The Spirit of the Dao Bums

[liminal_luke]

If you don`t like off-grid, don`t post there.  That`s what they say.  It`s such a snappy line, the logic seemingly unassailable.  But trying to post on Tao Bums while ignoring Trump Talk is like trying to diet with icecream in the fridge.  My chances of success are about...umm..zero.  Efforts on the part of staff to cordon it off from view (or allow individual Bums to self-cordon) help.  Still, I`d argue that the whole area emits a noxious smell that`s impossible to entirely ignore.  If the majority of posts here are political then this is a political forum.  That`s true whether I personally manage to avoid off-grid or not.  We`re a sensitive group and many of us pick up the stench from afar.

 

Of course Silent Thunder is right when he says politics is spiritual.  Everything is, I suppose: we live our lives drenched in Dao. Years ago, I read here about some monks who practiced in the midst of blaring city noise.  Reportedly, the noise only helped them reach deeper into an inner silence.  Powerfully focused people can do amazing things.  In theory, I should be able to lose weight in a chocolate factory.  Alcoholics should have no problem walking into bars.  In reality, though, many of us -- including myself -- are not yet at that level.  It`s wise for us to mold our environment to encourage the kind of behavior we want.

 

Ultimately we need to decide.  Politics will always be a hot-button topic of conversation if we allow it here.  Are we happy letting our spiritual rose garden choke on spiritual weeds?  Or would we rather make an executive decision in favor of the flowers?

Edited November 10, 2018 by liminal_luke

[wandelaar]

22 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

The solution is not less, but more communication.

 

Yes - but that only happens when people are talking with each other instead of against each other. I live in the Netherlands so I don't know all the ins and outs, but this seems to be a good start: 

 

https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fnos.nl%2Fartikel%2F2257455-politieke-tegenstanders-leren-met-elkaar-praten-in-de-vs.html&edit-text=

 

[Michael Sternbach]

4 hours ago, Aetherous said:

I'm not offended, but I'm really not sure why people are laughing? You guys want to bring political discussions into this area?

 

I was laughing at the thought of having to self-restrict our access in order to stay away from the Trump discussion.

[wandelaar]

@ liminal_luke

 

I share your concerns, and I think you made an excellent argument. But I hate the idea of this forum banishing politics altogether. After all much of the Tao Te Ching is about politics. So it should have its place.

 

But you are right that the political discussions as they are now had on this forum are not particularly informed by Taoist or spiritual understandings. I hope that with the measures taken The Dao Bums will not deteriorate much further.

[Geof Nanto]

I’ve just now read all the above posts and there’s elements in all of them that I both agree and disagree with. And that’s the thing; the older I get the more I’m aware how I’m fuelled by contradictory forces. These opposites are what give me vitality, indeed it’s contradictory forces that give this forum its vitality. My OP was not a plea to shut down political discussion, but rather against the one-sided externalisation of these polar forces. I have been very politically active with strong partisan views when I was younger and that was important and appropriate then. But now I’m more interested in the forces themselves that shape my psyche; my focus has moved from externalisation to internalisation. 

 

The energy that propels these emotional discussions, whether political or religious, is powerful. Allowing its expression in a semi-controlled manner is what gives Dao Bums its vitality. But it's a dangerous energy; used wisely it can help us transform ourselves, whereas succumbing to it without understanding destroys us. The alchemists of old called it the spirit Mercurius. Here’s how the Aurelia Occulta decribes it.........

 

 

"I am the poison-dripping dragon, who is everywhere and can be cheaply had. That upon which I rest, and that which rests upon me, will be found within me by those who pursue their investigations in accordance with the rules of the Art. My water and fire destroy and put together; from my body you may extract the green lion and the red. But if you do not have exact knowledge of me, you will destroy your five senses with my fire. From my snout there comes a spreading poison that has brought death to many. 

 

"Therefore you should skilfully separate the coarse from the fine, if you do not wish to suffer utter poverty. I bestow on you the powers of the male and the female, and also those of heaven and of earth. The mysteries of my art must be handled with courage and greatness of mind if you would conquer me by the power of fire, for already very many have come to grief, their riches and labour lost. I am the egg of nature, known only to the wise, who in piety and modesty bring forth from me the microcosm, which was prepared for mankind by Almighty God, but given only to the few, while the many long for it in vain, that they may do good to the poor with my treasure and not fasten their souls to the perishable [material] gold. 

