How to understand the Daodejing and similar taoist works?

[rene]

5 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

Let's imagine I wrote this:

Quote

.....

A person who wants to change the oil in their vehicle may find this information useful. Of course it's also possible that this is a coded message teaching teenagers how to get laid. I guess it's all a matter of your point of view...

LiT - That's the best post on this thread; though few will understand it an even fewer will agree.

Well done. (-:

Edited November 21, 2018 by rene

[Marblehead]

8 hours ago, steve said:

 

Are you glad to be alive?

Sure.  But then, I have been aware of many lives that I just can't imagine to have been good.

 

[kyoji]

19 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, I still can't accept the concept of primordial good.

 

you don't spend enough time around babies, maybe  or maybe i delude myself with wishful thinking..

[rene]

1 hour ago, kyoji said:

you don't spend enough time around babies, maybe  or maybe i delude myself with wishful thinking..

Not wishful thinking at all!

Laozi seemed to share that as well. A long time ago he whispered in my ear, when I asked him for more words. Here was his reply:

 

 

What could I show you
that you have not already seen?

 

What could I tell you
that you have not already heard?

 

What could you learn
that you do not already understand?

 

There is no need to be kind, just be yourself.
Kindness comes naturally.

 

There is no need to be just.
As a whole human, you are already just.

 

Being who you are in your heart,
brings everything.

 

You already know these things.
They are naturally known, because they are natural.

 

What more could I say that would be of any use?

 

~~~~~

Warmest regards (-:

[kyoji]

1 hour ago, rene said:

Not wishful thinking at all!

Laozi seemed to share that as well. A long time ago he whispered in my ear, when I asked him for more words. Here was his reply:

 

 

What could I show you
that you have not already seen?

 

What could I tell you
that you have not already heard?

 

What could you learn
that you do not already understand?

 

There is no need to be kind, just be yourself.
Kindness comes naturally.

 

There is no need to be just.
As a whole human, you are already just.

 

Being who you are in your heart,
brings everything.

 

You already know these things.
They are naturally known, because they are natural.

 

What more could I say that would be of any use?

 

~~~~~

Warmest regards (-:

<3

[rideforever]

The more important thing is ... can I tell that I am learning something ?
How should one read the TTC ?  This way or that way ?
Well ... can't you just read it and notice if you learnt anything ?
Why ask these questions ?  Is your ability to learn impaired ?
Read it literally ?   Anything actually learnt ?
Read it politically ?  Anything actually learnt ?
etc...

Behind all this is the mind's endless conversations, that signify very little.  Of course the mind (meaning the false ego self) pretends to be interested, especially in big and dramatic subjects, but it is not interested.   It only wants to keep talking.

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, rene said:

Not wishful thinking at all!

Laozi seemed to share that as well. A long time ago he whispered in my ear, when I asked him for more words. Here was his reply:

 

 

What could I show you
that you have not already seen?

 

What could I tell you
that you have not already heard?

 

What could you learn
that you do not already understand?

 

There is no need to be kind, just be yourself.
Kindness comes naturally.

 

There is no need to be just.
As a whole human, you are already just.

 

Being who you are in your heart,
brings everything.

 

You already know these things.
They are naturally known, because they are natural.

 

What more could I say that would be of any use?

