The Spirit of the Dao Bums

[rene]

Ewwwww...

[zerostao]

On 11/10/2018 at 2:18 PM, Marblehead said:

Yeah, I'm still working on trying to understand myself.

 

stick with it

to answer the OP, the spirit of the Dao Bums is golden

[Geof Nanto]

A good discussion but no one other than Zerostao has attempted to answer the question of my OP, namely, “What is the spirit of Dao Bums?”

 

I’ll stick with my previous observation that there’s a strong element of the spirit Mercurius in evidence here.  I like the image: 

 

On 11/11/2018 at 8:03 AM, Yueya said:

I am the carbuncle of the sun, the most noble purified earth, through which you may change copper, iron, tin, and lead into gold." 

 

The word ‘carbuncle’ derives from the Latin carbunculus, meaning glowing-coal. A derived meaning is a mythical gemstone said to emit light even in total darkness. It’s common derived meaning is a painful localized bacterial infection of the skin and subcutaneous tissue that usually has several openings through which pus is discharged. 

 

For me, the spirit of Dao Bums has all three of these aspects, fortunately with the higher aspects strongly present.

 

(I very rarely visit the Trump discussions but when I have I was reminded of the third aspect....such is the sometimes messy way the body attempts to heal itself. For me, Trump comes across a person totally possessed by the spirit Mercurius, unfortunately in its lower rather than higher aspects, but nevertheless he represents a vital attempt by the forces of Dao to heal a very sick body politic.) 

[Lost in Translation]

On 11/9/2018 at 2:19 PM, Yueya said:

What is the spirit of this forum?

 

https://www.ichingonline.net/

 

Question: "What is the spirit of the Dao bums?"

 

Short answer: #27 (䷚) Nourishment transforming into #42 (䷩) Increase

 

Long answer: #27 (䷚) Nourishment

 

Quote

IMAGE

At the foot of the mountain, thunder:
The image of PROVIDING NOURISHMENT.
Thus the superior man is careful of his words
And temperate in eating and drinking.

 

JUDGEMENT

THE CORNERS OF THE MOUTH.

Perseverance brings good fortune.
Pay heed to the providing of nourishment
And to what a man seeks
To fill his own mouth with.

 

CHANGING LINE

Six in the fifth place means:
Turning away from the path.
To remain persevering brings good fortune.
One should not cross the great water.

 

#42 (䷩) Increase

 

Quote

IMAGE

Wind and thunder: the image of INCREASE.
Thus the superior man:
If he sees good, he imitates it;
If he has faults, he rids himself of them.

 

JUDGEMENT

INCREASE. It furthers one
To undertake something.
It furthers one to cross the great water.

 

Seems pretty clear to me...

[Geof Nanto]

@Lost in Translation

 

Good answer and a good way to get an answer. Thanks. 

[wandelaar]

Some advice from that other classic:

 

Quote

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 22

Yield and overcome;
Bend and be straight;
Empty and be full;
Wear out and be new;
Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

Therefore wise men embrace the one
And set an example to all.
Not putting on a display,
They shine forth.
Not justifying themselves,
They are distinguished.
Not boasting,
They receive recognition.
Not bragging,
They never falter.
They do not quarrel,
So no one quarrels with them.
Therefore the ancients say, 'Yield and overcome.'
Is that an empty saying?
Be really whole,
And all things will come to you.

http://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu22.html

 

Quote

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 24

He who stands on tiptoe is not steady.
He who strides cannot maintain the pace.
He who makes a show is not enlightened.
He who is self-righteous is not respected.
He who boasts achieves nothing.
He who brags will not endure.
According to followers of the Tao,
     "These are extra food and unnecessary luggage."
They do not bring happiness.
Therefore followers of the Tao avoid them.

http://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu24.html

 

But as the Old Man said:

 

Quote

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 70

My words are easy to understand and easy to perform,
Yet no one under heaven knows them or practices them.

My words have ancient beginnings.
My actions are disciplined.
Because men do not understand, they have no knowledge of me.

