

2 minutes ago, Rishi Das said:

Everything is good whether I think or tell myself I am already there...

 

I think there is value in saying it depending on where the recipient falls on the spectrum of 'absolute' understanding. 

 

Yes, there may be value for some.  But, there is also the possibilty that many are going to delude themselves saying they arrived even before they get started.

 

Unless and until the concious apprehension of this liberated state is achieved and is a constant experience, it does not matter as Abhinavagupta points out.

 

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Pratyabhijñā will happen in a flash when a person is ready and when they get the anugrahA or divine grace.

 

The Bauddha Jnana or intellectual comprehension has nothing to do with the Paurusa Jnana that cannot be aquired by any intellectual means.  This is explained by Abhinavagupta in TantralokA.

One sets the stage for the other. The problem with some folks seems to be the mixing of the three upāyas. What is valid for someone who's ready for Sambhavopaya is not for someone ready for shaktopaya and definitely not for someone who is ready of anvopaya. 

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Things don't just happen. Individual effort (also) is a MUST every step of the way.  It is a combination of both individual effort and divine grace.

 

Yes. And where is this divinity? In outer space? In the sky somewhere?

8 minutes ago, s1va said:

When is it not the time to seek? 🙂

 

A mumukshu is one who will look and seek every moment.

Until there is no need anymore. 

[s1va]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Yes. And where is this divinity? In outer space? In the sky somewhere?

 

This is where our paths will depart.  There is differentiation as me, you and deites at practical (immanent) level.  Plain Advaita goes only so far, in circles.  The heart of Shiva is both transcendent and immanent.  

 

Since I see no point in continuing this, we have been down this road many times before, I will just leave it right here and step away! 🙂

[dwai]

1 minute ago, s1va said:

 

This is where our paths will depart.  There is differentiation as me, you and deites at practical (immanent) level.  Plain Advaita goes only so far, in circles.  The heart of Shiva is both transcendent and immanent.  

And you are not Shiva, but a jiva who is separate from him?

1 minute ago, s1va said:

Since I see no point in continuing this, we have been down this road many times before, I will just leave it right here and step away! 🙂

Before you go, do read the story I posted

Edited November 8, 2018 by dwai

[3bob]

1 hour ago, s1va said:

 

Then there is no point to the teachings, the discussions we do.  When it happens it will happen, we all can sit, relax and let it happen, right?  That may be your philosophy, I don't think any major belief systems support such an attitude.

 

Buddhists tell us to seek liberation with the urgency as if one's hair/head is on fire and how diligently we would act to extinguish that fire.  Many Hindu scriptures advise exactly the same, to seek Moksha with utmost urgency in this life.  Shankara stresses this urgency in so many of his works including Vivekachoodamani.

 

and why does Spirit seek Spirit? I'd say because that is its nature and once found right under the nose - a made up anxiety about finding itself ends.  (which is not a very good way to put it and probably needs further explanation). 

[3bob]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Each Yoga is great in its own way and useful for people of different natures (some need one, others some combination of the four, while some don't need any). 

 

some may be born highly advanced and attain realization at a very early age. (along with many important factors being involved)...anyway what is not a yoga of some kind or another.... pre or post realization since you said some don't need any?

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

some may be born highly advanced and attain realization at a very early age. (along with many important factors being involved)...anyway what is not a yoga of some kind or another.... pre or post realization since you said some don't need any?

Yes some are born with no veiling or if at all, with a very flimsy veil, such that a single listening of jnana is sufficient (or a look from another jnani). 

Edited November 8, 2018 by dwai

[neti neti]

1 hour ago, s1va said:

Unless and until the conscious apprehension of this liberated state is achieved and is a constant experience, it does not matter as Abhinavagupta points out.

 

 

Right now, you are the constancy in which a waker rises, a dreamer dreams, and a sleeper sleeps. You are that constancy in which an experiencer consciously apprehends that achieved liberation, constantly. You are  both imminent as the experience and you transcend it, and yet, there can be no experience of you.

[neti neti]

Sugar cannot taste its sweetness, yet sugar and its sweetness are one. Sugar is not the sweetness, and yet, it is.

 

What talk can there be of sugar constantly tasting its sweetness? Chocolate, anyone?

[3bob]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Yes some are born with no veiling or if at all, with a very flimsy veil, such that a single listening of jnana is sufficient (or a look from another jnani). 

 

and I'd add that for same  it is not possible  to abandon Dharma and various yoga's - pre or post realization while also being a soul in any form of human, astral  or causal body that dharma's and yoga's inherently apply to.

Edited November 9, 2018 by 3bob

[Spotless]

19 hours ago, s1va said:

 

Pratyabhijñā will happen in a flash when a person is ready and when they get the anugrahA or divine grace.

 

The Bauddha Jnana or intellectual comprehension has nothing to do with the Paurusa Jnana that cannot be aquired by any intellectual means.  This is explained by Abhinavagupta in TantralokA.

It is a first step as Dwai correctly explained:

If you do not see this then you will try to fix *your selves*, you will try to improved upon the quality with which you grasp the tree. You will continue to be invested in willfulness and solidification of position.

[Spotless]

As has been said before - no practice will lead you to awakening - it will happen when it happens - it is like an accident. But doing practice does appear to make you more accident prone.  

 

 

[Marblehead]

Just now, Spotless said:

make you more accident prone.

