What color is jing, qi and shen?

[yuuichi]

All things have color, even if we can’t see that color. 

 

 

[wandelaar]

Then how do you determine an invisible colour?

 

Example: what is the colour of this topic?

[Taoist Texts]

white, gold, purple

[Jeff]

Such color is a translation in (local) mind. A mental mapping that is learned.  Same as with traditions having both a different number of and colors for chakras (dantien).

[LAOLONG]

It is like piss

The more water

You intake

The more transpernt

It is

[voidisyinyang]

22 hours ago, yuuichi said:

All things have color, even if we can’t see that color. 

 

 

 

This is a good question.

Yin jing is black

yang jing is white (Moon, bones, hormones-reproduction)

yin qi is red (past time, spacetime light shift)

yang qi is blue (future time, spacetime light shift)

Yuan qi is green

yin shen is yellow (yellow sprouts, spiritual ego)

yang shen is gold

Innate Nature is clear light (can not be seen but can be listened to as logical inference).

 

If you study the Neidan alchemy texts - it states to visualize green light on the heart - that green light is also the color of the Universe as the Emptiness for Spring Forest Qigong - so it's the Yuan Qi. It's only created after the Red Dragon (yin qi of the liver) is sent down and then sublimated back up as Mercury and then combines with the white tiger to descend back down the front into yuan qi as the Green Dragon.

 

 

So as is taught in Spring Forest Qigong - the Universe is the Green. The yellow is your consciousness. The Red and the Black are the alchemical fire and water. So the black goes up the spine and down the front to the red. The Red goes down the front and up the spine to the black.

 

So it is stated alchemy starts with Jing (lead) and ends with jing (lead). But the new jing is called "yin matter" that is from the future - since Gold has to absorb blue light in order for the red-yellow color mixed with the green to create gold. So the yang qi is absorbed as virtual photons from the future - and this virtual photon shen then creates new Yuan Jing that is gold - so that the yin qi blockages of the past in the yang shen are turned into yuan qi.

 

So when doing the small universe meditation you visualize black at the perineum, green at the heart, red at the kidneys and blue in the third eye and then gold in the lower tan t'ien. It is the yellow light that harmonizes the other colors - the yellow light being the Soil as the yin shen.

Edited November 24, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[rideforever]

16 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

I appreciate the length of study you have gone to in order to provide an answer to this question, and just had a look at your elixirfield page which is very long.
My question to you is : has it worked in you.   
Or are these things a working assumption ?
That page is very very very long.
Even if this alchemical path is true, surely there is a better way.
Following Ramana or somebody simple like that, your chances of success must be 1000% more than alchemy.
I also note that Gurdjieff who was a master of alchemy ... he said that the Eastern enlightenment was correct and that after the Fourth Way the next best was yoga (Indian tradition) and that it took about 10 years of hard work.
He also said that the end result of the path is "I" or to have your own "Real I" ... and not magic powers.
Which once again would indicate that a simple path of Eastern meditation is more likely to get there.
What do you think ?
And where have you got to ?

[voidisyinyang]

9 hours ago, rideforever said:

I appreciate the length of study you have gone to in order to provide an answer to this question, and just had a look at your elixirfield page which is very long.
My question to you is : has it worked in you.   
Or are these things a working assumption ?
That page is very very very long.
Even if this alchemical path is true, surely there is a better way.
Following Ramana or somebody simple like that, your chances of success must be 1000% more than alchemy.
I also note that Gurdjieff who was a master of alchemy ... he said that the Eastern enlightenment was correct and that after the Fourth Way the next best was yoga (Indian tradition) and that it took about 10 years of hard work.
He also said that the end result of the path is "I" or to have your own "Real I" ... and not magic powers.
Which once again would indicate that a simple path of Eastern meditation is more likely to get there.
What do you think ?
And where have you got to ?

You say "that page is very very very long."

Yes and no.

The truth is actually very simple.

