Reincarnation

[wenwu]

Hello

 

I'd like to know people's ideas on reincarnation. 

 

My wife and I have been trying to concieve for a number of months so far unsuccessfully. 

 

We are about to find out if this month is the month. My wife has some symptoms but we have learnt that it means nothing.

 

Also, my wife's grandmother has been sick for the past few years. In recent months has deteriorated very quickly and we found out today that she was taken to hospital. Everyone is getting ready for her passing, which at this point is more of a blessing

 

I was speaking to my wife about reincarnation. She said she had thought about it before and this morning, before we got the news, had thought and voiced out how nice i would be to have her grandmother reincarnate as our daughter. Her grandmother had a hard life and my wife's wishes are that if she comes back as our daughter she would have an easier life and one where she could fulfill her potential rather than looking after others all the time.

 

Also also, my wife and I took a large role in looking after her grandmother over the last 3 years befire we moved country.

 

Interested to hear opinions

Edited November 20, 2018 by wenwu
Typos

[Marblehead]

Wow!  Whatever comes to my mind while I type I surely hope it offers positive feelings.

 

The concept of reincarnation, as in Buddhism, is not part of Taoist Philosophy.  It may be in Taoist Religion.

 

Philosophical Taoism concentrates on transmutation.  That is, from destruction comes new creation.  But this is not a personal, individuality change.  It is just a natural process of the universe.

 

Your wife's grandmother lived her life within the conditions presented to her.  She will pass as do all living things.  What she was will return to potential for new creations.

 

Tao does not care what we want for this potential to become.  

 

But then, we can hope for the best, whatever that might be.

 

Whatever might happen in the future will depend greatly on how we interact with our reality.  It is perfectly valid to remember the grandmother in any future offspring you and your wife might have, whether male or female.

 

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I tend to wrestle with the idea of reincarnation most of the time and currently I'm at 50/50 belief/disbelief. 

 

But even if we could demonstrate that a certain individual has gone through the process, we still can't assume that everyone does. 

 

From a purely pragmatic point of view, I feel that not to believe in reincarnation/paradise/whatever will make for a better existence. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Cheshire Cat

[rene]

My idea is that all kinds of information, life experiences, etc, - whatever a particle was part of or ever went through - is still present at the particle level; and that information is accessible to current configurations.

 

If that is so - it would explain the source of many ideas, reincarnation being one of them.

 

Whether passed on through genetic linking, or envionmental situations, like attracts like, familiar ground.

 

Some people recall past lives and times so clearly.. it's easy to see how the idea of reincarnation came to be. That said, the idea of it used to reward/punish current behavior is, imo, just a lame control tool.

 

There are other ways this passing of information occurs, but that's another topic.

 

Best wishes to you & your wife!

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by rene

[Maddie]

I have two thoughts on this.

 

First of all as an acupuncturist I've helped a lot of couples with fertility issues so definitely something to consider for this kind of situation.

 

Second as a Buddhist yes reincarnation is very much a part of the process of samsara. As far as Taoism goes I don't know for sure but sometimes when I think of the yin/yang symbol with the polarities turning into each other, it would not seem like a stretch for life to become death and death to become life? no?

[liminal_luke]

I`ve no idea about reincarnation per se, but I do believe that all of us carry our ancestral past with us.  I love this quote from William Faulkner: The past is never dead.  It`s not even past.  Whether or not your potential new child will be the reincarnation of your wife`s grandmother, it`s a sure thing that she`ll be an expression of her great-grandmother genetically.  This is a deep and reciprocal bond.  The grandmother`s life experience will effect her life going forward and her life will reflect back on her ancestors retroactively.  We don`t live for ourselves only but also for those who came before us.  I believe that how we live can redeem ancestral karma; we can untangle traumas in the past that weren`t able to be resolved within a single life.

Edited November 20, 2018 by liminal_luke

[rideforever]

What is going to be reincarnated ?   If you look at a man, what in him ... is his ?   Is it mostly arbitrary accumulation ?  Material ?  Then why would it be reincarnated ? 
Well it is "reincarnated" as what it is from matter to matter.

Matter cannot be reincarnated as light, and light not as material.

Hence nothing real every dies. 
So no need for any anxiety.

What is it inside you that is not matter ? 
Is there anything, perhaps something small ?
And how can you radically increase that ?
How can you transform all your matter into light ?
When you see somebody with pink hair and colourful clothes, you think wow individual.  But at the gig in the evening he stands there with 500 people all the same.  Not so individual after all.
What in you is individual ?
Is your own ?
It has come to my attention that many awakened beings are not that awakened and not that different really.   They are not fully whole and integrated they just managed to put the lights on somewhere.   They have existential stability but not that much.
It my withstand death, but what comes next.

We cannot be certain that paradise awaits.   Perhaps the next world is quite like this, or worse.   
Someone who wishes to live on and on and on and on and on ... in the light, must fall in love with the path.

