Is Fascism Left or Right

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

Why not explain a little more about whats so muddy....

 

I'd have to write an essay.  But I can offer the thought that the confusion comes from the left/right axis in the first place and also the fact that the fascists were a radical movement in 20 Cent. Europe in response to the depression and so on.  While conservatives want to hold to the traditional hierarchical social structure (to conserve) the fascist want to replace it with subservience to the state and party.  They opposed the Marxists who were internationalists and were nationalists (sometimes ethno-nationalists) and were able to get to power by gaining support from the centrists (conservatives and liberals) because they opposed the left.  This is really why they are placed on the right - but it is misleading to see this as a spectrum as they may end up having little in common with the conservatives.  

 

[Aetherous]

3 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

It is not racist to point out what is. 

 

Talking statistics is one thing...making claims based off of them where it paints the "race" (actually, skin tone) as worse than others is where it crosses the line, in my opinion. You could go back and reread your words, and tell me which one it was.

Anyway, this race stuff is all a side point and I'm kind of taking the thread off topic with it, so I'll stop. I don't care all that much if it's what you believe; just pointing out the truth in case you want to consider it. It's pretty common for white people to be denigrated (as most feel like if it's a majority group, or one that has had more power compared to others, then it's okay to bring them down a notch), so I think everyone is quite used to it. That doesn't make it less racist in any way...it just makes it tolerated racism.

[Pilgrim]

7 hours ago, windwalker said:

As I said reading what you posted I feel it would be more apt to say Western cultures Western values, that those in the silent majority hold regardless of ethnicity.

Agreed it would have been wise as clearly the silent majority does comprise more than just the whites. 

 

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I must regretfully agree with Ralis this time.  Fascism is extreme Right mentality.

 

Just to be clear I did not create the thread this was moved from another and named Is Fascism Left or Right by staff. I am ok with this but it was not my point.

 

I never said Fascism was Left. I was pointing out that it  is current leftist behavior that is similar to leftist and Democratic behavior that has lead to Fascism in the past. That was the main point. 

 

Yes I did repeat what I was told to me by a former member of lower German Nobility conscripted and forced to become a Nazi soldier. He and the old Germans as he calls them ( Yes the still live in their 90's and meet regularly )  viewed Hitler as a left wing liberal radical and a criminal. They also acknowledge that people here view him as a Right Wing and state emphatically from their point of view that the people here are wrong.  They also laugh when people compare Trump to Hitler and say My God they have no idea! None at all what it was like! 

 

This is the opinion of someone who was there and is still here today.

 

My opinion is this: Hitler used Fascism as a vehicle to gain power. He was in fact a Monster, a Mass Murderer, and used whatever means people would follow to carry out an Agenda that was unparalleled in horror. He murdered so many people that they had to scoop up the corpses with Bulldozers to bury them in huge pits. Wholesale industrialized murder.

 

I learned about this from the survivors, I lived in a Jewish community and attended school with Jewish people, my school teachers were Jewish and they educated us to the horrors,  they showed us movies in school of what those poor people endured and how they were killed and how they were disposed of. For me it was horrible to behold as I was with the descendants of these people and the emotional trauma they experienced gaining this education I experienced as well. When the lights came on there was a stunned silence.

 

I felt violated, my world view was drastically horrified.

 

What happened there has allot of facets and redistribution of the wealth played a key part in it.

 

Hitler offered security, he gave a vision for people to follow, he made them feel proud to be German, he offered to make things better he appealed to fear and so many tribal based human instincts and played a tune others followed. In time there was no choice either follow or die.

 

We see very similar behavior playing out today. It is happening on the Right and it is happening on the Left. The middle is getting lost and division is happening. Untied we stand and divided we fall.

 

This is very dangerous and I am not certain even a Representative Republic will survive this. Other political systems have folded to Fascism in the past.

 

All people should be very careful of Charismatic speakers and those appealing to the Majority. 

 

Obama appealed to the minorities and the mistreated he got them riled up. The problem with getting people on the equality band wagon is once that rock gets rolling down hill they want to be more equal than others. 

