Reincarnation

[rene]

32 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@ rene

 

It's more like:

 

1. X looks like a fact of life

2. I don't want to be limited by facts of life

3. Belief system Y pretends to deliver an escape from X

4. Thus I will belief in Y.

 

Greatly simplified we then have:

 

In the West:

X = death is the end, because when the brain stops functioning all psychical experiences disappear

Y = the doctrine of reincarnation

 

In India:

X = reincarnation

Y = the supposed way to escape from reincarnation.

 

And this explains the paradox.

 

Could be, sure. I yield the details of the minutiae to you and others.  

 

Mine is the way of WuDao.

 

Warmest regards

[wandelaar]

Thank you.

 

I accept the limitations posed by the facts of life, so I don't need a belief system to escape. You could call that realism.

 

Consequently I only accept those components of Taoism (and spirituality generally) that make sense when confronted with and applied in the real world.

[Lost in Translation]

I only realise I've fallen asleep after I awaken.

[wandelaar]

I once experienced dreaming to have woken up, and then woke up again. Maybe Chuang tzu knew the phenomenon?

 

But as to reincarnation: would you still feel as being the same person you were before you "fell asleep" in case almost all of your memories would be gone, when you no longer would know your own name, or how to speak or walk, or the basic facts of your occupation or hobbies, or how the world looks like? Even when there were something like reincarnation, it would not be you but only a minute fragment (some flashes or vague intuitions) of what you once were that would return. And actually most people don't even recognise that fragment for what it supposedly was. So why bother?

 

In my opinion the modern belief in reincarnation in the West mainly consists of a mixture of muddled thought and wishful thinking. Christian ideas about life after death are losing their grip on many western people and so they are searching for something else to believe in to avoid facing the black hole of death.

[OldDog]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

But as to reincarnation: would you still feel as being the same person you were before

 

This is a key point ... and one that I am not sure there is a purely Daoist position. As you point out, our sense of reincarnation is a muddle of various influences ... in the west mostly a Christian hereafter and/or a Buddhist notion of cyclical rebirth.

 

Reincarnation ... especially the Buddhist variety ... has a strong connotation of something being accumulated and carried forward in successive lifetimes. But what could that something be? Certainly not the memory of the trivial events from one lifetime or another. It would seem ... as I understand it from Buddhism ... to be some type of accumulated merit (or otherwise) leading to a more or less idealized ... or at least by some reconing of improved ... future state.

 

But Daoism seems to be focused on the realization of existence as a unity. So, if Daoism does consider reincarnation, do successive lifetimes accumulate to a point of realization? I seem to recall in some text somewhere where realiztion is discussed, that realization can come as a instantaneous flash of insight without a requisite build up of effort. That would suggest that some effort ... whether in a lifetime or many ... might be neccessary in the ordinary case. 

 

It certainly does appear that in the west Chistianity is losing its grip, especially for those that place heavy value on salvation and the hereafter. I think this is evidenced by a general increase hedonism that is evident. The standards of moral living are breaking down as a result. What's to replace them? 

[wandelaar]

5 minutes ago, OldDog said:

What's to replace them? 

 

Trumpism?

[wandelaar]

Lao tzu and Chuang  tzu are not clear about what happens after death.

[rideforever]

What happens to who ?

 

Why do people follow Buddha ?   Isn't it obvious he is different ?

Just listen to his journey, struggle effort courage abandon.

And what journey did you make ?

[rene]

25 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Trumpism?

Really?? Gonna reincarnate that into every thread now?

 

Hey maybe that's it! Maybe what follows into the next lifetime is whatever one is 'fixated' on in this life... and by letting go, liberating one's self of the 'fixations', the turning wheel is escaped from because there's nothing left that's still clung to - to carry into another incarnation!

 

 

 

[wandelaar]

There is no end to human fantasies, particularly religious ones....

[rene]

Pot, meet kettle.

[3bob]

no problem, karma and reincarnation is all based on math and is very exacting.

(except for one hard to figure variable)

Edited November 24, 2018 by 3bob

[wandelaar]

I have had enough of this childish quibble...

[OldDog]

57 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Trumpism?

 

There's nothing new or innovative about narcissistic epistemological nihilism.

[wandelaar]

13 minutes ago, OldDog said:

There's nothing new or innovative about narcissistic epistemological nihilism.