Those that know me are few;
Those that abuse me are honoured.
Therefore the sage wears rough clothing and holds the jewel in his heart.

http://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu70.html

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by wandelaar

[rainbowvein]

On 11/9/2018 at 5:19 PM, Yueya said:

What is the spirit of this forum?

 

Convoluted,

muddling,

with

intermittent glimmers of hope.

[liminal_luke]

At TDBs member participation in conversation is non-hierarchical.  Meaning, members have equal ability to talk regardless of level of knowledge, achievement, or status / credentials of any kind.  TDBs has an underlying ethic of valuing the communication of each person.

Trunk

 

To me, the above quote by Trunk (from the Three Foundations thread in the Rules and Use section of the board) expresses the spirit of the Dao Bums.  Distilled down, it`s about respect.  Let`s suppose that spirituality is something that can be cultivated and that some people are farther along in the cultivation process than others.  Now, I have my opinions about who among us is farther along and who isn`t  -- but nobody has to listen to me.  I don`t get to declare that so-and-so is more advanced and therefore has the right to teach the rest of us and we have to give special consideration to that person.  By design, everyone has equal standing.

 

This non-hierarchical quality gives the Bums it`s special flavor.  If I want to say something, I get to say it.  It`s up to the readers to decide for themselves how much weight to give to my words.  Nobody can take my voice away saying I`m not qualified because I haven`t had such and such an experience or haven`t practiced for X number of years or whatever.  People can -- and often do -- tell me I`m full of bull... but I`m allowed to say my piece.  There`s something profoundly respectful about this.  It`s what this place is all about.

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by liminal_luke

[Kar3n]

Some posts having nothing to do with The Spirit of the Dao Bums and everything to do with Trump have been split out to the Talk Trump thread in off grid.

[Lost in Translation]

The political dialog is as much a part of the Spirit of the Dao Bums as the philosophical and spiritual dialog. I have learned much about Taoism by participating in the political threads. Sometimes one needs to give in to one's basest nature in order the exhaust the desire before beginning the process of cleaning.

[doc benway]

On 11/9/2018 at 5:19 PM, Yueya said:

 

What is the spirit of this forum?

 

I would say currently the spirit of Dao Bums is dominated by those with strong political opinions. That's where powerful emotions are being played out. I've written before that the atmosphere here is a reflection of our collective personal cultivation, with staff and prolific posters having a strong influence. I note that many of these key players have deeply partisan political views. 

 

This is the reality. I'm not condoning or condemning it, though it does put me off participating in all sections of this forum.  However I am interested in observing how the underlying forces at work play out over the longer term. 

 

 

 

If I had to describe the forum succinctly, it would be "free-spirited."

 

I appreciate the wide berth regarding subject matter as it gives me insight into the participants in a way that wouldn't be possible with more focused discussion. The flip-side is that very knowledge often causes me to restrain my own contribution, not only in specific sections but overall.

 

I will share that I've been surprised and sometimes disappointed by some of the attitudes and discussions here over the years in what is ostensibly a "spiritual" forum, long before the 2016 political campaign. In part that is a projection of my own bias regarding the definition and intent of spirituality and community. I've often seen more loving-kindness and humaneness on forums dedicated to gun and knife enthusiasts (that's not an exaggeration). Racism, antisemitism, homophobia, xenophobia, we've got it all... we're basically a microcosm and I think this is, once again, a reflection of the freedom we have here. Mixed with anonymity, however,  freedom can be a double edged sword.

 

I have certainly encountered some loving, sensitive, supportive, and beautiful people here and for that I am grateful. I'm also grateful for some of the eccentricities here. I've learned quite a bit over the years, about a variety of subjects, but most of all about myself and the nature of anonymous human interaction. It's been a fun ride. 

 

All in all, I can't think of a more apt name for the forum.

 

[Apech]

If spiritual progress is like a well sign posted three lane highway, then DBs could be compared to a short cut consisting of a dusty track which winds through a dangerous gulch and emerges on a cliff edge, where in an attempt to save yourself you wrap your car round the base of an old tree and emerge with your head spinning, fall flat face down on the ground whimpering and drooling and calling out for your mother.  After a short period of hospitalization you discover yourself addicted to opiates and on a fast track to insolvency  ... those you turn to for love and support desert you and take out restraining orders and you end up homeless and penniless in a town of merciless drug gangs and street crime.  In an act of desperation you steal a lap top from a parked car and log in to DBs for advice where you are told that the problem is that your 4th to 7th chakras are misaligned and you need a reiki herbal bath.