With growing, integrating, many layers, many consciousnesses, to become quite a bright creature who loves to make light out of himself.  Step by step, inch by inch.
How many of the hours of the day is actually spent on work that creates light in oneself, if one is honest ?

Michael Winn (healingtaousa.com) has perhaps some expertise in taoist practices for conception.

 

[OldDog]

My notions of reincarnation are guided by several fundamental observations on existence.

 

One is the law of conservstion of energy. If one is composed of matter and energy, it seems to make sense that when one passes, a dissociation takes place. That the material part is returned to the earth ultimately to be repurposed. The energy part returns to the total energy of the system, the universe. 

 

This seems to be in keeping with Ch 40 of DDJ ... That is, the principle of reversion being the way of Dao. The passing away and reemergence of life.

 

But what of spirit? Daoist traditions make much of the material form of body, of energy and of spirit. On passing, what becomes of the spirit. How is it conserved? How is it reverted?

 

Not sure I have a lot of answers to the latter. But feel strongly that there is more to being than just physicality and cognitive knowledge. In my own experiences there has been instances of quite strong affinity or aversion to particular people, places and things. Whether that is something being conveyed by spirit and passes down through reincarnation is worth pondering. I have never sensed a recall of specific details beyonnd that.

 

I think in a way we all carry down something of past generations that influences what we are or can become.

 

What your wife expressed is a perfectly valid sentiment and I have no doubt that in some sense it will be carried through. One thing for sure, you will all be making the journey together.

 

Wishing you well.

[Gerard]

You, I, we all are eternal.

 

Definitively, your grandma may return as your newborn but the process is not that simple. 

 

I have met someone in the past whose sister came back and now is her young son. He is her only child and her bond is as strong as when her sister was alive. 

 

Please don't expect this to happen in your case, chances are 50/50 or maybe less. Good luck anyway if you  and your wife want this to happen.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Gerard

[Lost in Translation]

On 11/20/2018 at 9:13 AM, rideforever said:

What is going to be reincarnated ?

 

That's a good question!

 

Looking back on my own life I can see that the person I was years ago is not the person I am today. For example, my ten year old self bears little resemblance to my forty year old self, and I have changed enough since I was forty that I can see a day when even that version of me will seem foreign. Imagine how the process of change will play out over the span of millennia and dozens upon dozens of lives!

 

So what does it mean to reincarnate? Is it a continuation of one's self? What does that mean in light of continuous change?

[OldDog]

Literally, it would mean for some thing to be embodied again. That would seem to mean spirit, if one considers energy to be a physical quality.

 

Continuation of one's self would imply that some recognizable aspect of being is carried forward into another embodiment.

 

Questions about the existence of a self aside, does it suggest a continuation or re-embodiment of knowledge?

[rene]

2 hours ago, OldDog said:

Literally, it would mean for some thing to be embodied again. That would seem to mean spirit, if one considers energy to be a physical quality.

 

Continuation of one's self would imply that some recognizable aspect of being is carried forward into another embodiment.

 

Questions about the existence of a self aside, does it suggest a continuation or re-embodiment of knowledge?

If I may add my small question to yours...

If a goal is to rid oneself of Self - how would reincarnation be a good thing?

[OldDog]

2 hours ago, rene said:

If a goal is to rid oneself of Self - how would reincarnation be a good thing?

 

Yeah, I was hoping to avoid that question because I think it leads us to a Buddhist discussion of self, something I don't feel like I should speak to.

 

But since this is an opinion thread, I will venture this much ...

 

From what I have understood, Daoist practice is not directed at the extinction of self.  It seems to me a goal under Daoism is realization that there is no distiinction between self and other. 

 

Maybe someone can help us fill in this thought ... or correct it, as needs be.

[rene]

22 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

Yeah, I was hoping to avoid that question because I think it leads us to a Buddhist discussion of self, something I don't feel like I should speak to.

 

But since this is an opinion thread, I will venture this much ...

 

From what I have understood, Daoist practice is not directed at the extinction of self.  It seems to me a goal under Daoism is realization that there is no distiinction between self and other. 

 

Maybe someone can help us fill in this thought ... or correct it, as needs be.

Ah, ok, thanks OldDog. I breathe Laozi - but I'm not Daoist; just curious how Buddhists reconciled wanting to be reincarnated while wanting to be rid of that which would be. S'cuze my add-on.

[Lost in Translation]

39 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 It seems to me a goal under Daoism is realization that there is no distiinction between self and other. 

 

I have always felt the "goal" of Taoism is enlightenment. Only the enlightened know what that means. The rest of us are chasing a dream "on faith" (to borrow a Christian concept) and have no idea what we're actually searching for.

[rene]

2 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I have always felt the "goal" of Taoism is enlightenment. Only the enlightened know what that means. The rest of us are chasing a dream "on faith" (to borrow a Christian concept) and have no idea what we're actually searching for.

Aw...now you've done it..

[Marblehead]

I'm not even sure there is a goal let alone defining it as enlightenment.

 

For me, reincarnation is not an aspect of Daoism.  But living a good life is.

