The Spirit of the Dao Bums

[Geof Nanto]

On 09/11/2018 at 7:54 AM, dawei said:

The main grip, rightfully so, was that a newbie likely would just start with "Activity" and they would see tons of political posts   and not really take the spirit of the TDB seriously at first.

 

What is the spirit of this forum?

 

I would say currently the spirit of Dao Bums is dominated by those with strong political opinions. That's where powerful emotions are being played out. I've written before that the atmosphere here is a reflection of our collective personal cultivation, with staff and prolific posters having a strong influence. I note that many of these key players have deeply partisan political views. 

 

This is the reality. I'm not condoning or condemning it, though it does put me off participating in all sections of this forum.  However I am interested in observing how the underlying forces at work play out over the longer term. 

 

 

[wandelaar]

I think you are right. But apart from the measures already taken there is nothing we can do about it. Bums make their own choices where and how to invest their time and energy, and it is their right to do so. The only thing we can do to change the balance of the current spirit is to keep investing our own time and energy (meanly) in topics that do have a connection with Taoism and/or spirituality.

[Marblehead]

One will always show their true emotions when discussing religion and politics.  Sometimes I talk about religion, sometimes I don't.  Same with politics.

 

It's no secret the I am a Conservative.  That would naturally cause me to be biased regarding both religion and politics.

 

There is nothing requiring us to read the political threads.  I have never gotten in trouble when I take a break from them.

 

The Spirit of TheDaoBums is alive and well.  There are many members who are not getting involved in the political discussions but remaining in those threads that are of interest to them.

 

I think I will now go lay down in the Valley of the Spirit.

 

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

It's no secret the I am a Conservative.  That would naturally cause me to be biased regarding both religion and politics.

 

The main thing that is keeping me from participating in the political threads is that being biased is consider as something that is OK. I don't think that is a fruitful attitude. One should try to view the facts as objectively as possible, and one should try as best as one can to only use logically and factually correct forms of arguments. Otherwise the discussion quickly degenerates into name-calling, the typical straw man arguments, incorrect generalisations, etc. Political street fighting of this type may helps one to score some short-term successes, but in the end it helps no one and only poisons the relations between people of different political persuasions.

 

(I know that there are also a few more nuanced participant in the political threads, but they don't set the general tone.)

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

The main thing that is keeping me from participating in the political threads is that being biased is consider as something that is OK. I don't think that is a fruitful attitude. One should try to view the facts as objectively as possible, and one should try as best as one can to only use logically and factually correct forms of arguments. Otherwise the discussion quickly degenerates into name-calling, the typical straw man arguments, incorrect generalisations, etc. Political street fighting of this type may helps one to score some short-term successes, but in the end it helps no one and only poisons the relations between people of different political persuasions.

 

(I know that there are also a few more nuanced participant in the political threads, but they don't set the general tone.)

I offer one point for that.

 

However,

 

As you pointed out, objective observation of the facts.  If the historical facts indicate that 'whatever' is bad in the long term then it should be a given that we should be biased against that 'whatever'.

 

The same with judgements.  If a person has been unreliable nine time out of ten it is only natural that we should judge that person as being unreliable.

 

And this applies to every aspect of our life.  Including politics and religion.

 

But then, we should always leave our emotions home when we go out discussing controversial issues.

 

[Sebastian]

Just stating the obvious I think, but outside of sharing political views on a Taoist forum, the Spirit of Dao Bums has always been tinkering with systems and sharing experiences about them. And the Bums part unfortunately is never following through on any one system, switching systems when we feel like it, or piecing a new system based on other systems... Just keeping it real here. Of course not everyone here does that, but we've all done it to some extent, and I think that's where our name comes from. Hence we are Bums. And I don't think tinkering is a bad thing.... It means we are open and willing to try new things. Turned out OK for that McGuyver guy. I also think this forum has a ton of valuable information about systems and teachers from a first hand perspective. So it's good stuff.

[wandelaar]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

As you pointed out, objective observation of the facts.  If the historical facts indicate that 'whatever' is bad in the long term then it should be a given that we should be biased against that 'whatever'.

 

The same with judgements.  If a person has been unreliable nine time out of ten it is only natural that we should judge that person as being unreliable.

 

I wouldn't call that biased, that's just plain common sense. I have nothing against that. What I call biased is distorting the facts or cherry picking those facts that suit one's case and ignoring others that refute one's case.