 

This is more or less factual although some details have been omitted to protect anonymity .

[Marblehead]

That's a perspective different from my own.

 

[silent thunder]

19 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

The political dialog is as much a part of the Spirit of the Dao Bums as the philosophical and spiritual dialog. I have learned much about Taoism by participating in the political threads. Sometimes one needs to give in to one's basest nature in order the exhaust the desire before beginning the process of cleaning.

Well said.

 

Your words resonate with my experience that politics describe and demonstrate our society's communal spiritual perceptual climate.  As such, politics display as spiritualism in practical action to me.  It is often untenable for me to participate in certain aspects of political discussion, in a similar manner that it is untenable for me to go for a walk in certain climates outdoors.  When walking in certain climates, I take precautions to ensure not only survival but when possible, vitality.

 

When the communal political climate in which I find myself is non-conducive to my own personal health and longevity, I take precautions when engaging, or when I can't maintain sincerity and grow too judgemental, rigid and triggered, I withdraw engagement entirely. 

 

It's simply not always healthy to go for a walk outside after all.

 

However, how spirit could ever be disconnected from any process, noumenal or phenomenal lies beyond the ken of my mind to imagine and my body to experience.  Spirit, Matter, Mind...are no longer perceived as separate at all, but in my mind they coalesce like facets of a fluid gem... distinctly apparent aspects of one fluid process.  They can be taken of themselves (looking at only one facet of a gem at a time) but the other facets are not irrelevant, negated, disconnected or non present and impacting when one reduces focus onto only one aspect at a time, for whatever purpose.

 

All aspects are as interconnected for me as a wave is expressed in crest and trough.  There are no waves with only crests.  Break a stick in half and one does not have two tops of sticks.  There is a transactional interconnectedness to the fluid process of awareness in presence.  Like buying and selling, that always manifests simultaneously and each aspect depends on and codefine each other aspect. 

 

While these words oversimplify to try and explain a complex experience of presence, they seem to be beneficial to me at times in the say a menu is useful at modeling in conceptual notions, the experience of a meal to come. 

 

Spirit, Matter, Mind (and those that lie beyond words to even communicate) all interrelate and express fluidly in presence and coarise and seemingly codefine, bringing each other into being as any one arises.

 

For many years the more politically bent verses of the DDJ seldom resonated with my own experience, I could not perceive the connection and relevance to my experience, they seemed disconnected, or non-relevant.  Recently, this has shifted and I see that political expressions are but another aspect of expression of spiritual perception,  another intrinsic layer so to speak of one multi-faceted interconnected fluid process.

 

I'm so grateful for this place and all its dialogues, including those that are not beneficial for me to participate in.  Sometimes I more fully come to realize my own true nature, by encountering that which seems utterly counter to it... neti neti.  (not this, not this).  I deeply appreciate finding the dialogues that cause me to want to lash out, the places where I sense I am not allowed to laugh.  For long ago the realization settled on my awareness that "wherever i feel not allowed to laugh... there is where my work lies". 

 

The topics and opinions that deeply trigger me are invaluable gifts of presence and clarity that cut through the fog of assumptions and illusions like a clarion bell.  Unfortunately that bell is often too intense for me to be willing to sit in its presence for long, or at all.  So I am judicious what I wear and where I choose to walk, when I enter the communal climate.  I don't blame the climate for seeming too cold and the wind too biting and bitter when it's winter, I stay indoors where it's warm, or bundle up... in a similar manner I no longer blame the climate of politics when they seem to be out of step with my own projections and appear to me discompassionate, brutal and overly judgemental and selfish.

 

While it no longer seems necessary or beneficial to be serious in any given matter.

Sincerity seems of unmost significance.

 

Play has become a most powerful tactic.  The most significant daily, moment to moment practical application of spiritual process for me.

