What is the Taoist religion?

[Marblehead]

7 hours ago, dmattwads said:

Maybe to help narrow down the topic of bit more into differentiate what would be the difference between taoism and Chinese folk religion?

Actually, I wouldn't even call it "folk religion".  Culture, yes.  And yes, Taoist Philosophy draws upon that.

 

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, dmattwads said:

Maybe to help narrow down the topic of bit more into differentiate what would be the difference between taoism and Chinese folk religion?

Thats actually a good question. The difference is twofold 1 the folk rites are not codified in the official taoist literature 2 the officiants are not full-time taoist monks

[Nintendao]

https://www.youtube.com/user/manchuheseri/videos

Direct from the verdant Qingcheng Mountain (青城山) "Cyan City"

 

[rideforever]

Speculating, are relgiions ever any different from each other ?
A teacher disseminates a teaching, then the seagulls flock around and ... try to re-imagine it as an institution ?  Then come the politicians, the glamourous leaders, the colourful robes and whatever else, just to make really amazing theatre.
So contrived is the theatre that you'd be lucky if you could remember the original teaching.
Religion is a kind of social entertainment ?
Too negative ?
And the hierarchies ... on the road to Capernaum Jesus caught his students arguing about who gets to sit in the big chair after he's gone.  I see in the Cyan City they have several tiers of teachers, with different coloured robes, and probably the most cunning politician sitting at the top of this tower.
Whilst real students who understand the purpose are cleaning the toilets.
That's what normally happens, that's why it's best to study with an individual who has no organisation, once you have reached a certain point.
Oh and then they probably spend their time teaching people the "correct" way of doing things, endless tellings off, like the endless corrections certain teachers do to you right after slagging off all your previous teachers.
Wow, this is truly great comedy on this planet, same movie running over and again !!!
Are you not amused !

Anyway Tao is not a religion, it is not religionisable because it is Real, it is self-whole, self-contained, self-real.

Edited November 28, 2018 by rideforever

[wandelaar]

2 hours ago, Nintendao said:

https://www.youtube.com/user/manchuheseri/videos

Direct from the verdant Qingcheng Mountain (青城山) "Cyan City"

 

Is there an explanation of the symbolic meaning of the rituals? Why are there trigrams on their robes, and what are the strips they are carrying around?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

39 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

2 hours ago, Nintendao said:

https://www.youtube.com/user/manchuheseri/videos

Direct from the verdant Qingcheng Mountain (青城山) "Cyan City"

 

Is there an explanation of the symbolic meaning of the rituals? Why are there trigrams on their robes, and what are the strips they are carrying around?

 

Yes, there is a vast literature of explanation which incorporates practically every aspect of traditional Chinese cosmology and physiology and bases them on the fundamental patterns of the Hetu and Loshu.  I could spend pages describing even the basics, and have done some explication of it in my various posts, but no single post or thread to which I could point that would would serve as a satisfactory discussion, nor do I have time right now to post more detail here.  The works of Michael Saso describe it, as well as other authors, so that now there is a relatively large literature in Western languages.  As a curiosity the pioneering work of the Dutch sinologist Jan de Groot might be of interest to you.  In spite of its age it is still considered to be a useful reference, though it has been largely displaced by more recent work.

 

ZYD

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

what are the strips they are carrying around?

 Hu (Chinese: 笏; pinyin: hù) is a ritual tablet or flat scepter of Chinese origin, which is used in Japanand also currently or historically in China, Korea, Vietnam and Ryukyu.

The Hu was originally used at court for the taking of notes and was usually made of bamboo. Officials could record speaking notes on the tablet ahead of the audience, and record the Emperor's instructions during the audience. Likewise the Emperor could use it for notes during ceremonies. It eventually evolved into a ritual implement. It also became customary for officials to shield their mouths with their hu when speaking to the Emperor. The hu can be made of different material according to the holder's rank: sovereigns used jade (similar to, but not the same as, the ceremonial jade scepter gui 圭), nobles used ivory, and court officials used bamboo. Japanese shaku is usually made of woods like Japanese yew, holly, cherry, sakaki or Japanese cedar.^[1] It also became a religious instrument in Taoism and Shintoism. The Buddhist god King Yama, judge of the underworld, is often depicted bearing the hu.

