Mair 20:3

[Marblehead]

Prodigal Northpalace was collecting contributions for Duke Ling of Wey to make a set of bells.  He built an altar outside the gate of the outer city wall and, in three months, the set was complete even to the hanging of the upper and lower tiers.

Seeing this, Prince Ch'ingchi {{The son of King Liao of the state of Wu, he fled to the state of Wey when his father was assassinated.}} inquired of him, saying, "What arts did you employ?"

"In the midst of unity," said Prodigal, "I wouldn't dare to employ anything.  I have heard it said,

'After all the carving and chiseling,
Return to the simplicity of the unhewn log.'
I was naively nescient,
Ingenuously indolent.
In droves and throngs,
I escorted those who were going,
and welcomed those who were coming.
Those who wished to come
were not prohibited;
Those who wished to go
were not prevented.

I was indulgent with those who were strongly opposed, went along with those who were indecisive, relied on those who did their utmost.  Thus I was able to collect contributions morning and evening without meeting with the slightest rebuff.  How much more will this be true of one who follows the great path!"

[wandelaar]

Is this about a kind of tax collector?

[Marblehead]

I think it has more to do with the natural flow of things without having first placed expectations on others.

 

[wandelaar]

Quote

I was indulgent with those who were strongly opposed, went along with those who were indecisive, relied on those who did their utmost. 

 

Yes - allowing people to be themselves makes it easier to deal with them.

[OldDog]

Amusing story. While,  as asked by wandelaar, he was not a tax collector per se, he was operating under the legate of the Duke. No doubt that had a certain persuasive value of its own. But the story has more the flavor of solicitation. The skills employed were more those of a good salesman. 

 

By recognizing the manner of those he approached he was able to accomplish his goal. If that's not doing by not doing, I don't know what is.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by OldDog
Syntax

[Taoist Texts]

Yes, he was a tax collector. And no, there is no wu-wei in this story)

Edited November 13, 2018 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

I still have a problem with identifying a tax collector.  I have no verbal basis for my problem.

 

[Stosh]

Its an example of a soft sell for charitable contribution. 

Being taxed is a forced compliance. 

Its wu wei because the people were fine with the project , liked the community spirit, and he did not instigate hostility or resentment.

imo

Edited November 13, 2018 by Stosh

[Taoist Texts]

All good suggestions above. No one likes a tax collector and  this taxation was supposed to be enforced. Thats the whole point of the story, the guy did the opposite: he made himself likable, and did not enforce.

 

This story is the class of stories in ZZ for which the sinologists have a special name : they call them the ''knack stories'.

Quote

Roger T. Ames - 2016 - ‎Religion

In doing so, I will look at three literary genres found in Zhuangzi: knack stories, fantastic tales, and accounts of ecstatic experience. In starting out, let me praise .

Not one of these knack stories contain wu-wei, because these are stories about lay individuals. In ZZ, wu-wei very strictly pertains to Heaven and his reps (mostly kings), never the commoners.

[silent thunder]

Seems to me wei wu wei can only ever be experienced by the experiencer and seldom accurately deduced by a perceiver... but that's just my take on things at this time. 

 

There are times when I must exert some force in my task, yet in the midst of my pursuit, there is no burden in the work, the exertion is the natural progression of the task; though requiring muscle, it veritably flies to completion and when done I am left energized not weakened and spent.  From the outside it may seem I strain, yet my experiene is one of pure flow.

 

Other times I may seem to be utterly peaceful while sitting still, yet in my experience I am willfully straining mightily to maintain some semblance of calm as the storm rages and I resist utterly.  <shrug>  just my take.

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

In ZZ, wu-wei very strictly pertains to Heaven and his reps (mostly kings), never the commoners.

What ever gave you that impression?

[OldDog]

Seems we are struggling over what wu wei is or isn't. The more general point of view likens it to flow ... although that does not quite seem completely satisfactory. The stricter point of view seems to point to something more formal and separate from mere flow ... as yet undefined.

 

We seem  be hung up on the notion that if a text does not specifically say wu wei then it can't possibly be representative of wu wei. We seem quick to declare something as not wu wei without much in the way of supporting argument.

 

Wu wie is generally considered to be a ... if not the ... core daoist concept. I would hate to think that it is something that is n ot accessible to anyone.

[Taoist Texts]

38 minutes ago, Stosh said:

What ever gave you that impression?

Good question.

https://ctext.org/zhuangzi/ens?searchu=无为

 

At the link, there are all passages in  ZZ  that are undoubtedly  about wu-wei, because they contain that word. Its just 3 pages in all. You can glance through them yourself or take my word for it: none of them features a commoner with or without a knack.

 

Wu-wei is a behavior of highest order, something which heaven, dao or the king does/not. Equating it with a knack or a flow is not even apples and oranges, its more like ... i donno guns and roses, or something.

[Taoist Texts]

41 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

Wu wie is generally considered to be a ... if not the ... core daoist concept.

Yes it does. That being a correct POV depends on how the notion of daoism is defined.

[wandelaar]

How often does it happen that an allegorical story explicitly mentions the phenomenon or issue that it deals with?

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Yes it does. That being a correct POV depends on how the notion of daoism is defined.

1 As You consider it--  How do you think Daoism , if being defined by wu wei , ties in with chapter one TTC , or the Dao itself ? 

(I don't see how you can tie being an effective ruler , directly speaking,to anything -to do with -the dao. )

 

2 Since none of us are actual Kings , and you're considering being a ruler to be essential , to the applicability of the teachings of Daoism , what would all daoism stuff have anything to do with us ...

AND  OR what would it have to do with Chuang ( often considered to be an anarchist ,, which is anathema to rulership.?) 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Stosh

[Taoist Texts]

16 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

How often does it happen that an allegorical story explicitly mentions the phenomenon or issue that it deals with?