 

~~~~~

Warmest regards (-:

  such resonance in these words... wow my friend.  thank you for sharing.

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, kyoji said:

you don't spend enough time around babies, maybe  or maybe i delude myself with wishful thinking..

Yeah, I know.  I like to be an optimist but I remain a realist.

 

[silent thunder]

On 11/19/2018 at 12:24 PM, dwai said:

In a talk I had with Master after class he mentioned that to understand the Tao Teh Ching, and
other such works, it is important to imagine that you are the only person on earth. Can you be right or
wrong then? Is there good or bad?

Thanks for sharing your teacher's question.  i appreciate living, fluid questions.  The type that seem to arise with no implicit unshakable answer of certainty other than those we manufacture and then either cling to... or not. 

 

This exercise he proposes resonates with a notion that arises in awareness regularly of late.  Particularly when i start taking conditions of life personally.
 

are there any separate events in nature?  truly separate from each other?

are there any truly separate events that are in no way interconnected?

 

where do "I" end and the rest of the universe begin?

 

I have no answers for these questions, though some strong persistent suspicions arise.

Edited November 22, 2018 by silent thunder

[wandelaar]

There is a third way which I prefer: striving for optimal precision and clarity of thought, while at the same time realising that definite answers will stay beyond reach for finite mortals like myself.

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by wandelaar

[doc benway]

14 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Sure.  But then, I have been aware of many lives that I just can't imagine to have been good.

 

 

And nearly every one of those people leading difficult lives continue to hold on to life when threatened or nearing the end.

My experience has been that people in the most challenging situations are often the most appreciative of life.

I've known some people who have attempted suicide and failed, living with serious physical disabilities as a consequence (blindness, paralysis), and they were some of the most grateful people I've ever encountered for their opportunity to live.

Also the most generous.

People with terminal illness are generally the most thankful for whatever little time they have left to live.

The poorest folks I've ever met are often the most content.

I suspect that on our deathbeds we will look back over our lives with many emotions at the core of which is the feeling that, whatever else has come and gone, life itself is fundamentally good and difficult to let go.

Sure we could have made a different decision about this or that, we may wish we weren't subjected to a particular set of circumstances, but we have this priceless and transient opportunity to experience this world and everything in it and our potential is limited only by our thoughts.

At least that's how I feel at this moment.

I'm feeling very thankful for my life today, and for all of you jokers and lovers here at the Bums! 

It's very good to be alive today.

 

 

[3bob]

from Dwai quote:

 

"...You must destroy the
mind, the me, the I, and become
the ocean. So to reach even
higher levels you must first use
the mind, but then destroy it to
allow yourself to cross over."

 

I'd say that the mind is not destroyed in such a way by "Tao" which gave it birth so to speak,  (just as Siva/Shakti does not destroy the Tattva's - nor the did the Buddha teach to destroy the jhanas)  but mind can be left behind, and must be left behind to cross over to no-thing, for that is a crossing mind can not make -  like not being able to fit through and still remain a particular thing.

 

try to take your mind-self through and you loose it,  anybody around here that is really, really ready for that (maybe one in a 10 million?)  I'm not at that point besides it really makes the choice not I.  

[dwai]

15 minutes ago, 3bob said:

from Dwai quote:

 

"...You must destroy the
mind, the me, the I, and become
the ocean. So to reach even
higher levels you must first use
the mind, but then destroy it to
allow yourself to cross over."

 

I'd say that the mind is not destroyed in such a way by "Tao" which gave it birth so to speak,  (just as Siva/Shakti does not destroy the Tattva's - nor the did the Buddha teach to destroy the jhanas)  but mind can be left behind, and must be left behind to cross over to no-thing, for that is a crossing mind can not make -  like not being able to fit through and still remain a particular thing.

 

try to take your mind-self through and you loose it,  anybody around here that is really, really ready for that (maybe one in a 10 million?)  I'm not at that point besides it really makes the choice not I.  

It’s really an idea. It sets in motion certain questions such as “what is the mind?” And “can it even be destroyed?”.

also “what does the destruction of the mind entail?”

 

These and more are answered in practice alone. 

[3bob]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

It’s really an idea. It sets in motion certain questions such as “what is the mind?” And “can it even be destroyed?”.

also “what does the destruction of the mind entail?”

 

These and more are answered in practice alone. 

 

I'd say the ocean does not destroy foam, nor does Brahman destroy that which springs forth, (nor a prism colors of light)  but a "return" of same does take place. 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by 3bob

[dwai]

27 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

the ocean does not destroy foam, nor does Brahman destroy that which springs forth, (nor a prism colors of light)  but a "return" of same does take place. 

 

There isn’t anything separate to destroy. That realization is in itself the destruction of the mind/ego (which is nothing but an idea that it is something unique and different from the the “ocean”)  

[3bob]

19 minutes ago, dwai said:

There isn’t anything separate to destroy. That realization is in itself the destruction of the mind/ego (which is nothing but an idea that it is something unique and different from the the “ocean”)  

 

ok, Btw. I prefer the  connotation of the word detachment along these lines, I'd also say that saying ego is just an idea is kind of and understatement but ultimately true.   

[doc benway]

If we're tossing around words, I'll play a bit...

I like the word 'liberated' which implies simply releasing and allowing, more precisely 'self-liberated.'

Destruction implies effort and duality to my ear, and an ending but mind endlessly arises in the living.

And it will self-liberate if we allow it.

Detachment for me suggests disconnection which is not the Way.

Non-attachment sounds better for me than detachment.

 

[dwai]

27 minutes ago, steve said:

If we're tossing around words, I'll play a bit...

I like the word 'liberated' which implies simply releasing and allowing, more precisely 'self-liberated.'

Love it! How about "awake"?

Quote

Destruction implies effort and duality to my ear, and an ending but mind endlessly arises in the living.

And it will self-liberate if we allow it.

Does waking up from a dream entail "end of the dream"? If so, is the dream destroyed? I see what you mean, as destruction carries a violent connotation to me too. I prefer "no mind state" or "non-grasping mind state"...if I had known this long back, might have not taken me so long to appreciate it  

Quote

Detachment for me suggests disconnection which is not the Way.

Non-attachment sounds better for me than detachment.

 

I too like non-attachment better. How about unfettered?

Edited November 22, 2018 by dwai

[rene]

7 hours ago, silent thunder said:

  such resonance in these words... wow my friend.  thank you for sharing.

You are welcome...and they resonate because, just like in the TTC, they're his words - rather than mine. (-:

Edited November 22, 2018 by rene

[rene]

3 hours ago, steve said:

If we're tossing around words, I'll play a bit...

I like the word 'liberated' which implies simply releasing and allowing, more precisely 'self-liberated.'

 

I like 'unencumbered'.

[3bob]

no feathers and no cucumbers, hmm.. a bald bird who doesn't like veggies?

[rene]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

no feathers and no cucumbers, hmm.. a bald bird who doesn't like veggies?

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by rene
fix pic, lol

[silent thunder]

ufettered... unencumbered... liberated... they all resonate...

I can veritably feel it in the soles of my feet with every breath.

 

for me the word that describes it is unfolding

 

the experience of life... of awareness, is one of continual unfolding in simple presence

just me as i am, within the all that also is... all one interflowing process

with many aspects

 

the simple sensation of my feet touching the earth

and releasing into bathing in the sounds of my family and neighborhood

 

unfolding in what is, as it is... and that is it

simple

 

one flowing unfoldingness

 

many rivers, one ocean

all flowing

 

[Marblehead]

I am unfeathered.

 

[wandelaar]

Quote

According to Diogenes Laërtius’ third-century Lives and Opinions of the Eminent Philosophers, Plato was applauded for his definition of man as a featherless biped, so Diogenes the Cynic “plucked the feathers from a cock, brought it to Plato’s school, and said, ‘Here is Plato’s man.’”

Source: https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/animals/miscellany/plato-and-diogenes-debate-featherless-bipeds

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by wandelaar