The hu or shaku is often seen in portraits of Chinese Mandarins, Japanese shōguns, emperors and noblemen, but is now used mostly by Taoist priests and Shinto priests (the kannushi).

[Nintendao]

I love the way this fellow explains things. He's got a hundred other videos if anyone's interested in exploring.

 

TinYatDragon - Jee Sifu

[Rara]

On 14/11/2018 at 11:18 PM, dmattwads said:

This might seem like a funny post for someone who has been on this forum for so long, but I wonder, what exactly is the Taoist religion?

 

When I initially started my spiritual path I began with Qigong. I liked the health benefits, and sense of peace it brought and most of all that it was not a religion. A few years prior I had left evangelical Christianity and was rather burned out on the notion of religion in general and was certainly not eager to join another one. That being the case the secular nature of Qigong suited me just fine.

 

As time came to pass though some of the more philosophical aspects of the Taoism from which Qigong draws from like Tao, Yin and Yang, Wu Wei, began to raise questions with in me. I began to want answers but found finding anything definitive was very difficult. I found the well defined question and answer system of Buddhism to be very satisfying but still find myself wondering how someone "practices Taoism"?

 

I realize there are different schools of Taoism and different methods of practicing, but not sure what the basics of being a Taoist and practicing Taoism are? Especially as a religion.

 

I'm saving up to go to Wudang and find out. Master Gu has popped up on YT in the past year, so maybe one day I will be able to learn from him.

 

I don't think Taoism as a religion is the "way" forward, but I'd still like to learn at the very least.

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, Rara said:

I'm saving up to go to Wudang and find out. Master Gu has popped up on YT in the past year, so maybe one day I will be able to learn from him.

 

I don't think Taoism as a religion is the "way" forward, but I'd still like to learn at the very least.

 

Let us know what you find...

 

[Rara]

On 17/11/2018 at 1:41 AM, dmattwads said:

Maybe to help narrow down the topic of bit more into differentiate what would be the difference between taoism and Chinese folk religion?

 

I've heard Taoism described as a Chinese Folk Religion.

[Rara]

6 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Let us know what you find...

 

 

One day I will. Gotta keep saving (I want to go to Kolkata, Lahore and also Yunnan in the same trip)

[flowing hands]

On 12/19/2018 at 1:57 AM, Nintendao said:

I love the way this fellow explains things. He's got a hundred other videos if anyone's interested in exploring.

 

TinYatDragon - Jee Sifu

 

This man is a fraudulent, he has made up his own sect and self appointed himself. He is obsessed with guns and knives. 

[Nintendao]

On 12/23/2018 at 5:44 PM, flowing hands said:

 

This man is a fraudulent, he has made up his own sect and self appointed himself. He is obsessed with guns and knives. 

 

So in other words he'd fit perfectly with a great many other North American religion ministers today

 

I still find his shows fun and extremely informative, for what it is. Will not be drinking the kool-aid for sure (could not afford it regardless!)

 

If maverick maven magicians hawking elaborate incense altars is not your cup of tea, Yun Xiang Tseng is still doing a good job bringing the official Wu Dang concept in Colorado.

 

[flowing hands]

On 12/26/2018 at 8:03 PM, Nintendao said:

 

So in other words he'd fit perfectly with a great many other North American religion ministers today

 

I still find his shows fun and extremely informative, for what it is. Will not be drinking the kool-aid for sure (could not afford it regardless!)

 

If maverick maven magicians hawking elaborate incense altars is not your cup of tea, Yun Xiang Tseng is still doing a good job bringing the official Wu Dang concept in Colorado.

 

 

Shame some of what he says is misguided by tradition. When we worship and pray to the Immortals we are not praying to ourselves. We are begging the Immortals to intervene and to teach or help us. He is almost suggesting that Immortals are just symbols, symbols that we are using to utilize for  self virtue, ie to self teach. The point of Dao religion is to believe in Immortals as real powerful beings  that if we beg, they can come in person and teach us.