 

"By the philosophers I am named mercurius; my spouse is the [philosophic] gold; I am the old dragon, found everywhere on the globe of the earth, father and mother, young and old, very strong and very weak, death and resurrection, visible and invisible, hard and soft; I descend into the earth and ascend to the heavens, I am the highest and the lowest, the lightest and the heaviest; often the order of nature is reversed in me, as regards colour, number, weight, and measure; I contain the light of nature; I am dark and light; I come forth from heaven and earth; I am known and yet do not exist at all; by virtue of the sun's rays all colours shine in me, and all metals. I am the carbuncle of the sun, the most noble purified earth, through which you may change copper, iron, tin, and lead into gold." 

 

(Note: carbuncle means glowing-coal.)  
 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Yueya

[Wu Ming Jen]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I would have cherry pie a la mode without the pits.

 

You had to go there, You know my weakness when it comes to pie.

[Wu Ming Jen]

I second the motion of what silent thunder has to say. Whatever he says I agree. I will look for his post in this thread and read it so I am well informed so I can vote properly. With a very cool name like silent thunder I think he should be our next president, Just saying

[rene]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

How could politics (or anything for that matter) be devoid of spirit i find myself wondering?

 

Politics to me, seem to deal with the practical application of our foundational, collective, cultural moral and spiritual notions.  Politics to me, is something of a barometer of Spirit.  It's the process of dealing with morality, integrity, corruption, poverty, wealth, resources...

 

How will we respond as a culture to aggression?  How do we treat those among us who are infirm, disabled, impoverished?  How should we allocate our collective resources?  How much of our various commodities do we dispense to armaments versus education versus health care?    What constitutes an actionable breaking of our collective ideas of the Law?  What Laws do we choose to create and enforce?  How do we address the way we treat people in the work place, at school and in public?  All of these areas that are determined by political activity are to me, steeped utterly in the most foundational of spiritual conceptual noumena and phenomena.

 

Spiritual to the core is every act of politics to me.  But then, I consider every movement in the bathroom to be equally spiritual, so... as always, let my words convey only as much resonance as they do for you.  I'm not a qualified observer in any of your lives, so for me to try and convince you to alter your manner of interaction with the all in all, is way out of my jurisdiction. 

 

The reason I tend to avoid political threads and conversations wherever they occur is due to the unshakable notion that I no longer perceive life accurately enough to push others into my current manner of perceiving life, nor do I sense I know enough about other's lives to be able to with any degree of conviction, begin to assert how they should think.  I sense no need, or ability to cajole others into being other than they are.  I respond to actions.

 

 

I'm just gonna follow you around like a puppy. That okay? (-:

[Stosh]

Posts like these are still an attempt to influence others. Are they not? 

Be honest now..... 

And so yall are not any different than those pressing political views. .... nor am I really. 

So wander off in indifference or participate as you see fit , but dont judge if youre gonna complain.

The asocial hermit is the only one who might fairly claim no agenda.. 

[wandelaar]

Don't see why choosing not to participate in political debates and why expressing concern about the current big investments in politics should be tabooed or branded as not honest.

 

Imagine you join a forum devoted to the study of birds and then the main focus of the forum drifts off in the direction of heated debates about the best type of airplanes that should be used in the US. It would be normal and understandable when some of the members of the forum would regret such a change of focus and would wish to express their feelings about it.

[windwalker]

16 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

It would be normal and understandable when some of the members of the forum would regret such a change of focus and would wish to express their feelings about it.

 

 

It would be normal for those that felt that way to seek other forums......which is what most do.

you speak of "regret"  where does this regret arise from....

a past that no longer exist, extended to present that is not reality ,

wishing for a future that hasn't happened.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by windwalker

[Stosh]

55 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Don't see why choosing not to participate in political debates and why expressing concern about the current big investments in politics should be tabooed or branded as not honest.

 

Imagine you join a forum devoted to the study of birds and then the main focus of the forum drifts off in the direction of heated debates about the best type of airplanes that should be used in the US. It would be normal and understandable when some of the members of the forum would regret such a change of focus and would wish to express their feelings about it.

Lemme know if this post is aimed at mine since it doesnt match up as a riposte. 

