Is Fascism Left or Right

[Pilgrim]

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6 hours ago, 3bob said:

democracy is not nourished by  fascism,

You seem to have missed the entire thread on the constitution. America is not a putrid Democracy no matter how many can not get this through their head.

 

This is a Representative republic with some Democratic processes which I might add are the ones that do not work. 

 

As a Representative Republic which again is rule of law and not rule mob histrionics, Fascism is not as easy to evolve.

 

Italy the birth place of Fascism was a Monarchy and Fascism came from The Liberals:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kingdom_of_Italy_(1861–1946)#The_First_World_War_(1914–1918)

 

The liberal establishment, fearing a socialist revolution, started to endorse the small National Fascist Party, led by Benito Mussolini, whose violent reaction to the strikes (by means of the "Blackshirts" party militia) was often compared to the relatively moderate reactions of the government. After several years of struggle, in October 1922 the fascists attempted a coup (the "Marcia su Roma", i.e. March on Rome); the fascist forces were largely inferior, but the king ordered the army not to intervene, formed an alliance with Mussolini, and convinced the liberal party to endorse a fascist-led government. Over the next few years, Mussolini (who became known as "Il Duce", the leader) eliminated all political parties (including the liberals) and curtailed personal liberties under the pretext of preventing revolution. The nation state could only be formed by means of revolt.

 

Germany: 

Before and during most of WWI Germany was an imperial monarchy but also with a parliament, called the Reichstag. Although the Reichstag had some influence real power resided with the monarch, Kaiser Wilhelm II. When it became obvious the war was lost in 1918 the Kaiser was forced to abdicate under pressure by the German high command. He went into exile to avoid prosecution as a war criminal by the victorious allies.

The Social Democrats took power, signed the armistice, and formed the Weimar Republic in 1919. Because it was associated with defeat it was considered illegitimate by large numbers of German citizens. When the Nazis took power in 1933, through legal elections (although they often used illegal violence politically before then) ( Today they call it Doxing) Hitler effectively abolished the republic with the Reichstag fire decree and Enabling act of 1933. Germany became a one party dictatorship until its defeat in WWII.

 

History has proven it is the Liberals and the Democrats that devolve nations into Fascism. This is not opinion it is a fact. 

 

What happens is they screw things up so badly people will choose a dictatorship over the madness they create in order to hopefully restore some order.

 

Chaos is easy, Order is something that has to be worked for and if we are not vigilant and permit the Histrionics' of certain groups to prevail then we will have a nice Chaos just like the nice countries South of us so many are trying to escape from.  

 

In some ways people should be very, very afraid. Stupidity and bad leftist leadership has lead us to a place where we have a Trump as a President a radical outsider who is actually getting things done, there is no doubt in a Democracy,  or a Monarchy he could swiftly evolve into a Dictator or an Emperor. 

 

The thing the Left does not seem to get is they need to stop all the illegal behavior, they need to stop creating chaotic scenes and let things settle down other wise even this Representative Republic may well tip into a dictatorship if things keep getting pushed into so many fanciful nonsensical translations just because of a feeling or a thought or a need to vote for their horse in the race because of the way you feel, You feel Hot, You feel cold, You feel Hungry, you feel oh so many things... A feeling will never kill you. Voting based on a feeling however can destroy this nation. Better to vote with facts in place or do not vote at all.

 

 

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[ralis]

2 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

You seem to have missed the entire thread on the constitution. America is not a putrid Democracy no matter how many can not get this through their head.

 

This is a Representative republic with some Democratic processes which I might add are the ones that do not work. 

 

As a Representative Republic which again is rule of law and not rule mob histrionics, Fascism is not as easy to evolve.

 

Italy the birth place of Fascism was a Monarchy and Fascism came from The Liberals:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kingdom_of_Italy_(1861–1946)#The_First_World_War_(1914–1918)

 

The liberal establishment, fearing a socialist revolution, started to endorse the small National Fascist Party, led by Benito Mussolini, whose violent reaction to the strikes (by means of the "Blackshirts" party militia) was often compared to the relatively moderate reactions of the government. After several years of struggle, in October 1922 the fascists attempted a coup (the "Marcia su Roma", i.e. March on Rome); the fascist forces were largely inferior, but the king ordered the army not to intervene, formed an alliance with Mussolini, and convinced the liberal party to endorse a fascist-led government. Over the next few years, Mussolini (who became known as "Il Duce", the leader) eliminated all political parties (including the liberals) and curtailed personal liberties under the pretext of preventing revolution. The nation state could only be formed by means of revolt.