So the image I posted above is from Chunyi Lin teaching "The Simplest is the Most powerful" and to "use your consciousness to go into the Emptiness."

That is what he taught in 2000 at the Level 3 retreat I attended. Like yourself, I had read Ramana Maharshi. So when I heard that from Chunyi then I wondered why is consciousness "different" than emptiness? What does that mean?

I then began studying to answer this basic question.

I read one scholarly book a day for 10 years - after I finished my master's degree in 2000. To finish my master's degree I did intensive qigong training from Chunyi Lin of http://springforestqigong.com He said I had an "enlightenment experience." I saw ghosts, and I smell cancer - nonlocally - and I did lots of strong healing.

But as he also said, "you mind is confused." Why? Again it was because I did not understand the answer to that basic question above - why is the "consciousness" different than the "emptiness."

 

Westerners learn "nondualism" from studying Ramana Maharshi and actually get confused. Why? Because Western logic is based on symmetry. So instead of focusing on the "problem" - I will now focus on the solution. What Ramana Maharshi actually taught was to repeat the I-thought not as a mantra but as logical inference. So repeat I-I-I-I-I and if any other thought arises then just ask logically what is the source of that thought? It is the I-thought, so keep repeating I-I-I-I. Then after a while the I-thought "congeals."

 

But that is just the start of the practice. Ramana Maharshi then said to visualize light on the right side of the heart and he called the right side of the heart the "secret pinhole" to "formless awareness."

 

OK so now this is where Westerners get confused about the teaching of Ramana Maharshi. His main student, H.W.L. Poonja or Poonjaji actually said that most Westerners would go to India to study with him but the males and females would end up "shaking up" for sex. Whereas serious advaita vedanta training requires celibacy.

 

In fact Ramana Maharshi said first you need to be vegetarian since a weak body enables a strong mind. But his early book - the 1947 edition of his book, "Who Am I?" actually gives the image he drew for kundalini - rising up from the base of the spine and reproductive area - to the head and then down to the heart.

 

So then Ramana Maharshi was Brahmin and for him to achieve "eternal liberation" he actually meditated nonstop for 9 years. Then he experienced his heart stopping for 15 minutes - and then there was a strong charge or shock on the right side of his heart. Then suddenly a light shown from the right side and went to the left side of his heart and his sense of Self as his ego returned. After that experience then with each breath his mind naturally "empties out" past his physical life - past death - via the right side of the heart.

 

So during those 9 years of his nonstop meditation (eating just a very small - one spoonful of food a day) - he refused to even see his mom when she wanted to visit him. So in my research I discovered a traditional Brahmin priest "rule book" in a used bookstore. I read the book in the store - and it stated that if a Brahmin priest even made eye contact with a female than 3 days of ritual purification was required. So the Brahmin "mind yoga" or jnana methods were very strict indeed.

 

As Vivekananda stated - Jnana Yoga is the highest level of yoga and the most difficult. So clearly the whole "advaita vedanta" movement with tons of "Western teachers" claiming they are enlightened, etc. - this is very limited.

 

Now Gurdjieff - he called this a Number 3 person - someone who has emptied out their conceptual mind through self-concentration. So repeating the I-I-I-I thought so that it congeals and concentrates - this can be achieved in the West say through strict prayer as meditation. But he said the problem with Western monks is they get caught up in the lower emotional blockages. He used his octave system - based on harmonics. I have written articles on Gurdjieff comparing it to Daoist Yoga alchemy training if you want details. So Gurdjieff called the Heart the "Big" or "Large" accumulator and so this is the key to open up for real strong healing energy.

 

So his system is largely based on Mahayana Buddhism - that has 8 levels of consciousness. Gurdjieff's system is pretty much the same philosophy.

