How to understand the Daodejing and similar taoist works?

[KuroShiro]

19 hours ago, dwai said:

I was reading my first teacher's notes - his records of what his master taught him over several years (he maintained it like a diary), which he gave to my taiji brother and myself. He writes in his notes from 2000 --

This points directly to non-duality and the context in which works like DDJ should be studied and understood. Feel free to discuss  

 

 

 

Thank you very much dwai for this thread and everyone for their posts.

I'm only a beginner student but would love to discuss this with you.

 

Is Waysun Liao your Grandmaster? I have 2 of his books (loved them both) but I don't know what is his School/Tradition. Doesn't Master Liao explain the Dao De Jing in his book Nine Nights with the Taoist Master? (haven't read it yet - wishlist)

 

 

18 hours ago, wandelaar said:

But maybe the teacher followed an esoteric interpretation where the political chapters are reinterpreted as referring to internal alchemical processes?

 

14 hours ago, Nintendao said:

That was my first impression, that it was meant as a hint, to make you think "what the heck could this chapter be about, then?"  As in the ones Jeff pointed out, it's clearly sounding like there are others involved. The key, I've heard, is that the nation is meant as one's own body, with the population and everything else being the different agencies interacting inside.

 

13 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

That is an interesting take of the TTC. I've heard this before so there seems to be merit to it. Whether that was Lao Tsu's original intention... we'll never know.

 

 

Nei Jing Su Wen, Chapter 8.

Edited November 20, 2018 by KuroShiro

[KuroShiro]

16 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

This seems to me that your teacher is telling you to develop a personal understanding of Tao instead of taking his or anyone else's. TTC and other works are guideposts pointing to the way, they are not the way itself.

 

I think there is no sense in trying to intellectually understand the Dao De Jing. First you have to look within, truly care about yourself.

One has to walk The Path. The Dao De Jing seems to be the understanding/sharing of a Master who has walked It.

[Nintendao]

26 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

Nei Jing Su Wen, Chapter 8.

So that is where the idea came from, of making a metaphor for the organs/channels being different government officials and faculties. For example it's explicitly stated there that "The heart is the official functioning as ruler", and "The lung is the official functioning as chancellor and mentor," and so on. Within this context when it later says "if the ruler is enlightened, his subjects are in peace," it's easy for me to then consider whether my organs are getting enough oxygen.

( http://www.biblio.nhat-nam.ru/Huang_Di_Nei_Jing_Su_Wen-Unschuld-Tessenow-1-2.pdf )

 

I can see how that kind of thinking would also have then been applied to the poetry of Lao Tzu.

[rene]

51 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

I think there is no sense in trying to intellectually understand the Dao De Jing. First you have to look within, truly care about yourself.

One has to walk The Path. The Dao De Jing seems to be the understanding/sharing of a Master who has walked It.

Agree, fully. (-:

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

Nei Jing Su Wen, Chapter 8.

 

Interesting! Do you happen to know when chapter 8 was first written?

[dwai]

2 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Thank you very much dwai for this thread and everyone for their posts.

I'm only a beginner student but would love to discuss this with you.

 

Is Waysun Liao your Grandmaster? I have 2 of his books (loved them both) but I don't know what is his School/Tradition. Doesn't Master Liao explain the Dao De Jing in his book Nine Nights with the Taoist Master? (haven't read it yet - wishlist)

 

Yes that is correct. I'd strongly recommend reading "Nine Nights...". The way he explains the DDJ in it, is what made it real for me.

2 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

 

 

 

Nei Jing Su Wen, Chapter 8.

Thanks for the reference.

[dwai]

More on the topic of "being One with everything"...the little "i" must go. 

 

Quote

Master lectured while we meditated. For those of you who want to work
more on the Spiritual level, move the energy up from the Dan Tien to the third eye,(
the area between the eyebrows), concentrate on this piece of skin, (see diagram at left).
Make sure that you do a lot of practice first so that you have a good Chi flow. Then,
bring the Chi up from the Dan Tien to this area, (see diagram at right), and
meditate. You probably do not see anything yet, but in the higher levels you
may see visions. This is not like imagining something in your mind, that
is still the mental level. Each time you try you may want to write down what you experience.
Do not try and do too much of this, just every now and then try and do it for a while. You

want to clear the mind and relax the body. You want to have feelings of love, beauty and kind-
ness, feeling this with the whole body, so that you cease to exist. Relax into that natural state

where you cease to exist and you are part of all that is around you. This is very difficult. When
you are finished, move the energy back down to the Dan Tien and focus the energy here to
finish.