 

[OldDog]

12 hours ago, rene said:

... curious how Buddhists reconciled wanting to be reincarnated ...

 

Well, from what I understood of Buddhism, I thought the goal was to escape reincarnation.

 

 

[doc benway]

13 hours ago, rene said:

Ah, ok, thanks OldDog. I breathe Laozi - but I'm not Daoist; just curious how Buddhists reconciled wanting to be reincarnated while wanting to be rid of that which would be. S'cuze my add-on.

 

It's not a matter of wanting to be reincarnated.

More a matter of accepting reincarnation as a normal part of the cyclical experience of life and death.

What they do strive for, one could certainly say want, is a favorable birth in the next life to permit continued study and practice of Dharma.

On the Dzogchen path of Buddhism, the objective is complete liberation in this lifetime, in order to more effectively benefit others.

Just my limited understanding.

 

[OldDog]

13 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

... felt the "goal" of Taoism is enlightenment.

 

Guess it would depend on what you'd call enlightenment and what you think the achievement means.

 

I think the most people's idea of enlightenment is based in a sense of superiority in a worldly sense. That is, the object or state of achievement grants special ability or status in worldly affairs. 

 

If there is such a thing as enlightenment in Daoism, seems like it would be more in the sense of realization. That is, recognizing how the Dao and the manefest world work and thereby understanding how to live in harmony in a natural sense. If that's enlightenment ...

 

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by OldDog
Spelling

[wandelaar]

That's the silly thing about reincarnation. Those who think reincarnation is a fact are doing their very best to escape from future reincarnations, and those who are not sure about it hope to reincarnate!

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by wandelaar

[rene]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

It's not a matter of wanting to be reincarnated.

More a matter of accepting reincarnation as a normal part of the cyclical experience of life and death.

What they do strive for, one could certainly say want, is a favorable birth in the next life to permit continued study and practice of Dharma.

On the Dzogchen path of Buddhism, the objective is complete liberation in this lifetime, in order to more effectively benefit others.

Just my limited understanding.

 

Ah ok, got it, thank you!

[rene]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

That's the silly thing about reincarnation. Those who think reincarnation is a fact are doing their very best to escape from future reincarnations, and those who are not sure about it hope to reincarnate!

 

 

Perhaps.

 

Other than the mechanics and details, aren't all organized belief systems structured the same way? I.e.. X is a fact. If you do Y, you will attain X.

 

X=Heaven, enlightenment, immortality, etc...

Y=Accept Christ, study, practice, cultivate, etc...

 

They all start with X being a fact.

 

X has to be a fact, to support the details of the tradition.

 

Sometimes the Ys seem contradictory to their Xs - but the more complicated/detailed a system is, the easier those contradictions are explained away...or dismissed (God's Will, for example).

 

JMO

Edited November 23, 2018 by rene

[rideforever]

Baking Cupcakes
Another analogy is if you get a large mixing bowl and put eggs and flower etc... in there and mix it all together.   And you poor it into 6 cupcake cases.   Well this is spirit being poored into bodies.
Normally the bodies do not crystalise (cook) the spirit ... it's like they didn't go in the oven.
Then on physical death the spirit is emptied back into the mixing bowl.
And stirred around and then poored into some other cupcake cases.
And this is what normally happens.
And the spirit flows into many bodies one after another.
But in some cases the cupcake does go in the oven and crystalises into a soul.
Then when it is poored back in the mixing bowl it stays in one piece.
And then it is poored into a new body.
And it remains intact.   The soul survives death.
So those who didn't get cooked don't worry.
Those who did get cooked don't worry.
Those trying to get cooked worry a lot.
 

Anthills
An ant in an anthill ... you can't really tell him apart from the other ants, they are all the same.   You could say they are part of the collective-ant-consciousness which churns out loads of them.   And they all sort of do the same thing.   So there's not really anybody there to reincarnate.   When that ant dies and closes his eyes, what is closing his eyes ?  It's not an individual ant it's just a body filled with collective-ant-consciousness.

That ant was never individual.

Same with humongs.  They might decorate themselves with different coloured clothes etc... and standing in a forest a single humong might look very colourful, but when you see a flock of them ... you think, hey wait a second, you all look the same.

Unless that humong ... has done something a bit magic with him, and gone it alone.
Own clothes, own feelings, own thoughts.
Then he snaps off the collective-humong-consciousness and becomes an individual.
Then when you look in his eyes, it's no longer collective-humong-consciousness talking, it is him.
He has his own ideas, that are his, that he made through his life experiences.
It's not a small job.

[wandelaar]

@ rene

 

It's more like:

 

1. X looks like a fact of life

2. I don't want to be limited by facts of life

3. Belief system Y pretends to deliver an escape from X

4. Thus I will belief in Y.

 

Greatly simplified we then have:

 

In the West:

X = death is the end, because when the brain stops functioning all psychical experiences disappear

Y = the doctrine of reincarnation

 

In India:

X = reincarnation

Y = the supposed way to escape from reincarnation.

 

And this explains the paradox.

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by wandelaar