 

Trump is appealing to the silent majority that are put off by Obama's legacy.

 

Both in my opinion are equally guilty of dividing this nation. 

 

Both have contributed towards the very factors that lead to Fascism and in these modern times allot of the heavy behavior like Doxing being promoted by a United States Leftist Senator is scary. Allot of the way Trump acts is scary.

 

Fascism tends to end in a dictatorship where both liberal and conservative parties are removed. Beyond the Potus we really need to look at the senate these people are responsible for allot of what is going on and presidents tend to be the clown on stage and the fall guy for those in the background who have been there for decades. The problem with the senate is if you remove it then you loose one of the major branches of government and with it the Representative Republic. 

 

The senate not doing it's job is by defacto removing a major branch of Government and utilizing a weaker branch the Judicial branch to do things it was never intended to and that is weakening the Representative Republic which is only facilitating a slide into Fascism.

 

It is time we the people stand up and hold the long term career politicians accountable for the division they are creating and have been for a very long time now. Lets take our eyes off the front man on the stage no matter who it might be and take a keen look at the long term players. There is where the real problem is. This is where mandatory term limits need imposed.

 

Finally it has been brought to my attention that all this talk of Fascism and WW2 and the horrors therein are disturbing to certain people,  deeply upsetting in fact so I am quitting this topic and have nothing further to add. 

[Aetherous]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

I think the political landscape is quite confusing these days - and probably always was.  Certain words like Liberal have different means in Europe compared to America (where it means Left).

 

Even in America, liberal means completely different things all the way from right to left. The US is a "liberal democracy", which is what the American right seeks to "conserve". There are "classical liberals", which is how many on the right think, or define themselves.

 

The original use of the term "right wing" in France would be the opposite of what the American right wants, as they are strongly opposed to monarchism and aren't authoritarian.

[Lost in Translation]

First article: Fascism resembles Marxism. Okay... that's not super helpful.

 

Quote

Fascism requires some basic allegiances, such as to the nation, to national grandeur, and to a master race or group. The core principle — what Paxton defined as fascism's only definition of morality — is to make the nation stronger, more powerful, larger and more successful. Since fascists see national strength as the only thing that makes a nation "good," fascists will use any means necessary to achieve that goal. 

 

As a result, fascists aim to use the country's assets to increase the country's strength. This leads to a nationalization of assets, Montague said, and in this, fascism resembles Marxism. 

 

https://www.livescience.com/57622-fascism.html

 

Second article: Fascism is far-right. Since this is Wikipedia I'll take what it says with "pinch of salt."

 

Quote

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism,[1][2][3][4] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy,[5] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[6] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I before it spread to other European countries.[6] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[6][7][8][9][10][11]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

 

Third article: Fascism is not what you belief as much as how you implement your beliefs. Now we're getting somewhere!

 

Quote

People are always asking, “Is such-and-such politician really a fascist?” Which is really just another way of asking if this person has a particular set of beliefs or an ideology, but again, I don’t really think of a fascist as someone who holds a set of beliefs. They’re using a certain technique to acquire and retain power.

 

https://www.vox.com/2018/9/19/17847110/how-fascism-works-donald-trump-jason-stanley

 

Fourth article: This is the dictionary definition. There's no mention of left-right but it does describe characteristics of fascism, including implementation tactics. This agrees with the third article in description.

 

Quote

fascism

 noun

fas·cism | \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-  \

Definition of fascism 

 

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

 

2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

 

Fifth article: Fascists are neither left nor right but a combination of whatever achieves power

 

Quote

You’ll often hear Left-wing people saying that fascism was a Right-wing movement because it stressed race or national identity. But some Right-wing thinkers insist it was a Left-wing movement because it rejected class elitism and put controls on the economy. The truth is that fascists usually defined themselves as being neither Left nor Right but a combination of whatever policies helped to win power and "rejuvenate" the nation.

 

 

 

I have no desire to research this all day but it does seem clear that "fascism" describes a set of objectives and tactics to achieve them. By this measure fascism is neither left nor right, but rather both left and right, depending upon who wants power.