 

More...

Quote

Your goal is to reach that Spiritual Level, like the bottle
of water poured into the ocean. You, (Teh) become one with the energy, (Tao). The energy
moves you then and you just follow.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by dwai

[rideforever]

Zou Yan is commonly associated with Daoism and the origins of Chinese alchemy, going back to the (ca. 100 AD) Book of Han that calls him a fangshi (方士 [literally "technique master"] "alchemist; magician; exorcist; diviner"). Holmes Welch proposes the fangshi were among those whom Sima Qian described as "unable to practice" Zou Yan's arts, and says while Zou "gradually acquired alchemistical stature, he himself knew nothing of the art. It was probably developed by those of his followers who became interested in physical experimentation with the Five Elements." 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zou_Yan

 

Attached is Taoism The Parting of the Way, essay by Holmes Welch.

Taoism-The-Parting-of-the-Way-Inaction-pp-18-23-Welch.pdf

[KuroShiro]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

 

Interesting! Do you happen to know when chapter 8 was first written?

 

Of course not.

It's irrelevant when it was first written.

[wandelaar]

31 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

It's irrelevant when it was first written.

 

Not to me!  I would like to know whether it was written before, after or concurrently to the Tao Te Ching. If it was written before or even concurrently to the Tao Te Ching then the idea that Lao tzu (or those who wrote in his name) meant the ostensibly political parts of the Tao Te Ching as actually referring to internal alchemical processes becomes just a little bit less unlikely.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by wandelaar

[Nintendao]

Seems most accounts place the Huang Di Nei Jing in the Han dynasty, few centuries after the Tao Te Ching (even though it claims to be an account of adventures made by the Yellow Emperor from 2600 BC .) There's a lot of overlap in the estimates though, so it's hard to pinpoint a particular chapter especially. Overall, my purely guessing is that the more "universal" philosophy of Lao Tzu was later adopted by medical scholars and tweaked for incorporation into their own work.

[Taoist Texts]

On 11/20/2018 at 1:53 AM, dwai said:

The grandmaster of my lineage says that the political parts of DDJ are just bolt-ons and somewhat irrelevant. DDJ is primarily a text of internal alchemy. 

This one is interesting.  Which passage in DDJ is most obviously alchemical, for example?

[rideforever]

One strange fact about this world is that the spiritual people are normally those who are too stupid to get jobs.   So they bum around and drift into the spiritual place, and then they start "teaching".   It is "teaching" rather than teaching because being stupid they can't really explain anything, and don't really know what happened.   Often they just start repeating the past scriptures, in the hope that they might arrive at something, or recreate a spiritual scene they have seen somebody else do.   But, they often have got no idea really how or what they are teaching.
Another thing is that people can become extremely desperate in their journeys and just take themselves to many teachers and techniques and desperately try one thing or another, and then one day poof ... it happens.   Which is fine, but it does not lead to being able to teach anything.   
What are you going to teach exactly ?   
Desperately running right and left and trying every goddam thing ?
Or will you teach sitting under a tree in the hopes of grace ?
Errr .....
Not really ideal planet to live on.
And if you listen very carefully to spiritual teachers, they will start will the mystical words and make the whole scene, and somewhere in the middle of their speil they will actually try to think.   And if you listen carefully you will notice that their thinking is rubbish.   And it's not something they do very much because mostly it's just the reading of ancient words and creating that spiritual theatre..

And then there is the whole thing about ... it can't be taught .... or please students I can't teach you, you have to do it  Or something the teacher stares in your eyes really hard in the hope that somethings gonna happen.
Or maybe if you hang around with me long enough ... then by osmosis you will get it.

Ridiculous.
Ridiculous from top to bottom is this planet.
But ... people might be sincere in wanting to pass it on, but their intelligence is not so good.
No wonder anyone with half a brain and a job are running fast in the opposite direction.