[vonkrankenhaus]

On 11/28/2018 at 2:13 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

the pioneering work of the Dutch sinologist Jan de Groot might be of interest to you.  In spite of its age it is still considered to be a useful reference

 

This book "The Religious Systems of China" by J.J. M. deGroot is not going to teach much about Taoism.

 

It is a book written in large part to denigrate Chinese philosophy while supposedly "describing".

 

Cannot describe what they do not understand.

 

Here's a quote:

 

"Feng Shui is a mere chaos of childish absurdities and refined mysticism, cemented together, by sophistic reasonings, into a system, which is in reality a ridiculous caricature of science".

 

Many more even worse than that.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[vonkrankenhaus]

On 12/23/2018 at 10:54 AM, Rara said:

I'm saving up to go to Wudang and find out. Master Gu has popped up

 

Master Gu is not going to teach anyone Taoism.

 

He doesn't even understand the TaiJiTu.

 

"So these two dots,, represents, uh,,, eyes"

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Wu Ming Jen]

The Daoist Morning Scripture is mostly chanted in the hour of ‘Mao’ (4th Earthly Branch; 5-7am). At this time the Original Yang initiates its rise and Yin Qi has not yet stirred. Food and fluids have not yet entered (the body), while Qi and Blood are not yet in disarray. With a concentrated Spirit (Shen) contemplate the Upright. Through the Morning Scripture one will reach a harmonious and smooth-flowing state of Qi and Blood, consequently the vessels, arteries and veins will connect with the orifices with beneficial effects for the health.

The time-period for chanting the

 

Evening Scripture is mainly in the  hour of ‘You’ (10th  Earthly Branch; 5-7pm). At this time people’s fatigue builds up, Yang Qi wanes, Yin Qi gradually flourishes and Evil Qi drifts and meanders around. Through the Evening Scripture one is able to dispel tiredness, settle restlessness, as well as calm the Ethereal Soul (Hun) and the Corporeal Soul (Po). Furthermore, it is beneficial for the quality of sleep.

 

The vibrational frequencies of the sound waves of the scripture recitation are capable of cleansing our Five Zang-Organs and Six Fu-Viscera, our Qi and Blood, meridians and channels, as well as our cells. It can heighten our energetic fields’ vibrational frequencies. Therefore the masters of the past all placed utmost emphasis on the recitation of the scriptures. When reciting the scriptures, we must take a deep breath, in order to recite and chant the scriptures as long as possible to the best of our ability. It both increases the lung functions and amplifies the lung capacity.

 

Through kneeling during recitation, we are able to temper the post-heavenly formed two kneecaps and to increase the strength of our knees, as well as to foster the robustness of the True Qi of the Gate of Life. Kow-towing and prostrating in reverence enable us to refine the post-heaven cranium’s fontanel and the pineal gland. Moreover it is beneficial to the circulation of Qi and Blood in our body and to opening our wisdom. Wholeheartedly reciting and chanting the scriptures of sagely appellation enable us to obtain the mercy of high-dimensional Realized Ones and sages, eliminating our own body’s karmic afflictions, far distancing ourselves from negative energetic fields.

 

 

[Spotless]

On 11/15/2018 at 3:53 AM, wandelaar said:

 

Might be an interesting read although Chuang tzu would probably be considered as not the real thing by the author, let alone western Taoists. Based on the preview the book probably errs in the opposite directing of the new Age books it criticises. Maybe I will buy it nevertheless, but I have hardly any space left for new books.

Do you have any recommendations?

[wandelaar]

40 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Do you have any recommendations?

 

No. I have decided not to delve into Taoist religion. I made several  attempts lately to appreciate Taoist religion, but I found out that I simply can't. Not my cup of thee!

[flowing hands]

3 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

The Daoist Morning Scripture is mostly chanted in the hour of ‘Mao’ (4th Earthly Branch; 5-7am). At this time the Original Yang initiates its rise and Yin Qi has not yet stirred. Food and fluids have not yet entered (the body), while Qi and Blood are not yet in disarray. With a concentrated Spirit (Shen) contemplate the Upright. Through the Morning Scripture one will reach a harmonious and smooth-flowing state of Qi and Blood, consequently the vessels, arteries and veins will connect with the orifices with beneficial effects for the health.