 

So the point being is that "mind yoga" is left brain dominant - by repeating self=enquiry - the left brain "guides" the process. Technically using this method you do not need a teacher! You can rely solely on logical enquiry and the energy that develops does so slowly but the "path is the goal." this is also called the "space between thoughts." As the I-thought congeals then the conceptual mind "empties out" and the third eye starts to open up. This is also the same as Vipassana practice only instead of using a "forced" self-concentration method of Japa - there is just a passive "listening" method that Buddha called the "inner ear" method. So as with Jnana yoga - in Vipassana the path is the goal - but the results are quite slow. This is why the royalty of southeast asia preferred the "power yoga" of the forest monks using full lotus meditation that is based on the older Vedic elemental alchemy training (similar to Daoist alchemy).

 

So now we can return to my original question. If Advaita is truth and the path is the goal then how can "consciousness" be different than "the emptiness." Well as with the "color" question - consciousness as per the teaching of Chunyi Lin - is the yellow light. The Emptiness technically can not be seen. But in terms of light - it is the green light. Why is that? Because as per alchemy and Gurdjieff - and even the hidden "kundalini" teaching of Ramana Maharshi - first the Lunar energy has to be stored up and sublimated - this is the Wood-Water energy (the yin qi as Green mercury). So as Chunyi Lin teaches, the energy actually starts from yin qi - from the yin realm as the Emptiness (actually yin matter as the "golden key" that is superluminal as qigong master Zhang Hongbao taught).

 

So yes Ramana Maharshi is correct that the path is the goal, as the source of the I-thought. But the I-thought itself is left brain dominant and yet it has to go to the right side of the heart. This is the real secret revealed. Hidden in the teaching of Ramana Maharshi is what he called the "three in one unity" which is the three gunas as the "gunas of no guna." This is actually from music theory, just as Gurdjieff taught (and as Daoism is also based on music theory). The oldest philosophy of India is actually the three gunas. Why? Human language is more musical, the older it is. Tamil, the language of Ramana Maharshi, is actually a tonal language.

 

So in fact the teaching of Ramana Maharshi, just as in Daoist alchemy, is based on complementary opposites of male and female energy (raja and tamas) and Sattva is the Emptiness. So Ramana Maharshi taught to use the mind to kill the mind. Ramana Maharshi emphasized (contrary to what Westerners want to believe) is that the Self is NOT the light (as in enlightenment). But ironically when the Self manifests then the light is so bright that any ego self-awareness is lost (just like in deep dreamless sleep). So Ramana Maharshi said, ironically, that the Sattva state of pure mind as light then is used to get beyond the mind into the real Self that is not the spiritual ego. He described the Self as the "ether" that powers the light - just as a candle light has an empty space between the light and the wick.

 

So Ramana Maharshi called this highest level to be "Mouna Samadhi" which means "silence samadhi" - so it is logical inference as eternal listening, an eternal process of time-frequency energy transformation. So this ether then CREATES light as the ego and hence the consciousness is the LIGHT that goes into the Emptiness (the ether).

 

So now my original question was answered. The teaching of Ramana Maharshi is actually the same as the teaching of Daoist alchemy. It's just that Westerners want to impose a simplistic rendition of Ramana Maharshi's teaching, as a Western projection.

 

Gurdjieff was not really able to pass on his teachings - as he was relying on too Western concepts and so Westerners could not really "penetrate" to the secret meaning of this "Law of Three." This "Law of Three" really is the same as the "three gunas of no guna" or the yin-yang-void teaching of Daoism. It's all from music theory. But since music theory in the West is taught based on a lie then when Gurdjieff used music ratios like 5/4 and 8/5 and 6/5, etc. then Westerners imposed their wrong Western understanding of "divide and average" symmetric logic onto Gurdjieff's teaching. Thereby, again, losing the secret of the "Law of Three."

 

So the mind control in the West is very deep - from Plato and Archytas - over 2000 years old. Yes the teaching is very simple but it's based on complementary opposites as harmonics. You can study the book "Taoist Yoga:  Alchemy and Immortality" for details - and the websites that are the lineage based on that book. You can also read the book "Foundations of Internal Alchemy" by Wang Mu.