 

Germany: 

Before and during most of WWI Germany was an imperial monarchy but also with a parliament, called the Reichstag. Although the Reichstag had some influence real power resided with the monarch, Kaiser Wilhelm II. When it became obvious the war was lost in 1918 the Kaiser was forced to abdicate under pressure by the German high command. He went into exile to avoid prosecution as a war criminal by the victorious allies.

The Social Democrats took power, signed the armistice, and formed the Weimar Republic in 1919. Because it was associated with defeat it was considered illegitimate by large numbers of German citizens. When the Nazis took power in 1933, through legal elections (although they often used illegal violence politically before then) ( Today they call it Doxing) Hitler effectively abolished the republic with the Reichstag fire decree and Enabling act of 1933. Germany became a one party dictatorship until its defeat in WWII.

 

History has proven it is the Liberals and the Democrats that devolve nations into Fascism. This is not opinion it is a fact. 

 

What happens is they screw things up so badly people will choose a dictatorship over the madness they create in order to hopefully restore some order.

 

Chaos is easy, Order is something that has to be worked for and if we are not vigilant and permit the Histrionics' of certain groups to prevail then we will have a nice Chaos just like the nice countries South of us so many are trying to escape from.  

 

In some ways people should be very, very afraid. Stupidity and bad leftist leadership has lead us to a place where we have a Trump as a President a radical outsider who is actually getting things done, there is no doubt in a Democracy,  or a Monarchy he could swiftly evolve into a Dictator or an Emperor. 

 

The thing the Left does not seem to get is they need to stop all the illegal behavior, they need to stop creating chaotic scenes and let things settle down other wise even this Representative Republic may well tip into a dictatorship if things keep getting pushed into so many fanciful nonsensical translations just because of a feeling or a thought or a need to vote for their horse in the race because of the way you feel, You feel Hot, You feel cold, You feel Hungry, you feel oh so many things... A feeling will never kill you. Voting based on a feeling however can destroy this nation. Better to vote with facts in place or do not vote at all.

 

The bold above is a complete fabrication and does not rely on historical fact! Fascism is a right wing idealogical movement which is easily proven if one has even a modicum of intellectual curiosity. Revisionist interpretations seem to run amok these days which are for the most part the work of Jonah Goldberg. I read his book on fascism and found it to be bereft of historical facts.

 

 

 

If you are in the least bit curious I recommend the following;

 

https://www.amazon.com/Hitler-1889-1936-Hubris-ebook/dp/B01AVKWG5K/ref=sr_1_3?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1542299279&sr=1-3&keywords=Ian+Kershaw

 

Dr. Timothy Snyder "On Tryanny"

 

Hannah Arendt "The Origins of Totalitarianism" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Q9TLJW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

3 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

The bold above is a complete fabrication and does not rely on historical fact! Fascism is a right wing idealogical movement which is easily proven if one has even a modicum of intellectual curiosity. Revisionist interpretations seem to run amok these days which are for the most part the work of Jonah Goldberg. I read his book on fascism and found it to be bereft of historical facts.

 

 

 

If you are in the least bit curious I recommend the following;

 

https://www.amazon.com/Hitler-1889-1936-Hubris-ebook/dp/B01AVKWG5K/ref=sr_1_3?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1542299279&sr=1-3&keywords=Ian+Kershaw

 

Dr. Timothy Snyder "On Tryanny"

 

Hannah Arendt "The Origins of Totalitarianism" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Q9TLJW/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

 

 

 

Good Morning Ralis, Please do re-read what was written. 

[ralis]

10 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Good Morning Ralis, Please do re-read what was written. 

 

Don't need to read again. The books and audio I linked to are well worth the time to read and listen to. I am just setting the record straight here.