Problem is ... that there is a spiritual reality, and only rare teachers actually know what to do.
One conclusion that is at least a little logical is to retrace the steps of the teacher ... but few students want to do that.  How many people wish to walk in the footsteps of Buddha and leave everyone and so on, and study hard and so on ?   Well maybe some do.
With the TTC, notice he wrote it one the way out of the city .... er ... but isn't it about living in harmony with everything ... how can you live in harmony if you are leaving ???

All this head scratching about how to understand the TTC ... people love this game, the "big" question.   
Why don't you just read it ?
Oh it's alchemy !!!
Is it really.
Oh no there is some deeeeeep thing in there, it's so deeeep man.
Ok.

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by rideforever

[Wu Ming Jen]

Practice is Tao and Virtue.  They hope that by practicing virtue they will be able to break through the Tao, when they break through the Tao they will become immortal. 

 

Because they are so dedicated and devoted, they gain access to stillness.  Stillness presents itself to the priests.  They don’t need to fight for it, they don’t need to look for it.  If we still have something to worry about and things that we want in the material life, then we have not made up our minds to get out of this world yet.  And so it is difficult to find the stillness. 

 

Stillness is about personal behavior, daily behavior, every day’s virtue in life is to gain access to stillness.  The easiest way to have stillness present itself is through virtue.  No matter how great the technique, if we are still attached to the material life we will not gain access to stillness. 

 

Quality of stillness is equal to the quality of virtue.  The higher the level, the more compassionate we can be toward ourselves.  There are still emotions and stuff but there is no attachment to the emotions, they don’t go in.  The lotus grows in the mud and presents the most beauty.

 

If reading the Tao Te Ching makes you a better person, gives you peace or a sense of stillness or just makes you feel better about the world we live in, showing a better way to live in it, then you are reading correctly.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Wu Ming Jen

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

This one is interesting.  Which passage in DDJ is most obviously alchemical, for example?

If you read the book “Nine nights with the Daoist master”, master Liao breaks it down for us quite nicely. But by alchemy I don’t mean methods per se. It’s a lineage transmission which is always available for those who are ready.

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

This one is interesting.  Which passage in DDJ is most obviously alchemical, for example?

 

I would agree with that.

 

Dwai - What chapters in the DDJ does your master consider as irrelevant?

[Lost in Translation]

Let's imagine I wrote this:

 

Quote

First you lift the car up so you can get proper access to its chassis. Then you find the oil pan. Wipe it down with a cloth and inspect for leaks. Next gently twist the plug. Pop it out when it gets loose. Oil will immediately begin to flow. Be careful to not get any on your hands or clothes. Let the pan drain fully before replacing the plug. Remove and replace the oil filter. Dispose of used oil and oil filters in proper recyclable containers. Lower the car.

 

Now open the hood. Find the oil intake and gently remove the cap. Wipe down the measuring stick and set aside. Using a funnel, carefully apply new oil. Refer to owner's manual for the exact quantity. Periodically reexamine oil levels with measuring stick. Stop at the recommended level.

 

Start engine and let idle for several minutes while inspecting for possible leaks. You have now successfully changed your vehicles oil. See owners manual for recommended scheduled maintenance cycle.

 

A person who wants to change the oil in their vehicle may find this information useful. Of course it's also possible that this is a coded message teaching teenagers how to get laid. I guess it's all a matter of your point of view...

[KuroShiro]

On 11/19/2018 at 8:24 PM, dwai said:

In a talk I had with Master after class he mentioned that to understand the Tao Teh Ching, and
other such works, it is important to imagine that you are the only person on earth. Can you be right or
wrong then? Is there good or bad?

 

Is this a trick question?

I'd say yes you can be right or wrong, there is good or bad.

 

 

On 11/19/2018 at 11:12 PM, Jeff said:

That being said, if there is only one person on the planet, then to me there would be no right or wrong, or good and bad.  Since you are the only person, everything would simply be self referenced, and just your view on things.

 

What if that person would go on a rampage and cut and burn all the trees? Would that not fall under right/wrong or good/bad? Perhaps if one starts by looking within it is as being the only person on Earth.

It seems that as long one is in the realm of Yin and Yang, operating in the physical world then these dualities are important and not to be discarded, even if one "reaches" Tai Ji.

All True Traditions seem to emphasize the importance of strong moral values, good character.

 

 

On 11/19/2018 at 11:12 PM, Jeff said:

Since there is just you, there would not even be a language to have such words or concepts in the first place.