 

As for the practice - again the simplest is the most powerful. So I rely on the "moving of yin and yang" practice. The question for me then is "Why" does it work? It works because for males - the left hand is yang and the lower body is yin. The right hand is yin and the upper body is yang. So you turn the body into a free harmonic oscillator as complementary opposite - due to this secret. Westerners assume the left and right hand are a "symmetric unit" as Plato taught - same with the legs and arms and eyes and ears, etc.

 

So we can see how a very simple teaching is lost to Westerners. As I pointed out even Santi Shi teachers did not know this secret! So they teach people to stand with one hand up and one hand down and one foot forward and one back. But they DON'T teach the secret of "dragon and tiger" that the foundation of Santi Shi said was the secret of the training. You visualize the energy going from the left hand to the right foot and the right hand to the left foot. Again it's simple - but if a Westerner sees someone standing in that position they will never think of the complementary opposites secret of the free energy harmonics.

 

And so to sit in full lotus is also very simple but in fact you want the left leg on top so that the "yang" embraces the "yin" of the lower body. This stores up the energy internally.

 

Also there is eye rotation based on the same principle.

 

So yes the teaching is very simple once you understand the secret. But if you study Ramana Maharshi and even Gurdjieff you probably are not going to figure out the secret.

 

 

[thelerner]

On 11/23/2018 at 12:13 PM, yuuichi said:

All things have color, even if we can’t see that color.

 

I wonder if you could also say, all things have a season.   And from there you get into classic element theory, how things affect each other, how they generate, cooperate and destroy- in cycles. 

[yuuichi]

50 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

5/4 and 8/5 and 6/5

 

How do these harmonics even translate to the three gunas? I thought they would be simple intervals. But I think most ancient music is actually pentatonic so perhaps i’m wrong 

Edited November 25, 2018 by yuuichi

[rideforever]

7 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Here's my answer about consciousness and emptiness.  Consciousness means you are present, emptiness means you are absent ... how to get from presence to emptiness ?   Surrender.
In fact the path is about creating something that is then surrendered.

 

As for Gurdjieff ... well he had a concept of working from essence.   All this alchemy stuff, for all its ? usefulness, is working from personality which is in its nature a bit of a mess.   Once you work from essence (from the identity) then the path is very different and simpler.

 

Having said that I do a lot of personality-subonscious-animal work because it is very disturbed and non-communicado.  The Indian approach is too internal-meditative for me, and doesn't include much outside which is fine .... good for last phase of life perhaps.  Or perhaps not.

Edited November 25, 2018 by rideforever

[moment]

Teaching with too many words, maybe it is time to re-evaluate.

Edited July 6, 2019 by moment

[voidisyinyang]

12 hours ago, yuuichi said:

 

How do these harmonics even translate to the three gunas? I thought they would be simple intervals. But I think most ancient music is actually pentatonic so perhaps i’m wrong 

yes for the "three gunas" - I have the specific references proving my point - in my link below. I will get them for you. But it is very simple - it is Raja as 3/2, Perfect Fifth, and Tamas as 4/3, perfect Fourth and Sattva as the octave 1/2.

 

That's it: Yang is 3/2, Perfect Fifth and Yin is 4/3 Perfect Fourth and Emptiness is the octave as 1/2.

 

Now why do Westerners not understand this? the ratios that Gurdjieff used actually were from Philolaus who lied with his Lyre - he flipped the Lyre around and used a double octave. So he tried to cover up the changing of the One.

 

The "one" changes as eternal interdependent origination - as Buddhism calls it - or rather as eternal motion that is harmonic in time-frequency (not a closed spatial measurement).

 

So the Chinese Daoist tuning is based on pitch pipes (not strings that are contained spatial measurement).

 

In the West - this pitch pipe tuning also existed in West Asia but with the switch from Dionysus (Lunar) to Apollo (Solar) then the switch was from the pitch pipe to the Lyre (harp).