 

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

And this applies to every aspect of our life.  Including politics and religion.

 

Correct.

 

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

But then, we should always leave our emotions home when we go out discussing controversial issues.

 

No - we shouldn't leave our emotions home, because than we couldn't make any value judgements at all. What I think one should do is make a sharp distinction between the facts and the political values on holds dear. When you present your case in that format others could evaluate whether the arguments you are making are correct for somebody holding the political values that you do. And that again could be an objective evaluation. Such discussions would be very interesting, but are hardly ever found on the internet. Most political discussions aren't really discussions at all.

[windwalker]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

The main thing that is keeping me from participating in the political threads is that being biased is consider as something that is OK.

 

 

Actually you should be honest it's you.  You are the only one that is keeping you from participating however you want to participate.

 

You're asking others to do what you can't do, don't want to, or unable to, for yourself. 

 

That is to control something outside yourself that you should be able to filter within yourself.

 

On a site dedicated to Spiritual Development and understanding it would seem that those places one feels uncomfortable in would be the most productive places to participate in.

 

Allowing one to work on it.

Edited November 10, 2018 by windwalker

[windwalker]

This seems to be a recurring theme on many threads. 

 

Questioning the spirit of the site and those who participate in certain discussions that seem to generate more interest than others.

 

The obvious answer to make discussions of their own directing , promoting or generating the interest that they feel is being directed in other areas. 

 

I for one enjoy the discussions with people on a site such as this because of their spiritual backgrounds, and inner understanding that allow for conversations that normally don't occur on other sites with the same depth, openness, and intuition.

 

MU

Edited November 10, 2018 by windwalker

[wandelaar]

@ Windwalker

 

I have had more than enough political discussions in my younger years, but I found out that the large majority of them were completely useless and took up inordinate amounts of my time and energy. There is nothing wrong in refusing to participate in activities that you know will be a waste of time and no fun besides.

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by wandelaar

[windwalker]

Just now, wandelaar said:

There is nothing wrong in refusing to participate in activities that you know will be a waste of time and no fun besides.

 

Wasn't what my post responded to nor what was said.

Totally agree about participation,,,I do note a theme that seems to be being repeated lately concerning

threads that those posting about do not participate in feeling it some how changes the nature of this site. 

 

Lots of threads here I can't relate to because in some aspects they'er to specialized or speak to things

I dont find interesting.  Would not think of questioning them understanding that for some they have

an interest  in or serve a function.  

[silent thunder]

Was reading the bathroom stall at work the other day.  The topic and tone of the Trump/HRC thread there is nigh on exactly like the tone I've read in the two times I've poked my nose into our main resident political thread here. 

 

It struck me that bathroom stalls were the original forums.   Before the interwebs... we had to use sharpies and bathroom stalls to post our rhetoric.  It's just harder to edit your posts on the bathroom forum.  Now it's so much easier.  Ain't progress grand?

 

 

[Aetherous]

It seems to me personally that a thread like this is in the wrong section of the forum...being here in General Discussion, it's like bringing the political atmosphere into the spiritual areas, which in my view is the opposite of the purpose of this thread. Political stuff should be kept in its own section, where it won't dominate the forum.

 

Edited to add: Also, here's a thought. If enough forum members really can't stand the idea of political discussions existing on this site at all, perhaps a subforum could be made similar to the "men's haven" or "women's sanctuary" subforums, where the discussions aren't accessible by those who have zero interest in politics or who are bothered by it.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Aetherous

[Aetherous]

I'm not offended, but I'm really not sure why people are laughing? You guys want to bring political discussions into this area?

[Fa Xin]

The spirit of the forum is whatever your reading I guess. 

 

If the one little Off-Topic section is what you read then I suppose that’s the case. 

 

I tend to read the spiritual discussions myself. 

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

I'm not offended, but I'm really not sure why people are laughing? You guys want to bring political discussions into this area?

 

I'm laughing because of the irony that the choice of the section this topic is placed in aggravates the problem that the topic itself notices. You are right in that. So you scored a point. On the other hand placing this topic in a section that is ignored by those who don't want to talk politics would also be senseless. And so this little discussion itself becomes an example of the silly disputes that abound in political discussions where scoring points and winning debates are considered most important and serious argumentation is hardly found at all. So there really is a lot to laugh about this on multiple levels, when you view this little quibble from a distance.