How do you know which issue it deals with if it is allegorical?

[Stosh]

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

How do you know which issue it deals with if it is allegorical?

Oooh , ooh ,  I know that one ! 

It deals with all the potential issues that fit the paradigm. 

[Taoist Texts]

19 minutes ago, Stosh said:

1 As You consider it--  How do you think Daoism , if being defined by wu wei , ties in with chapter one TTC , or the Dao itself ? 

(I don't see how you can tie being an effective ruler , has , directly speaking, anything to do with -the dao. )

Chpt 1 posits two things A. a Dao exists B. It is defined by 'constancy' as opposed to the rest of the world.

Wu-wei is introduced in subsequent chapters.

TTC is entirely about the Dao of the kingship, the every line of it is about the king who is guided by Dao.

Quote

 

2 Since none of us are actual Kings , and you're considering being a ruler to be essential , to the applicability of the teachings of Daoism , what would all daoism stuff have anything to do with us ...

AND  OR what would it have to do with Chuang ( often considered to be an anarchist ,, which is anathema to rulership.?) 

being a ruler is essential for using wu-wei but... There are many other ideas in daoism (and in Chuang-zi) besides wu-wei that a commoner can use: like i said, wu-wei is only a tiny part of  Chuang-zi (just 30 mentions in the whole book).

 

and if people want to group all of these idea under the sound-bitey misnomer of wu-wei, fine. But if they start with the misnomer, what use are the ideas gonna be?

Edited November 13, 2018 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

12 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Oooh , ooh ,  I know that one ! 

It deals with all the potential issues that fit the paradigm. 

how do you know what the paradigm is?) Remember its all allegorical.

[OldDog]

31 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

How do you know which issue it deals with if it is allegorical?

 

Here we are back to definitions again. Not everyone requires an explicit definition ... which to this point still eludes us.

 

Still find an exclusive interpretation hard to swallow. Seems like where wu wei is mentioned in connection with emperors, kings and others the idea is that it is a more natural way to govern rather than a state only accessible to royalty.

[Stosh]

24 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

how do you know what the paradigm is?) Remember its all allegorical.

From personal experience we are presented with a relationship we intuitively should get. 

"like a man crossing a river beginning to thaw' - the man has concern and so either gingerly moves along, or gets the heck off the ice hastily. 

Either view of it is a valid completion of the relationship- format - allegory.. The subject is regarding caution. 

[wandelaar]

Taoist Texts completely ignores the criticism of his methodology. I have seen him play this game before in the discussion on General Relativity, and I don't want get sucked into it again. The interpretation of allegorical texts is a difficult thing to do, but nevertheless some measure of scholarly consensus has been reached in the modern literature on the general philosophy that is expressed in the Chuang tzu. I am not basing my ideas on New Age literature but on careful translations of the Chuang tzu and scholarly books on Chinese philosophy and Taoism. Compared to those the position of Taoist Texts is idiosyncratic and extreme, and as he is using a fundamentally faulty methodology I don't think it's likely to be correct. What is correct however is that the Tao Te Ching is to a large extent a political treatise meant for the ruling class, but we are not talking about the Tao Te Ching here. And even if we did, the book could still contain wisdom for common folks to be worth the effort.

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Taoist Texts completely ignores the criticism of his methodology. I have seen him play this game before in the discussion on General Relativity, and I don't want get sucked into it again. The interpretation of allegorical texts is a difficult thing to do, but nevertheless some measure of scholarly consensus has been reached in the modern literature on the general philosophy that is expressed in the Chuang tzu. I am not basing my ideas on New Age literature but on careful translations of the Chuang tzu and scholarly books on Chinese philosophy and Taoism. Compared to those the position of Taoist Texts is idiosyncratic and extreme, and as he is using a fundamentally faulty methodology I don't think it's likely to be correct. What is correct however is that the Tao Te Ching is to a large extent a political treatise meant for the ruling class, but we are not talking about the Tao Te Ching here. And even if we did, the book could still contain wisdom for common folks to be worth the effort.

 

I consider whatever is said here , to be entertainment mostly, so I don't mind if there is some gamesmanship. I can accept that TTC could have been geared for the intelligentsia , but since those people aren't really qualitatively different from you and I , I don't see it mattering. 

It also doesn't matter because the TTC is still dealing with Dao - the way of things and the way of things is no 'respecter of men' , the sun does not eternally shine on the wealthy , and the pitfalls of ill considered pursuit ,suck for any or all persons. 

Millions of Chinese recognize the teachings as applicable to themselves despite mentioning Dukes, Kings ,Scholars ,and Butchers. Are you a butcher by trade?  I'm not , do you think the chapters on things with butchers only applies to butchers , not plumbers ? and if it mentions a quail ,frog or turtle , the lesson is intended for quail, frogs and turtles ,respectively,,,, not humans ? Certainly not , right? they are allegorical and it matters not one whit, whether the protagonist is a duke or a hunchbacked horn-dog. 

[wandelaar]

10 hours ago, Stosh said:

I consider whatever is said here , to be entertainment mostly, so I don't mind if there is some gamesmanship. 

 

My search for an acceptable interpretation of ancient Taoism is not finished yet, and so I see the appearance of fallacies and tricks in otherwise serious topics as a serious obstruction. It takes almost no time to post tons of nonsense but it takes inordinate amounts of time and energy to post well reasoned refutations. So the "gamesman" in such discussions is almost certain to "win". That's why I consider it best to not get sucked into those silly games at all.

 

Maybe your ideas about Taoist philosophy have already taken a definite shape and so you can better appreciate playing some tricks and having some fun?