 

So then the basic issue is this. The 2/3 is the Perfect Fifth as Yang but it is different geometric ratios so it is C to F as 2/3 subharmonic but it is also 3/2 as C to G (overtone harmonic). This means that the future and the past overlap at the same time! Western science calls this noncommutative phase and it  is relativistic quantum unified field science.

 

So what was very simple in ancient times is only now being rediscovered as  the greatest cutting edge science. But with this caveat - up till now "symmetric" math based on the wrong music harmonics "worked" (meaning it enabled very "powerful" and "precise" technology to "conquer" Nature and other cultures - at the expense of creating a huge black spirit low frequency "entropy" on Earth - the externalized byproduct of the wrong music harmonics.

 

So take for example the small universe meditation in Daoist Neidan. It is 12 harmonic nodes - and it alternates as yin and yang - and this is actually the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth alternating. this is Daoist music harmonics as alchemy. This is what Gurdjieff called the "circulation of energy" meditation based on OM.

 

I have the details again in my training pdf. So in nonwestern music harmonics it is emphasized that the relation of the Perfect Fifth changes based on the relation to the One as the root tonic. Western "science" tries to cover this up and then calls it "time-frequency uncertainty." So in music theory - this is called the Ghost Tonic - since 4/3 can not be the harmonic ratio since 3 as the denominator is not the same octave harmonic to the 1. Since 2 does not go into 3 then there can not be a symmetric math based on logarithms. But that is what the West did - it LIED by flipping the Lyre around. So then by changing the One - you get 0 to 8 using 6/8 as 3/4 for the 4/3 to now become GEOMETRIC MAGNITUDE so you can "add" the 3/2 of 8/12 (wavelength and frequency are inverse ratios) with the 4/3 (while covering up the fact that the 4/3 is from 0 to 8 as a different ONE.

 

I have the details on my blog - that as the original "bait and switch" that lies about the noncommutative phase source of the music harmonics and turns it into a visual geometric magnitude to create the Greek Miracle of irrational magnitude aka ALOGON that Islam math called the Surd (literally meaning not able to hear). So the Logos was originally Pythagorean alchemy meditation as 1:2:3:4 - the Tetrakytus. It got changed into Alogon as the "greek miracle" of Western science promoted by Plato. This was very precise but not accurate.

 

It took Louis de Broglie's Law of Phase Harmony to realize the logical conclusion of symmetric math (relativity) clashed with quantum physics empirical truth of energy as frequency - since as a particle goes to the speed of light it's frequency increases but also its time increases due to relativity. But from Pythagoras - frequency is inverse to time. So de Broglie realized there HAS to be a 2nd time clock from the future that is non-local with the past - and harmonizes the phase.

 

That was in the 1920s - and he predicted the electron then has to have a non-local phase that would show up in a quantum diffraction experiment (the double slit experiment). He got the Nobel Prize for this and to this day scientists are still "debating" the double slit experiment but Yakir  Aharonov has now proven empirically that this non-local reality is demonstrable in the laboratory.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

10 hours ago, moment said:

After laying a solid reliable foundation, in your chosen discipline, (let us say 5-10 years of hard work, for a loose point of reference). Yet, you are still thinking and/or teaching in complex or wordy ways, maybe it is time to re-evaluate.

Actually I did just 6 months of "hard work" in 2000 - and since then I've been kicking back, having fun - so that was 18 years ago.

I realize if someone wants to publish a newspaper then they are to limit their vocabulary to an "8th grade level." My mom used to own a legal newspaper for the area - a monthly.

These days people really do need images to understand things. So let's switch over to images to have some more fun!

The OP question is the color of the three treasures - jing, qi, shen.

We can also call this the Tao of Colours.

So what we have here is the "three in one" unity.

https://southerncrossreview.org/74/tao-colors-1.html

The Tibetan Buddhists call it the "clear light."