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by wandelaar

[Aetherous]

I'm really not sure what sense there is in having a political related thread in this section, where people don't want this discussion. I'll report the original post simply to get the moderator's attention, and hope that it's quickly moved to the appropriate area, so that this type of discussion doesn't damage the Spirit of the Daobums (which is basically what Sebastian said it is).

[Kar3n]

How is a political discussion any different than the long-standing, sometimes heated MoPai debates or the Buddahist and Daoist discussions that have turned nasty? Where was all of the concern about the spirit of the bums in those instances?

 

Something to think about...

There has not been a single ban based on political discussion. The same can't be said of the "spiritual". 

[s1va]

*** Mod Team Notice ***

 

This post was reported as not a spiritual topic and a political topic that does not belong in General section of the forum.

 

Since this thread raises the question about spirit of the forum, the discussions here and about staff, I feel the right placement for this thread is under Forum and Tech Support section.  I will be moving this thread under that subsection.

 

In my view this is not a political discussion.  This thread talks about the political discussions and the spirit of the forum and raises some questions.  Though it is not a general spiritual topic, it is also not a complete off-grid political discussion as far as I can see in the discussion so far.

[wandelaar]

41 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

How is a political discussion any different than the long-standing, sometimes heated MoPai debates or the Buddahist and Daoist discussions that have turned nasty? Where was all of the concern about the spirit of the bums in those instances?

 

Politics and religion are in the same boat as regards the (often extreme) emotions involved. So where some of the participants consider their particular spiritual path as the ultimate truth one can expect the same kind of trouble in Buddhist and Taoist discussions as in the political threads.

 

I didn't like the endlessly repeating MoPai threads either but considered it the responsibility of the moderators to handle it, and eventually a decision was taken that stopped them. I don't remember other Buddhist or Taoist threads that turned nasty, but maybe that was before I became a member. Doubtlessly there have been such threads.

 

As regards the political discussions I am happy with the solutions that have now been implemented. Political discussions are still possible - as they should - but they have become less prominent in the presentation of the forum.

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by wandelaar

[Wu Ming Jen]

Lets get back to that more pie discussion and get this thread in the pit.  Trump absolute insane Idiot put in office by absolute insane idiot voters. Majority wins that makes us all look like idiots. If america was not great before we are approaching shitty status now. I love a one sided perspective It is awesome.

 

Just a little taste of American politics before we get back to trump.... I mean more pie. 

[Marblehead]

23 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Lets get back to that more pie discussion and get this thread in the pit. 

I would have cherry pie a la mode without the pits.

 

[silent thunder]

How could politics (or anything for that matter) be devoid of spirit i find myself wondering?

 

Politics to me, seem to deal with the practical application of our foundational, collective, cultural moral and spiritual notions.  Politics to me, is something of a barometer of Spirit.  It's the process of dealing with morality, integrity, corruption, poverty, wealth, resources...

 

How will we respond as a culture to aggression?  How do we treat those among us who are infirm, disabled, impoverished?  How should we allocate our collective resources?  How much of our various commodities do we dispense to armaments versus education versus health care?    What constitutes an actionable breaking of our collective ideas of the Law?  What Laws do we choose to create and enforce?  How do we address the way we treat people in the work place, at school and in public?  All of these areas that are determined by political activity are to me, steeped utterly in the most foundational of spiritual conceptual noumena and phenomena.

 

Spiritual to the core is every act of politics to me.  But then, I consider every movement in the bathroom to be equally spiritual, so... as always, let my words convey only as much resonance as they do for you.  I'm not a qualified observer in any of your lives, so for me to try and convince you to alter your manner of interaction with the all in all, is way out of my jurisdiction. 

 

The reason I tend to avoid political threads and conversations wherever they occur is due to the unshakable notion that I no longer perceive life accurately enough to push others into my current manner of perceiving life, nor do I sense I know enough about other's lives to be able to with any degree of conviction, begin to assert how they should think.  I sense no need, or ability to cajole others into being other than they are.  I respond to actions.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by silent thunder
added the words 'tend to' to the first sentence in the last paragraph

[Lost in Translation]

Life is about living, and living with others is about interaction.

 

Spiritual defines our interactions with the divine. Political defines our interaction with each other.

 

The stronger one's opinion in either regard, the more potential there is for harsh feelings when confronted with an opposing point of view. The solution is not less, but more communication.

 

I accept that there are people on this forum I don't understand, and who don't understand me.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I'm still working on trying to understand myself.