 

So the next question one must ask is who wants power?

[Michael Sternbach]

This topic only illustrates that the  extremes always touch one another.

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

I'd have to write an essay.  But I can offer the thought that the confusion comes from the left/right axis in the first place and also the fact that the fascists were a radical movement in 20 Cent. Europe in response to the depression and so on.  While conservatives want to hold to the traditional hierarchical social structure (to conserve) the fascist want to replace it with subservience to the state and party.  They opposed the Marxists who were internationalists and were nationalists (sometimes ethno-nationalists) and were able to get to power by gaining support from the centrists (conservatives and liberals) because they opposed the left.  This is really why they are placed on the right - but it is misleading to see this as a spectrum as they may end up having little in common with the conservatives.  

 

 

The extremists don't seem to be on spectral ends to me, but in the same general arc area of a circle... 

 

[Apech]

Just now, ilumairen said:

 

The extremists don't seem to be on spectral ends to me, but in the same general arc area of a circle... 

 

 

It's probably time we got rid of the left/right spectrum anyway.

[Apech]

Just because different movements display similar behaviour - group think, intolerance, love of the state as a solution and so on does not mean they are ideologically aligned.  If they gained power (God forbid) the results would differ.

 

 

 

[dawei]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

It's probably time we got rid of the left/right spectrum anyway.

 

So how to replace it ?  The circle still has opposite sides.  Your input has been really interesting to read.

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

So how to replace it ?  The circle still has opposite sides.  Your input has been really interesting to read.

 

 

There's something called political compass which is not too bad.  That might not be the right name - it's online and you can answer questions to see where you fit.

 

There's a problem with even this though.

 

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

Edited November 16, 2018 by Apech

[dawei]

4 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

Talking statistics is one thing...making claims based off of them where it paints the "race" (actually, skin tone) as worse than others is where it crosses the line, in my opinion. You could go back and reread your words, and tell me which one it was.

Anyway, this race stuff is all a side point and I'm kind of taking the thread off topic with it, so I'll stop. I don't care all that much if it's what you believe; just pointing out the truth in case you want to consider it. It's pretty common for white people to be denigrated (as most feel like if it's a majority group, or one that has had more power compared to others, then it's okay to bring them down a notch), so I think everyone is quite used to it. That doesn't make it less racist in any way...it just makes it tolerated racism.

 

I went back to re-read myself.  I think in today's world, it is difficult to mention a color and not have someone say it is racist.   I think in the past, you could mention it as an opinion or citing a fact but today, if you mention color, you are suddenly invoking racism on some level.  I completely disagree with the latter idea as it suppresses some form of free speech but that is the trend.

 

I personally don't think Pilgrim crossed the line but one particular line (I won't cite) was close, but we have to try and see the point being made without citing racism so fast.  

 

I will say that pushing back like you did is equally valid; it gives us an understanding of how you feel the expression... which is to say, both sides were a valid expression , IMO. 

 

Thanks for being metered in your responses given your feeling....  a TDB friend

 

 

 

 

[dawei]

16 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

There's something called political compass which is not too bad.  That might not be the right name - it's online and you can answer questions to see where you fit.

 

There's a problem with even this though.

 

Ok, did this one:

 

https://www.politicalcompass.org

 

I am economic and social just barely, slightly left of center.  Vertical of Authoritarian vs Libertarian I am dead central...   So I have previously said I am neutral... who would of guessed this result 

 

They ask some stupid questions and no neutral answers allowed...  So I see a problem with it

 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Ok, did this one:

 

https://www.politicalcompass.org

 

I am economic and social just barely, slightly left of center.  Vertical of Authoritarian vs Libertarian I am dead central...   So I have previously said I am neutral... who would of guessed this result 

 

They ask some stupid questions and no neutral answers allowed...  So I see a problem with it

 

 

This is me!  Where's Chang? 

[rideforever]

Some currents :

Individual Actualization

Donald Trump (for instance) having actualized himself through hard work over many years respects hard work and the result of it.  Those politicians who have not cannot respect or understand it.