 

Engaging in life playfully, sincerely, bouyantly and childlike, not seriously, rigidly which leads to the childish.

Edited November 25, 2018 by silent thunder
grammar, deleted an extra word

[OldDog]

On 11/11/2018 at 4:14 PM, Marblehead said:

... fire ants, sometimes called piss ants ...

 

Gotta disagree ya there ...

 

I am old enough to remember when fire ants were a rarity, back in the day when there were still horned toads ... the dominant forms of antdom back then being sugar ants, carpenter ants,  black ants and red ants ... not the small vicious mound building fire ant but the large industrial sized half inch ( three-eighths, anyway) monsters that lived underground beneath a single hole but could still bite the hell outa you. The term 'piss ant' was already in common use then and referred to any kind of small annoying entity ... including, most especially, small mided petty people.

 

Just a point of clarification there. 

 

 

[OldDog]

I have to say that I have really enjoyed the Dao Bums and way that it is managed. Many kudos to the management team. 

 

I like what I would call the collegial nature of the site. Largely it is inhabited by a very diverse bunch of folks that are good listeners that are willing to share their thoughts and insights with others in a non-threatening non-domineering manner. That's a rare thing.

 

Now, I can't speak to the political side. I really have to avoid those kinds of forums ... not sure my nature would fare well there. But, yeah, don't see why there should not be a place for those discussions. I'm not sure a civil discussion on American politics is possible anymore but if any group can manage it, this group could. 

 

I have been hanging out here a little over a year now and have been quite happy with ... and better off for ... the experience. 

 

Thanks!

[liminal_luke]

In the beginning Daobums was a place on the internet dedicated especially to the discussion of Daoist theory and practice and sundry other spiritual pursuits.  Not anymore.  Now the majority of the posts relate to politics and controversial social issues. Will President Trump save or destroy the United States? Should transexuals be allowed to use the bathroom of their choice?  Everywhere we look these days, political divisiveness is tearing apart social bonds – community spirit, friendships, even marriages – and now it`s come to take down my erstwhile favorite corner of the interwebs.  It`s a development that`s both sad and neurologically inevitiable.  Because: dopamine.  Dopamine is the neurotransmitter that floods the brain when we think we`re about to have a rewarding experience.  And what could be more rewarding than demolishing the idiotic arguments of our political foes?  That`s got to be as good as chocolate cake or sex or yet another pair of expensive high-heel shoes.  It`s almost as good as cocaine; indeed, the experience of posting something contentious on the internet is similar in form – if not in scale – to a drug high.  This is why we can`t (or won`t) stop.  Our brains keep telling us that posting about Trump is going to feel good.

 

I`m learning to recognize that surge of excitement that comes over me before I do something fun and destructive, something with the potential to please me now and hurt me later.  I`m learning to say no to porn and that plate of fettucine alfredo.  To say no to Trump Talk.  So many of the most nurturing things – calm evenings snuggling with my partner, kale, quietly informative posts about Daoism -- seem boring to my process addicted psyche.

 

In my fervor to regain psychological equilibrium, have I become that most annoying of characters – the moral scold?  Am I making the logical error of assuming that my experience mirrors that of others?  If so, I apologize.  It`s like this: nobody hates cigarettes as much as the guy whose recently quit.  In this journey to become our best and truest selves, there are phases where our voices become a tad strident, a smidge over-insistent.  Or at least this has been my experience.  Anyway, posting here isn`t good for me anymore... and so I`m going to try and stop (though I will still read the posts of others and offer occasional likes).  Wish me luck.

Edited December 24, 2018 by liminal_luke

[wandelaar]

@ liminal_luke

 

Why not learn to ignore those topics that are about politics? I have a well filled Ignore List myself, and I seldom visit the topics that revolve around political controversy. Criticising the presence of political discussions here will not help, we already did that. It is exactly the enervating game of criticism and counter criticism that is sucking people into the political mud fights. What could be done about it as to the presentation of the forum has already been done.

 

Just concentrate on the Taoist and spiritual topics.