In Daoist alchemy the Yuan Shen is the "clear light."

 

Quote

Light emitted through a colourless, transparent medium first manifests as white. As the medium becomes denser and the transparency decreases, the light darkens to hues of yellow, orange, and red.

So that is the 2

Quote

Darkness illuminated through a colourless, transparent medium first manifests as black. As the medium becomes denser and the transparency decreases, the darkness lightens to hues of violet, indigo, and blue.

So that is the 1

What does that leave  us?

Green as the Yuan Qi, the 3 as the Single Perfect Yang.

Case closed.

Quote

The green colour develops further out when the polar coloured light bands disperse and unite (3).

 

[voidisyinyang]

11 hours ago, rideforever said:

Here's my answer about consciousness and emptiness.  Consciousness means you are present, emptiness means you are absent ... how to get from presence to emptiness ?   Surrender.
In fact the path is about creating something that is then surrendered.

 

As for Gurdjieff ... well he had a concept of working from essence.   All this alchemy stuff, for all its ? usefulness, is working from personality which is in its nature a bit of a mess.   Once you work from essence (from the identity) then the path is very different and simpler.

 

Having said that I do a lot of personality-subonscious-animal work because it is very disturbed and non-communicado.  The Indian approach is too internal-meditative for me, and doesn't include much outside which is fine .... good for last phase of life perhaps.  Or perhaps not.

 

Gurdjieff called the essence: "Objective Music."

 

As I said - I have articles on Gurdjieff and Daoist alchemy.

 

https://www.mind-energy.net/archives/283-Gurdjieff-and-the-Triode-Amplifier.html

 

Feynman already was dreaming in color (DMT-pineal gland) and was young, healthy – so his emotional ethereal body was already strong. He was developing his Higher Emotional consciousness but he stopped.

 

Anyway Feynman just assumed that his brain was “bored” with lucid dreaming and therefore was making up new gibberish – he didn’t want to analyze it and of course Freudian psychology didn’t provide any answers.

 

The subconscious answer though lies in his Triode Tube Amp work – Feynman focused on one particular problem which first gave him the “genius” reputation. A radio had really strong noise – and Feynman figured out that the tube amps had to be reversed because the preamp was getting to hot to fast.

 

As I’ve stated the I-thought is the Pre-amp and Feynman, by relying solely on mind yoga, ALSO heated up his brain too fast, without grounding the energy in his lower tan tien of Taoist alchemy.

 

Gurdjieff states very clearly that the problem with the West is that the sex energy remains undeveloped – and clearly Christianity doesn’t develop the sex energy (not CONSCIOUSLY that is). Most people consider Gurdjieff a Sufi but he stated that he relied on Pythagorean teachings—the original gnostic Logos of the Bible. The Logos goes back to the time of tantra in Buddhism and in fact Gurdjieff’s teaching is most closely related to mahayana buddhism, as detailed in Professor and yoga master Nan, Huai-chin’s books (best-sellers in Asia, but unknown in the West, precisely because Nan focuses on grounding the energy in the body, instead of relying on mind yoga).

 

The connection between the Taoist lower tan tien – or what Gurdjieff called the Moving Center – and the Intellectual Center (the upper tan tien, the brain) is the middle tan tien or the Emotional Center (the heart). What happens is that the heart emotion is over-excitement as the alchemical transformation of sex energy – and the love energy is shot out of the eyes as love-light. That’s how tantra works—you shoot the heart energy out of the eyes, through the pineal gland, but at the same time you take in the Moving center energy from where you shot the Love energy. It’s just yin-yang or negative-postive harmonics.

 

As Gurdjieff states, the Moving Center is NEUTRALIZED or grounded by the sex energy and this is why it’s so important to develop the sex center. It’s detailed how Gurdjieff also practiced what I call “O at a D” – in Colin Wilson’s book The Occult.