 

That's right. History repeats itself (with some variations), as long as we ignore its lessons.

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by wandelaar

[3bob]

15 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

There's nothing new or innovative about narcissistic epistemological nihilism.

 

sounds Greek to me, or is that Latin?

[wandelaar]

19 minutes ago, 3bob said:

sounds Greek to me, or is that Latin?

 

It's called philosophy. And yes - for the western world philosophy started in ancient Greece and Rome.

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by wandelaar

[3bob]

5 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

It's called philosophy. And yes - for the western world philosophy started in ancient Greece and Rome.

 

 

but what does that have to do with the speed of light or trigonometry? 

[wandelaar]

11 minutes ago, 3bob said:

but what does that have to do with the speed of light or trigonometry? 

 

Sorry - we are in the reincarnation topic right now, if you want to talk about physics you will have to ask me in the topic on the speed of light. In the mean time I will start up the relevant sectors of my internal computer...

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by wandelaar

[3bob]

25 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Sorry - we are in the reincarnation topic right now, if you want to talk about physics you will have to ask me in the topic on the speed of light. In the mean time I will start up the relevant sectors of my internal computer...

 

 

ok, I just thought that if someone was going to re-incarnate in a different star system that the speed of light (or greater) might come into play for them?  (via new multi-dimensional trig. that uses gravity measurements to find and direct them to the best worm holes for such travel) 

Edited November 24, 2018 by 3bob

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

There is no end to human fantasies, particularly religious ones....

 

19 minutes ago, 3bob said:

ok, I just thought that if someone was going to re-incarnate in a different star system that the speed of light (or greater) might come into play for them?  (via new multi-dimensional trig. that uses gravity measurements to find and direct them to the best worm holes for such travel) 

 

See what I mean?

[3bob]

23 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

 

See what I mean?

 

right, and to think those fake pictures of people landing on the moon are real, who could believe such fantasies? 

 

(especially in trying to do so without a Samsung Galaxy 9 cell phone to boot)

Edited November 24, 2018 by 3bob

[Lost in Translation]

10 hours ago, wandelaar said:

But as to reincarnation: would you still feel as being the same person you were before you "fell asleep" in case almost all of your memories would be gone, when you no longer would know your own name, or how to speak or walk, or the basic facts of your occupation or hobbies, or how the world looks like? Even when there were something like reincarnation, it would not be you but only a minute fragment (some flashes or vague intuitions) of what you once were that would return. And actually most people don't even recognise that fragment for what it supposedly was. So why bother?

 

This is the essence of it, is it not? That which reincarnates is an unrecognizable fragment of that which used to be. So what really is happening? We know that physical matter enters into our bodies and is transformed into life sustaining energy. We see this every day. And we also know that neither this matter nor this energy is "you." As far as we can tell, "you" are a pattern of thought, a perception of being, an intellectual and emotional response to the environment in which you live. Can this pattern survive death and find new life in a new body elsewhere? If it can, won't this new life quickly develop its own perceptions, its own responses and thus produce a new pattern?

 

At some point all our thoughts begin to fail us. This can mean one of two things: reality is incomprehensible or we lack the capacity to comprehend reality. Since reality seems to do just fine I find it hard to believe that it's incomprehensible. Thus I am left with the following conclusion: humans are not capable of comprehending reality. That's a hard pill to swallow. Which brings us back to patterns, fragments and reincarnation. Do we trust that we're in good hands, even though we can't prove it? Do we have faith, or do we descend into nihilism? To be nihilistic one must believe one is correct and that nothing makes sense. To have faith is to believe that everything makes sense and one is simply too limited to understand.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Lost in Translation

[Gerard]

4 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

1. Reincarnation ... especially the Buddhist variety ... has a strong connotation of something being accumulated and carried 

 

2. But Daoism seems to be focused on...

 

1. Yes, imprints in our primordial consciousness/spirit/Mind. We all do carry them. Some practitioner can see them through meditative practice or even dreams, others can't. It's just a psychic ability like many others. 

 

2. Practical Taoism. The one I follow it's purely focused on the science of yin & yang. 

[3bob]

Btw.,  it is said that a great master on the other side can enter a very recently deceased persons body,  re-enliven it, then get up and walk away without being on a sci-fi movie set.  (unless the body happens to be located there and was not previously taken by a zombie)

Edited November 24, 2018 by 3bob