In the meantime I will assume it is. 

A question is not always a pointed complaint, but a pointed complaint is still an attempt to persuade. 

Persuasion is not the "still pond reflecting"

Its not wu wei , and so its just as much a diversion as talking politics . 

Teaching by not teaching , is to demonstrate restraint and non-interference. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Stosh

[Apech]

If you choose a life of quiet contemplation then you should avoid politics - which by its very nature is adversarial and often full of hate.  But then if the DBs was nothing but quiet contemplators exchanging snippets of wisdom every year or so - what a dull, anodyne place it would be.  In fact it would end up like so many other 'spiritual' forums out there.  I wonder if in our attempts over the years to amputate the worst excesses of ad hominem attack and personal venom, the surgeons knife has slipped and cut off a little too much.  Perhaps we really have a thirst for controversial views and a little 'heat' now and then.  In fact isn't Trump himself analogous to this, even if you despise him, isn't it a bit more entertaining with him around?  So, I think we should keep the Trump thread - and a few more like it - even if only in the dark underbelly of this beast - just to keep us simmering along with a little energy.  If someone gets their feelings hurt occasionally - well just suck it up guys and gals - this is Daobums after all.

 

 

[wandelaar]

19 minutes ago, windwalker said:

It would be normal for those that felt that way to seek other forums......which is what most do.

you speak of "regret"  where does this regret arise from....

a past that no longer exist, extended to present that is not reality ,

wishing for a future that hasn't happened.

 

If things deteriorate much further indeed eventually that is what will happen. Those who came here to learn about Taoism and spirituality will leave, and this place will be taken over by those who like to spent most of their time talking and debating politics. Or maybe the forum itself will be shut down, or some new forum will be set up for the more serious Bums who don't want to be involved in the upheaval around Trump? Can't predict the future. We will see what happens.

 

But I have already said what I wanted to say in this topic, and there are much more interesting things to do on this Sunday (like reading a book on wu wei) than getting sucked into one more of those silly quibbles about politics. Goodbye!

[Stosh]

I dont feel upheaved or miffed. I

 

I found another site a long time ago where the moderation tried to constrain everybody into talking ... dao stuff. 

There was no conversation going on. But if you did post , you got hit with a flurry of borrowed quotes from TTC. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Stosh

[windwalker]

29 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Those who came here to learn about Taoism and spirituality will leave, and this place will be taken over by those who like to spent most of their time talking and debating politics.

 

Isn't this the essence of the dao. 

 

How will this change the basic nature of here...isn't the dao like water flowing into all places lakes and sewers

and yet keeping its true nature.   Learning is good,  I find being is better....

 

How better to demonstrate what is learned by engaging with those whom one does not agree with,

to see if what is learned is really real....what is one learning if not this. 

 

 

Did buddha shut out those he didn't agree with, did jesus not wash the sores of the unclean..

Trying to understand how a place is taken over by those who only interact in one part of it, allowing for others to interact in other parts..

 

yes enjoy life, the day,    here is always here....in the moment one engages with it, gone when one is not...

 

Seems like a choice....

Edited November 11, 2018 by windwalker

[windwalker]

15 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Efforts on the part of staff to cordon it off from view (or allow individual Bums to self-cordon) help.  Still, I`d argue that the whole area emits a noxious smell that`s impossible to entirely ignore.  If the majority of posts here are political then this is a political forum.  That`s true whether I personally manage to avoid off-grid or not.  We`re a sensitive group and many of us pick up the stench from afar.

 

 

Wow,,,,I wonder what happens when other things give off a "noxious smell"  what then 

where does it stop....

 

would it not be better to understand that smell and everything else exist in ones mind.

 

What you mention sounds like a western view point....

 

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out,
and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for
thee that one of thy members should perish, and
not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Matthew 5:29

 

Some might argue or say that this is a site dedicated to eastern spirituality

by asking for those to control what some can not   control ie "themselves'    they'er bringing a western 

view point that is  out of place here....not that I mind but others might....

 

please note: do not cut off your nose,  because of the smell....

understand the smell is with in  you....

 

Edited: for clarity

Edited November 11, 2018 by windwalker

[Stosh]

I liked it phrased the other way better.

[rene]

Some folks need a 'safe space'.

Nothing wrong with that.