Edited November 15, 2018 by ralis

[ilumairen]

22 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

The bold above is a complete fabrication and does not rely on historical fact! Fascism is a right wing idealogical movement which is easily proven if one has even a modicum of intellectual curiosity. Revisionist interpretations seem to run amok these days which are for the most part the work of Jonah Goldberg. I read his book on fascism and found it to be bereft of historical facts.

 

https://www.history.com/news/how-the-nazis-were-inspired-by-jim-crow

 

 

[Pilgrim]

15 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Don't need to read again. The books and audio I linked to are well worth the time to read and listen to. I am just setting the record straight here.

I guess not since you are bound and determined to miss the point.

 

I can't help it if you do not like the facts but unlike yourself I actually know people from this era and have known even older people from both of these countries and this is how it went down according to them as well. I even personally know a former Nazi Soldier who yet lives and he will be the first to tell you Hitler was a left wing radical criminal.

 

When I have time I will take a look at this book and try to understand why you think it is authoritarian over the people who actually lived these years in these countries prior to migrating to the U.S.

[ralis]

4 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

https://www.history.com/news/how-the-nazis-were-inspired-by-jim-crow

 

 

 

As a racist policy the Nazi's used Jim Crow laws. This is old news for anyone who has studied this.

[Pilgrim]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

As a racist policy the Nazi's used Jim Crow laws. This is old news for anyone who has studied this.

Some might just call it history.

[ralis]

18 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

I guess not since you are bound and determined to miss the point.

 

I can't help it if you do not like the facts but unlike yourself I actually know people from this era and have known even older people from both of these countries and this is how it went down according to them as well. I even personally know a former Nazi Soldier who yet lives and he will be the first to tell you Hitler was a left wing radical criminal.

 

When I have time I will take a look at this book and try to understand why you think it is authoritarian over the people who actually lived these years in these countries prior to migrating to the U.S.

 

The facts are there in the links I posted and anyone who seeks to revise such is in error! Knowing a few persons from that era does not make for a factual argument which is a fallacy of false analogy.

Edited November 15, 2018 by ralis

[Pilgrim]

Just now, ralis said:

 

The facts are there in the links I posted and anyone who seeks to revise such is in error! Knowing a few person for that era does not make for a factual argument.

Your facts are in the links you posted. This much I am certain of,  like I said will take a look when time permits until then lets just say I am skeptical.

 

Unlike books and histories written by the victor, or some politically minded slant the people who lived it are the only true authority. They have experiential authority. I grew up around survivors of the Gas Chambers they were there they alone really know what happened.

 

The amount of people one has known does not detract from the validity of the reality they experienced nor their knowledge of the times in which they lived,  which I assure you mattered far more to them than to either you or I.  These people researched their lives to try to understand what happened. Lets not sell them short just to be argumentative. 

[ilumairen]

7 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

As a racist policy the Nazi's used Jim Crow laws. This is old news for anyone who has studied this.

 

From the article I linked:

 

Quote

 

In particular, Nazis admired the Jim Crow-era laws that discriminated against black Americans and segregated them from white Americans, and they debated whether to introduce similar segregation in Germany.

 

Yet they ultimately decided that it wouldn’t go far enough.

 

“One of the most striking Nazi views was that Jim Crow was a suitable racist program in the United States because American blacks were already oppressed and poor,” he says. “But then in Germany, by contrast, where the Jews (as the Nazis imagined it) were rich and powerful, it was necessary to take more severe measures.”

 

Because of this, Nazis were more interested in how the U.S. had designated Native Americans, Filipinos and other groups as non-citizens even though they lived in the U.S. or its territories. These models influenced the citizenship portion of the Nuremberg Laws, which stripped Jewish Germans of their citizenship and classified them as “nationals.”

 

 

The article actually states that while Jim Crow was found by the Nazi's to be suitable in the U.S. due to the oppression and poverty of blacks, more extreme measures were needed in Germany owing to the wealth and prosperity of the Jewish people. At which point they turned to how Native Americans and others were classified as non - citizens.

 

 Aquisition and redistribution of wealth?