The time-period for chanting the

 

Evening Scripture is mainly in the  hour of ‘You’ (10th  Earthly Branch; 5-7pm). At this time people’s fatigue builds up, Yang Qi wanes, Yin Qi gradually flourishes and Evil Qi drifts and meanders around. Through the Evening Scripture one is able to dispel tiredness, settle restlessness, as well as calm the Ethereal Soul (Hun) and the Corporeal Soul (Po). Furthermore, it is beneficial for the quality of sleep.

 

The vibrational frequencies of the sound waves of the scripture recitation are capable of cleansing our Five Zang-Organs and Six Fu-Viscera, our Qi and Blood, meridians and channels, as well as our cells. It can heighten our energetic fields’ vibrational frequencies. Therefore the masters of the past all placed utmost emphasis on the recitation of the scriptures. When reciting the scriptures, we must take a deep breath, in order to recite and chant the scriptures as long as possible to the best of our ability. It both increases the lung functions and amplifies the lung capacity.

 

Through kneeling during recitation, we are able to temper the post-heavenly formed two kneecaps and to increase the strength of our knees, as well as to foster the robustness of the True Qi of the Gate of Life. Kow-towing and prostrating in reverence enable us to refine the post-heaven cranium’s fontanel and the pineal gland. Moreover it is beneficial to the circulation of Qi and Blood in our body and to opening our wisdom. Wholeheartedly reciting and chanting the scriptures of sagely appellation enable us to obtain the mercy of high-dimensional Realized Ones and sages, eliminating our own body’s karmic afflictions, far distancing ourselves from negative energetic fields.

 

 

After all these years of learning from the Immortals and practicing some of the stuff your saying, this seems like going backwards. What one is taught, or even believes, is not what one would practice nor believe further down the line. When one is at one with the Dao all this is just superficial and merely words taught by others who believe and make others believe because it is tradition and making what is quite simple into complex religious practice, that misses the mark by miles. large books are written all about this stuff, complex rituals and practices are evolved out of it and so suppression and mystique is formed, like many other major religions, making what is a simple philosophy and practice into a laughing joke. I remember joining some Tao organisation and it was so absurd, they taught that you had to wear the right coloured cap at the right times of the day etc. Mankind and all other life was born of the Dao naked and so were closer to the Dao than any priest pretending to do ritual to utilize this qi and that qi etc. etc.

The Immortals follow the Dao, the Dao has no mercy for anyone or anything. Religion and ritual is the beginning of loss of the Dao. People and the world are far better off following the Dao and not religions.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Dear flowing hands, Someone asked what is Taoist religion.... well this is how the day starts and how it ends with 8 hours of kung fu, chi gung and meditation in between. Then there are the evening classes for advanced students and performance groups. 

 

I am sorry you lose the tao with your kung fu brothers and sisters during morning and evening scriptures. The significance of what appears to be silly hats and superficial ritual is in direct relationship of the highest order. I am sorry you had a bad experience.

 

The rest of my post is relating simple things like kneeling in the riding crane position to help strengthen the knees and increasing the micro circulation of blood you know  things of that nature. 

 

It also seems you may have a problem with  high-dimensional Realized Ones  and religion which is totally fine if it is not your thing. 

 

 

[flowing hands]

31 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Dear flowing hands, Someone asked what is Taoist religion.... well this is how the day starts and how it ends with 8 hours of kung fu, chi gung and meditation in between. Then there are the evening classes for advanced students and performance groups. 

 

I am sorry you lose the tao with your kung fu brothers and sisters during morning and evening scriptures. The significance of what appears to be silly hats and superficial ritual is in direct relationship of the highest order. I am sorry you had a bad experience.

 

The rest of my post is relating simple things like kneeling in the riding crane position to help strengthen the knees and increasing the micro circulation of blood you know  things of that nature. 

 

It also seems you may have a problem with  high-dimensional Realized Ones  and religion which is totally fine if it is not your thing. 