 

Quickly providing them one can create unintended outcomes..

 

Gotta learn how to get through the authentic hard times. Quit coddling or they wont. TDB isnt bubble-wrap. Neither is Life. Or Tao.

 

JMO

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

14 hours ago, rene said:

I'm just gonna follow you around like a puppy. That okay? (-:

Such treasure as this!  Yes please, thank you!!

[dawei]

I'll give a few comments... likely turns out more than a few:

 

1. It is not that the majority of the posts are this or that but what is the majority of the membership... there are only about 5-10 who even post in O-G.  If it was closed down, then all such threads would move to The Rabbit Hole as that was what we had before, a single sub-forum where it all went.

2. I decide to go out to eat and I have 100 restaurants to choose from.  There is one I really don't like so I go in there and demand they shut down as they give off an obnoxious, offending taste to me and so the rest of the community must feel that way too.

3. Or, I know I don't like that restaurant but see folks in there anyways and they seem to enjoy it, I just don't.  So I go eat where I like.

4. I used to really hate Yahoo mail, their developers, software, and features seemed awful and tiresome to use.  I could envision a bunch of devils sitting around trying to code a useless and awful piece of online mail.  I can't say exactly when, but that all seemed to go away at some point by itself. I still use Yahoo mail.   

5. My chinese wife likes to feed me a piece of food or wipe my mouth, or clean my ears or cut my toe nails.   I absolutely was feeling my personal space was being invaded and I pulled back at every turn.   She explained in her culture, these were displays of love.  Now I let her invade my space as much as she wants and I found a huge barrier drop; a kind of cosmic expansion of my being felt released.  Like after a cold, you can breath easier. 

6. In my current practices, it has to do with the same idea as #5, interacting with the space around us, including people, deities, dimensions, beings, etc...  One bit of advice I got was, the more it bothers you it is that interaction trying to breakup and fix what it is that bothers you.  I have had my limits at times, usually more with people than deities or beings.  So I have realized I need to keep going with the people stuff and keep releasing barriers.   Then any action I take is based more on an inner sense than an outer perceived obstacle.

7. I like all weather, whether the sun, rain or snow.  When young, the snow is a thrill. But now, I choose to get out of the north and now live in the south where there is more sun than snow.

8. I really dislike killing even an ant till red ants descended on me one day in this beautiful south and bite me many times. I don't think I'll get past letting them crawl up me to bite me.  I still have some limits on my personal space. 

[Nintendao]

The offstage clamor of interlocking antlers is to me actually much more palatable than the droves of wand-waving, crystal-crapping, butterfly-winged unicorns that flock to so many other spiritually themed media. Please don't get me wrong, I do very much love a good heart opening sparkle fest, but at the same time have to value the mind opening capability of a whack to the head or a shock to the guts.

 

What's more, this place is a community, not just an institution. Off topic convos, whether about politics or potholders, help us learn more about each other. Having only been here a year I also always have the luxury of mining for gold and gems in the vast trove of thread history whenever the present weather doesn't grab my interest. Even better if I just turn the computer off and go practice!

 

Only thing that makes me sad is when we have already lost some really, really good content and contributors that must have gotten too steamed over holy pearls being trampled in the mud. A wise bum must be able to know when things have gotten too heated and time to move on from a given scene before injury occurs. Either way, the circle of life goes on and the wheel of time turns. Throw another log on the fire. Namaste and happy 11/11 day  

[rene]

@dawei

 

Your #3 is my way, lol. I like that others have something they enjoy! It also makes my fav place less crowded, heh.

[Marblehead]

5 hours ago, dawei said:

8. I really dislike killing even an ant till red ants descended on me one day in this beautiful south and bite me many times. I don't think I'll get past letting them crawl up me to bite me.  I still have some limits on my personal space. 

Yes, fire ants, sometimes called piss ants (their bite is so fierce it causes one to piss their pants), are plentiful down here.  If any get on me they have to die.  That's just the way I am.

 

[Nintendao]

3 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, fire ants, sometimes called piss ants (their bite is so fierce it causes one to piss their pants), are plentiful down here.  If any get on me they have to die.  That's just the way I am.

 

 

It's okay to kill them as long as you also eat at least some of them. Just make sure to savor it long enough to let saliva neutralize the venom before it hits your throat.