 

And how did the Nazi's view the idea of freedom of speech?

 

[ralis]

1 minute ago, Pilgrim said:

Your facts are in the links you posted. This much I am certain of,  like I said will take a look when time permits until then lets just say I am skeptical.

 

Unlike books and histories written by the victor, or some politically minded slant the people who lived it are the only true authority. They have experiential authority. I grew up around survivors of the Gas Chambers they were there they alone really know what happened.

 

The amount of people one has known does not detract from the validity of the reality they experienced nor their knowledge of the times in which they lived,  which I assure you mattered far more to them than to either you or I.  These people researched their lives to try to understand what happened. Lets not sell them short just to be argumentative. 

 

I have a very good friend who was a translator at the Nuremberg Tribunals as well as an uncle that was one of the first soldiers to see the concentration camps. To rely on knowing these two persons does not give me license to posit an argument such as yours. 

 

The fallacious argument as to history being written by the conquers in this instance is way off the mark. Why? The facts are all in the documents that were captured by the allies which  historians used to compile writings regarding that point in time.

 

If you continue to use worn out fallacious arguments as a basis for your narrative, then any discussion is pointless.

 

 

[ilumairen]

I still find this soo incredibly repugnant..

 

But could someone lay out the ideals of the Nazi party, and how these ideals align with either the left or right from their perspective?

 

To me, at the moment, it seems decidedly left...

[ralis]

Joseph Goebbels speeches which are quite revealing as to the ideological tenets of fascism and propaganda.

 

https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/goebmain.htm

[Aetherous]

From the little I've read, they used socialism to convince the public, and then implemented totalitarianism.

[ralis]

3 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

I still find this soo incredibly repugnant..

 

But could someone lay out the ideals of the Nazi party, and how these ideals align with either the left or right from their perspective?

 

To me, at the moment, it seems decidedly left...

 

Read and listen to what I posted. FYI, Hitler hated the communists/leftists in which he associated the Jews with. If you read Kershaw that will be clear. I believe it is on page 44 of the book referenced. Hint ( Munich).

[ilumairen]

A video I found interesting:

 

 

Any thoughts?

[Stosh]

5 minutes ago, ralis said:

Joseph Goebbels speeches which are quite revealing as to the ideological tenets of fascism and propaganda.

 

https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/goebmain.htm

Only if one gives a shit what he had to say. 

[ilumairen]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

Read and listen to what I posted. FYI, Hitler hated the communists/leftists in which he associated the Jews with. If you read Kershaw that will be clear. I believe it is on page 44 of the book referenced. Hint ( Munich).

 

But wouldn't the communists have been part of a different state, and not the state he was promoting?

 

I'll look into Kershaw, and I'll be back to this thread later - for now work. 

 

Thanks for the response. 

[Pilgrim]

Hah! Now we have a good conversation going!  

[ralis]

Just now, Aetherous said:

From the little I've read, they used socialism to convince the public, and then implemented totalitarianism.

 

Hitler was not a fan of socialism, but one of his associates was. That is discussed in "Rise and Fall" which I posted earlier. 

 

Without the assistance of German and other corporations at the time, Hitler would not have succeeded. Corporate power fused with state power = fascism, at it's most simplistic.

[Pilgrim]

20 minutes ago, ralis said:

have a very good friend who was a translator at the Nuremberg Tribunals as well as an uncle that was one of the first soldiers to see the concentration camps. To rely on knowing these two persons does not give me license to posit an argument such as yours. 

Oh yes it does,  I would love to here what these people have to share please do tell us.

[ralis]

11 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

A video I found interesting:

 

 

Any thoughts?

 

He is wrong and is promoting his own revisionist theories. Historians are in disagreement. His credibility is low given that he bases much of his work on conspiracy theories.

Edited November 15, 2018 by ralis

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Oh yes it does,  I would love to here what these people have to share please do tell us.

 

Why not compare and contrast the actual factual history of the time. To cherry pick to suit your own narrative leads nowhere, but down the road of fallacious arguments.

[ralis]

9 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Only if one gives a shit what he had to say. 

 

Really? Tell that to the millions that were slaughtered during the war!