 

 

 

You get me wrong I never have been taught scriptures only the DDJ. The highest order are way past hats and rituals and my masters are 'realized' Immortals. When I first started 36 years ago I did the things you are talking about, Qi gong 5 am in the morning, learn't thirteen different styles of kung Fu etc and did all that stuff. But the path of Li Erh Xian shi's teachings is to do with Dao Xin, (real Mao Shan), and not all that other stuff which is really quite superficial. So when I beg the Immortal master to come and teach me, it is not religion or ritual it is showing respect and practicing part of the Dao Xin practices. The Dao Xin practices are the highest level that anyone can reach and practice and eventually leads to spiritual Immortality. I have a robe, you can see me in it in my video, but I've only wore it twice. Why? Because the highest practices in Dao are beyond all of that. So when you see me practice I'm in jeans with holes in them and paint spattered t-shirts.

 

" I wear rough clothing, but keep my treasure in my heart"

 

[dawei]

2 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

You get me wrong I never have been taught scriptures only the DDJ. The highest order are way past hats and rituals and my masters are 'realized' Immortals. When I first started 36 years ago I did the things you are talking about, Qi gong 5 am in the morning, learn't thirteen different styles of kung Fu etc and did all that stuff. But the path of Li Erh Xian shi's teachings is to do with Dao Xin, (real Mao Shan), and not all that other stuff which is really quite superficial. So when I beg the Immortal master to come and teach me, it is not religion or ritual it is showing respect and practicing part of the Dao Xin practices. The Dao Xin practices are the highest level that anyone can reach and practice and eventually leads to spiritual Immortality. I have a robe, you can see me in it in my video, but I've only wore it twice. Why? Because the highest practices in Dao are beyond all of that. So when you see me practice I'm in jeans with holes in them and paint spattered t-shirts.

 

" I wear rough clothing, but keep my treasure in my heart"

 

 

Re: Dao Xin.

 

This has echoed for years in my mind  as a Dao compass phrase from you.  Rarely does something stick around so long in one's thoughts unless it affects them.   It might appear to be, Dao's Heart but that seems wrong... or the Heart of Dao is also wrong... more like, A heart for Dao;  A heart of/for Dao could imply that one's heart is simply returned to Dao or intrinsically understands Dao.

 

Regardless of semantics... begging or meeting an immortal is quite a thing.  

 

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

What is dao Xin? The middle path? 

 

Zhong – 中 – zhōng

1. center, middle, inside, heart
2. central
3. in the midst, in the process, in the middle, in the course, throughout
4. moderate, medium, intermediary
5. neutral
6. hit (target)
7. attain
8. to hit the mark, to hit the target, to be correct, to be successful

 

Xin – 心 – xīn

1. mind, heart, spirit, soul; thoughts, ideas
2. attention, mind, interest, intention
3. heart, inner feelings, emotion, emotional state
4. wholeheartedness, sincerity, true heart
5. sympathy, heart, consideration, generous disposition
6. meaning, center, core, essence; answer (as to a riddle)
7. heart, mind, core; spirit, vitality; inner strength, marrow

 

Dao – 道 -dào

1. word
2. way, path, road
3. method, way
4. the way

Philosophy: The Way As it Is  (Tao) / The Suchness 

Recognizing nature as it is. The way things are…nature has no freedom. It has its own alchemy, its own characteristic. But if you can merge with nature itself, you will be the most free.

 

Concept: There is nothing to learn or to accumulate.

If nature has no freedom, there is nothing to add or take away, but only to realize and recognize. If you add or take anything away, you interrupt nature. So, there is nothing to learn. You must be with nature to understand it. Nature is “as such;” the way that it is; the way things are. So the concept is: there is nothing to learn, because it is already there.

 

So how are we going to learn if there is nothing to learn? We learn through recognizing and realizing what is what. You cannot think. You cannot imitate. You cannot train to accumulate. If you perform a movement over and over without the right mindset, what you train will turn into a subconscious reflex (second nature) and become a habit. So you must train total awareness, total consciousness of nature.