Tell me about it.  I have been married three times.

 

[s1va]

29 minutes ago, Spotless said:

It is a first step as Dwai correctly explained:

If you do not see this then you will try to fix *your selves*, you will try to improved upon the quality with which you grasp the tree. You will continue to be invested in willfulness and solidification of position.

 

Not sure what Dwai explained as first step.  But, if you say no effort is needed, things happen on their own, I don't agree with such fatalistic view.  I would rather be invested and put forth effort.

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, s1va said:

 

Not sure what Dwai explained as first step.  But, if you say no effort is needed, things happen on their own, I don't agree with such fatalistic view.  I would rather be invested and put forth effort.

I have to agree with this within limits.  Recalling wu wei, yes, that is effortless flow.  But in the real world and especially at our work place we do need to concentrate on what needs be done.  And this requires conscious effort.

 

 

[s1va]

16 hours ago, neti neti said:

 

Right now, you are the constancy in which a waker rises, a dreamer dreams, and a sleeper sleeps. You are that constancy in which an experiencer consciously apprehends that achieved liberation, constantly. You are  both imminent as the experience and you transcend it, and yet, there can be no experience of you.

 

In my view, I fail to see any constancy.  What you are referring to as constant is also devoid of substance and is empty.

[3bob]

Neti neti,  I'm not sure of parts your word usage and meaning, anyway I'd try to interpret (which may not be what you meant)  by saying that "experience" is recorded in memory  yet memory is unable to circumscribe the Self?  Which means that the Self does not know Itself through memory but through Itself, thus It follows that that Self can not be found in memory, but is a constant regardless of an apparent or relative waker, dreamer or sleeper somewhere in memory.

Edited November 9, 2018 by 3bob

[3bob]

as for effort...if a hand does not reach out, what helping hand can take it? 

Edited November 9, 2018 by 3bob

[neti neti]

3 hours ago, s1va said:

 

In my view, I fail to see any constancy.  What you are referring to as constant is also devoid of substance and is empty.

 

Consciousness identifies with that I which has a view, but the identifying, the I and its view are just the consciousness.

 

Consciousness is that I which presumes the constancy is empty, the same consciousness simply observing itself as emptiness, as if the emptiness was separate from the consciousness. Full of itself and empty. No substance, and no emptiness.

 

No constancy, constancy is just a pointer. A label for that which cannot be named or framed by a design. Consciousness is all there is. There is only consciousness.

 

What knows the consciousness in all of its perceived forms and abstractions or lack thereof?

 

The unknowable.

Edited November 9, 2018 by neti neti

[3bob]

(along these lines)

 

MANDUKYA UPANISHAD 

English version by Sanderson Beck

 

AUM. This imperishable word is the universe.
It is explained as the past, the present, the future;
everything is the word AUM.
Also whatever transcends threefold time is AUM.
All here is God; this soul is God.
This same soul is fourfold.

The waking state outwardly conscious,
having seven limbs and nineteen doors,
enjoying gross objects common to all, is the first.

The dreaming state inwardly conscious,
having seven limbs and nineteen doors,
enjoying subtle objects that are bright, is the second.

When one sleeps without yearning for any desires,
seeing no dreams, that is deep sleep.
The deep-sleep state unified in wisdom gathered,
consisting of bliss, enjoying bliss,
whose door is conscious wisdom, is the third.

This is the Lord of all; this is the omniscient;
this is the inner controller; this is the universal womb,
for this is the origin and end of beings.
Not inwardly wise nor outwardly wise nor both ways wise
nor gathered wisdom, nor wise nor unwise,
unseen, incommunicable, intangible,
featureless, unthinkable, indefinable,
whose essence is the security of being one with the soul,
the end of evolution, peaceful, good, non-dual---
this they deem the fourth.

It is the soul; it should be discerned.
This is the soul in regard to the word AUM and its parts.
The parts are the letters,
and the letters are its parts: A U M.

The waking state common to all is the letter A,
the first part, from "attaining" or from being first.
Whoever knows this attains all desires and becomes first.

The sleeping state, the bright, is the letter U,
the second part, from "uprising" or from being in between.
Whoever knows this rises up in knowledge and is balanced;
no one ignorant of God is born in that family.

The deep-sleep state, the wise, is the letter M,
the third part, from "measure" or from being the end.
Whoever knows this measures everything and reaches the end.

The fourth is without a letter, the incommunicable,
the end of evolution, good, non-dual.

Thus AUM is the soul.
Whoever knows this enters by one's soul into the soul;
this one knows this.

 

Copyright 1996, 2002 by Sanderson Beck

Edited November 9, 2018 by 3bob

[neti neti]

2 hours ago, 3bob said:

Neti neti,  I'm not sure of parts your word usage and meaning, anyway I'd try to interpret (which may not be what you meant)  by saying that "experience" is recorded in memory  yet memory is unable to circumscribe the Self?  Which means that the Self does not know Itself through memory but through Itself, thus It follows that that Self can not be found in memory, but is a constant regardless of an apparent or relative waker, dreamer or sleeper somewhere in memory.

 

Absolutely. There is neither past present or future as Self. Timeless. Memory is a byproduct of the mind's holographic nature.

Edited November 9, 2018 by neti neti

[3bob]

I'd also add or say that there is no disconnect of the Self to all the tattva's or categories....(depending on how they are counted by various schools)