 

 

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

...

 

What if that person would go on a rampage and cut and burn all the trees? Would that not fall under right/wrong or good/bad? Perhaps if one starts by looking within it is as being the only person on Earth.

It seems that as long one is in the realm of Yin and Yang, operating in the physical world then these dualities are important and not to be discarded, even if one "reaches" Tai Ji.

All True Traditions seem to emphasize the importance of strong moral values, good character.

...

 

Good/Bad or right/wrong are all concepts in the mind.  If one is the only person on the earth, there is no origination of right and wrong.  Like if lighting hits a forest and it burns down, that just is, and not right or wrong.  If you are the only one, then you are the perceptional basis for "nature", and there are no such things as strong morals and good character.  There is just "you" and your surroundings.

 

On your own, you are probably more likely to develop mental concepts of easy and hard.  

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I still can't accept the concept of primordial good.

 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, I still can't accept the concept of primordial good.

 

 

Are you glad to be alive?

[doc benway]

Stimulating topic for discussion, thanks dwai.

Important texts such as the Dao De Jing are multi-dimensional.

What we learn from them is as dependent on how we approach them as what words are there, particularly texts written in a language as ambiguous as Chinese. 

 

I would suggest that anyone interested in a broader perspective of the DDJ simply follow dwai's grand-master's advice and give it a try. If he took the time to recommend this style of study, there's probably something to it. 

We have a tendency to analyze and judge methods, based on our bias and conditioning, not knowing what they may yield, rather than simply try things with an open mind and see what comes of it for us. We already know what we already know, being open we may learn something new.

 

Reading discussion on why this approach may be better or worse, appropriate or misguided, is far less interesting to me than reading how people interpret the chapters from this new and unusual perspective and whether it adds to our individual and collective understanding. I challenge people to focus more on discussing the chapters through this new eye in this thread rather than judging the merits of the method without even trying.

 

IMO, Dao De Jing is not a social manuscript, a guide for ruling a country, a philosophy, or a manual of internal alchemy.

It is a marvelously insightful poem that can accommodate whatever perspective we bring to it and enrich our lives in limitless ways.

 

On a related note, I'd like to share something. A teacher recently suggested to me reading anything important 3 times in 3 different ways - 

1. Read through as you would anything else to get a general sense of the subject 

2. Read the entire thing aloud, to yourself or another (this is really interesting and I highly recommend giving it a try)

3. Read line by line, thoughtfully and carefully digesting and attempting to integrate what is there in your day to day life

[vonkrankenhaus]

On 11/19/2018 at 4:53 PM, dwai said:

The grandmaster of my lineage says that the political parts of DDJ are just bolt-ons and somewhat irrelevant. DDJ is primarily a text of internal alchemy. 

 

This is correct.

 

It is built for a purpose from earlier materials.

 

Earlier materials, earlier versions, were originally about cultivation.

 

People think this book is a book explaining Dao, or explains all of Daoism, but it is not.

 

The term YinYang is only used once in it, for example.

 

It is a "political" or "governmental" manual that uses, "makes use of" the "philosophy" of Daoism.

 

The actual cultivation info in it is reduced and sort of "re-framed" into the newer purposes of the book as we see it.

 

In the modern "culture", people generally pull out the iconic bamboo flute recordings and think this is "mystical" book full of "esoteric" info explaining Daoism, which is just not true - like putting on a show for themselves with this stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Rocky Lionmouth]

On 2018-11-20 at 2:23 AM, Nintendao said:

 

The key, I've heard, is that the nation is meant as one's own body, with the population and everything else being the different agencies interacting inside.

2 cents on this: 

 

I asked Sifu, who’s been studying taoist litterature for decades and holds keys to various texts, about precisely this view this last june and he answered me a definite ”No, dont read it like that, thats just confusion. If it says King it means the King, the Big Man wrote clearly. But its a book written for High Men, so they would understand it.” 

 

[wandelaar]

I have read part of the preview on Amazon and my impression is that the author imagines to know the one and only correct interpretation of the Tao Te Ching on the basis of the oral teachings supposedly transmitted in his lineage for 2500 years (!). Other interpretation are simply branded as not the real thing. Maybe further on in the book some actual arguments are given, but I doubt it. If this is the real Taoism than I could just as well have continued believing that the Bible is the word of God.