 

So in Taoism the meditation practice always focuses on the lower tan tien – in order to take the electromagnetic love energy of the heart-mind – and ground it in the stomach (so that the energy doesn’t just stay at the electrochemical level of over-excitement). But this grounding also entails replacing the moving energy with the love energy – and this is why Gurdjieff always ate very little food.

That was his tantric secret. I assure you that the western diet is totally against alchemy (whether it’s lack of omega-3, too much omega-6 or sugar and salt, etc.)

 

Gurdjieff practiced what in Taoism is called a “modified bigu” diet.

 

Ramana Maharshi, for example, insists that even mind yoga, what he teaches, must rely on vegetarianism.

 

So anyway as the heart energy increases then the higher emotional consciousness is achieved – but only when this is grounded in the stomach – through pure logic as the source of the I-thought – will Higher Intelligence be achieved (what’s called Nirvikalpi Samadhi or the Emptiness in Taoism).

 

Just as Richard Feynman reversed the amp tubes so that the radio wouldn’t overheat – so too must the pre-amp, the I-thought, be reversed so that it’s stored in the stomach, thereby causing the final level of alchemy described by Gurdjieff in a chart in the end of “In Search of the Miraculous” – the heart-mind has now been completely filled with the sex energy converted into pure consciousness and, just as Ramana Maharshi achieved and Gurdjieff describes: the WILL (kidney reproductive energy of the moving center) and the I-thought are merged or united back into pure consciousness (the Number 8 person of Gurdjieff or the Level 8 consciousness of Mahayana Buddhism).

 

Just like Christ, Ramana Maharshi literally stopped his heart for over 10 minutes, but did so with total self-awareness, the I-thought as the Pre-Amp. This is the goal of Advaita Vedanta, the secret of the Gnostics, etc.

 

https://www.mind-energy.net/archives/259-How-Qigong-or-Taoist-Yoga-Explains-Gurdjieff.html

 

So again the diatonic Pythagorean scale that Gurdjieff gives is based on the Law of Three — the negative and positive centers as he calls it or the Perfect 4th/Perfect 5th harmonics which create what’s known in the West as the “comma of Pythagoras” — the deviation from symmetry causing the shocks of full energy transduction.

 

Gurdjieff describes the scale shocks through the alchemy of the Law of Octaves — as a shock of air or breath and a conscious shock of intention. Gurdjieff explains that while there are 3 shocks the first happens without alchemy, naturally: the mechanical shock of food. The exercises Gurdjieff relied on to initiate these three shocks were dancing that activates the special breathes of the body, fasting, yogic body postures; and something he called “circulation of energy.”

[rideforever]

3 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Why do you say the Dantien is the moving centre ?

[moment]

2 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

Actually I did just 6 months of "hard work" in 2000 - and since then I've been kicking back, having fun - so that was 18 years ago.

I realize if someone wants to publish a newspaper then they are to limit their vocabulary to an "8th grade level." My mom used to own a legal newspaper for the area - a monthly.

These days people really do need images to understand things. So let's switch over to images to have some more fun!

The OP question is the color of the three treasures - jing, qi, shen.

We can also call this the Tao of Colours.

So what we have here is the "three in one" unity.

https://southerncrossreview.org/74/tao-colors-1.html

The Tibetan Buddhists call it the "clear light."

In Daoist alchemy the Yuan Shen is the "clear light."

 

So that is the 2

So that is the 1

What does that leave  us?

Green as the Yuan Qi, the 3 as the Single Perfect Yang.

Case closed.

 

 

Well then, if you are having fun.

[voidisyinyang]

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

Why do you say the Dantien is the moving centre ?

Why do you say the Dantien is the moving centre ?