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by wandelaar

[Aetherous]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

In the beginning Daobums was a place on the internet dedicated especially to the discussion of Daoist theory and practice and sundry other spiritual pursuits.  Not anymore.  Now the majority of the posts relate to politics and controversial social issues.

 

This simply isn't true whatsoever. Look at the on topic sections of the forum.

Also, I knew that the recent change (pitting the Trump threads) wasn't going to satisfy.

[ilumairen]

I have a friend who wandered this way, and thought most of the conversations were about semen retention. Granted this was a few years ago, and such discussions don't tend to be as front and center as they once were.

 

The subject still seems to garner more interest than most other subjects - including Trump. And I'm pretty sure there are more posts here on this subject than just about any other. They're just spread out amongst many threads - instead of coalesced into one or two. 

 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

Hi Luke, just pull back take a break for a while.  I found myself wasting too much time with the Trump junk so I said to myself enough and that’s all. 

 

It’s all fun until it isn’t then just take a break 😁

[dawei]

Master Tung-kuo asked Chuang Tzu, "This thing called the Way-where does it exist?" 
Chuang Tzu said, "There's no place it doesn't exist." 
"Come," said Master Tung-kuo, "you must be more specific!" 
"It is in the ant." 
"As low a thing as that?" 
"It is in the panic grass." 
"But that's lower still!" 
"It is in the tiles and shards." 
"How can it be so low?" 
"It is in the piss and shit." 

 

- Tr. Burton

[wandelaar]

That's right, so one would do well to tolerate the existence of piss and shit. But Chuang tzu didn't promote to piss and shit in all places.

[OldDog]

While I can sympathize with liminal_luke, I don't really feel that such toxic environments are as pervasive as he suggests ... at least I hope they are.not. I know there are threads on this forum that tend that way ... I entered a couple to see what was going on and quickly ran away ... but for the most part TDB is well managed.  And I hope it continues to be so.

 

Contrary to those toxic threads, most of the on topic threads on Daoist, Buddhist, spiritual and philosophical matters are populated with folks that are willing to share their thoughts, ideas and feelings in open discussion. Sure, differing points of view arise ... some contradictions ... but these are most often settled in simple acceptance that these are someone else's view of the truth. In this environment it is all too easy to see when someone is going over the top in pressing a point of view. I think we know what ugly looks like and most folks on this site turn away from it and don't participate in it.

 

I came to TDB because I am interested in learning. I want to hear different ideas and test them against my own understanding ... and find my own unfolding path. I have been pleased and grateful for this site. 

 

Happy holidays to all. 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by OldDog
Grammar

[doc benway]

22 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

In my fervor to regain psychological equilibrium, have I become that most annoying of characters – the moral scold?

 

 

I don't see you that way but, if you are, at least it helps me know that I'm in good company!

 

Quote

Am I making the logical error of assuming that my experience mirrors that of others?  If so, I apologize.

 

 

Probably, don't we all to some degree?

Apology accepted and extended.

 

Quote

 It`s like this: nobody hates cigarettes as much as the guy whose recently quit.  In this journey to become our best and truest selves, there are phases where our voices become a tad strident, a smidge over-insistent.  Or at least this has been my experience. 

 

 

Mine too, both from the subject and object side. I guess it means neither of us are yet fully liberated...

 

Damn it!

 

Quote

Anyway, posting here isn`t good for me anymore...

 

 

Perhaps not but it certainly is good for me!

You are a grounding and stabilizing force for me here.

You are genuine, sincere, and clear.

A rarity.

 

Quote

and so I`m going to try and stop (though I will still read the posts of others and offer occasional likes).  Wish me luck.

 

Best of luck and love to you Luke!

While I'll miss your posts, I will continue to feel your support, warmth, and light whether I encounter you here or not.

Knowing you has been good for me.

Perhaps we'll have a chance to interact elsewhere or in the future.

 

Big hugs and lots of kisses to you, my friend!

 

PS - to whatever extent the political discussion here has caused some of my friends to leave, I say FUCK POLITICS and FUCK TRUMP.

 

And a joyous and peaceful Christmas to you all...

Edited December 25, 2018 by steve