 

Collective and Personal Consciousness

Human monkeys live as part of a tribe, checking in to refresh what they are supposed to be thinking today, hating today, and valuing today ... through the culture.   The tribe protects itself.   
Other people are leaving the tribe and find it sickening and suicidal, they wish to be themselves individually.

 

The False Mind And Control

Human monkeys have evolved an embryonic consciousness higher than animals ; because it is embryonic it gets some things right but in the end everything goes wrong.  Like a child.   It can bomb the middle east and congratulate itself, but it cannot fix the middle east.  It is essentially false, or in a state of primitive learning.
It's identity fluctuates greatly as it is not solid enough to hold it's own, and not strong enough to prevent the ingress of the collective mind of society, so it often resorts to trying desperately to inflict forceful control on others as a way to stabilise it's feelings of security and it's identity.

 

Living Traditions

Gore Vidal was one of the last in the line of a living tradition that had brought the US something very valuable, they held a light within themselves.   Historically perhaps some Royal lines also did.
But these things wax and wane, and you can easily be left with an intellectual tradition who's members are complete insincere idiots, or royal families who's members are likewise non-entities.

 

So, political parties are at any one time a cross-section of specific currents such as these, in specific moments of waxing and waning.

[dawei]

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

This is me!  Where's Chang? 

 

but you sound so right on issues... seems you are left    and reaching for the bottom 

[Apech]

30 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

but you sound so right on issues... seems you are left    and reaching for the bottom 

 

 

That's me  - the left behind.

[Apech]

The problem with this kind of assessment is that it is issue based.  Or policy area based.  If you are deciding who to vote for, say for Congress or Senate then it is reasonable to check their policy stance.  For instance:

 

Immigration.

Gay marriage.

Legal cannabis.

Abortion.

Big/small government.

 

.. and so on - to give a reasonable prediction as to how they might vote on legislation.

 

What it misses is ideological outlook.  For instance someone can favour gay marriage because they consider gay people an oppressed minority who need to struggle to get equal rights - or alternatively someone may favour gay marriage because as a right wing libertarian they want to eliminate government control of individual freedom.  So two completely different views which end up with the same choice.  Similarly a left wing person who is also a Catholic might be pro-life etc.

 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Ok, did this one:

 

https://www.politicalcompass.org

 

I am economic and social just barely, slightly left of center.  Vertical of Authoritarian vs Libertarian I am dead central...   So I have previously said I am neutral... who would of guessed this result 

 

They ask some stupid questions and no neutral answers allowed...  So I see a problem with it

 

Well that was fun. Here is where I landed who woulda thunk it?

 

 

Your Political Compass

Economic Left/Right: -5.5 
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.69

Edited November 16, 2018 by Pilgrim

[Aetherous]

I was basically in the same spot. I think I'm pretty socially liberal, so I don't have a problem with being left...but the test didn't seem all that accurate.

[dawei]

funny that those of us who support Trump's policies are seeming leftist...   we are the deplorable ones after all.... and those on the far left want to attack us for being on the left ?   yep deplorable in the ends.   So deplorable.... 

[Pilgrim]

16 minutes ago, dawei said:

funny that those of us who support Trump's policies are seeming leftist...   we are the deplorable ones after all.... and those on the far left want to attack us for being on the left ?   yep deplorable in the ends.   So deplorable.... 

OMG Still Laughing!!!  I would love to see how our leftist identifying friends score, this is fun.

[Aetherous]

13 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

OMG Still Laughing!!!  I would love to see how our leftist identifying friends score, this is fun.

 

Probably far right extreme authoritarian. 

[Pilgrim]

Just now, Aetherous said:

 

Probably far right extreme authoritarian. 

Now that would indeed be funny.

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

funny that those of us who support Trump's policies are seeming leftist...   we are the deplorable ones after all.... and those on the far left want to attack us for being on the left ?   yep deplorable in the ends.   So deplorable.... 

 

I was zero, dead center on the left/right scale, and ever so slightly libertarian with a -1.8