Because of the three brains - intellectual, emotional and moving.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=7ZQMCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT104&lpg=PT104&dq=gurdjieff+moving+centre+spine&source=bl&ots=-67QZqRsOC&sig=EuUjECwVRLrag1WMnFVLe2s8Clw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP29zvuvDeAhVMq1kKHXdEAVQQ6AEwC3oECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=gurdjieff moving centre spine&f=false

and here https://www.academia.edu/5838382/Gurdjieff_on_Sex_Subtle_Bodies_Si_12_and_the_Sex_Life_of_a_Sage

they are located in a three storied structure of man namely upper floor (the head), middle floor (the chest) and bottom floor (the back and the lower part of the body).

https://www.gurdjieff.justwizard.com/Being_Food.html

As this book explains - the moving centre belows to the lower part of the body, and works like a chemical factory (alchemy).

wiki:

Quote

Gurdjieff in his own work does not go to as much detail on centers but constantly refers to man as a 'three brained being,' with reference to the three lower centers, moving, emotional and intellectual.

 

 

So you can see here the moving center is the spine but also the lower part of the body - so it is equivalent to the ming-men and base of the spine as the lower tan t'ien alchemical function.

intellectual is head

so chest is emotional.

 

The problem is that the Westerners tried to rely on Ouspensky who did not understand Gurdjieff:

 

Why do you say the Dantien is the moving centre ?

 

This is not true at all. LA is the alchemical complementary opposite - that is why Westerners don't understand it. So I point out in my article Gurdjieff relied on 5/4 which is the cube root of two based on the symmetric logarithmic math. This is why the Westerners could not understand is explication of alchemy. So "La" is 5/3 which is the complementary opposite of 6/5 (major sixth and minor third) while 5/4 is major third and 8/5 is minor sixth.

The problem with this system is it already assumes a symmetric measurement - so the "shocks" lose their complementary opposite meaning.

 

 

 

[rideforever]

8 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

I believe the spine cerebellum is the moving centre.   I don't see any connection between the spine and Dantien.   I don't think he meant the Ming Men.
He used the moving centre analogy with brand new students trying to speak in very human simple language, he didn't mean the Dantien.
Likewise he had an exercise to differentiate sensing/ feeling / mentation, for instance of three fingers of the hand .... which correspond to his 3 centres.   Again the dantien is not involved.

[freeform]

On 24/11/2018 at 4:38 PM, rideforever said:

Even if this alchemical path is true, surely there is a better way.
Following Ramana or somebody simple like that, your chances of success must be 1000% more than alchemy.
 

 

Just to interject (in a hopefully useful way). I think it’s important to distinguish  Nei Dan (Daoist Internal Alchemy) from what Drew (voidisyinyang) is doing.

 

Drew has created his own system using ideas and techniques from many different areas. The results he gets are predicated on this system.

 

It has very little to do with the classic Nei Dan methods (even though it heavily references works in the Nei Dan field of study).

 

PS. The chakras have nothing to do with the Dan Tien.

PPS. Imagination or visualisation has nothing to do with most of the classical Daoist internal arts. (Although it’s the backbone for almost all modern ‘reinterpretations’ of these arts.)

[voidisyinyang]

10 hours ago, rideforever said:

I believe the spine cerebellum is the moving centre.   I don't see any connection between the spine and Dantien.   I don't think he meant the Ming Men.
He used the moving centre analogy with brand new students trying to speak in very human simple language, he didn't mean the Dantien.
Likewise he had an exercise to differentiate sensing/ feeling / mentation, for instance of three fingers of the hand .... which correspond to his 3 centres.   Again the dantien is not involved.

yes the Gurdjieffians debate this ad naseum because they don't study Daoist alchemy so they are confused.

I posted the image and quotes - you can debate the other followers of Gurdjieff if you think they are confused. haha.

[voidisyinyang]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Just to interject (in a hopefully useful way). I think it’s important to distinguish  Nei Dan (Daoist Internal Alchemy) from what Drew (voidisyinyang) is doing.

 

Drew has created his own system using ideas and techniques from many different areas. The results he gets are predicated on this system.

 

It has very little to do with the classic Nei Dan methods (even though it heavily references works in the Nei Dan field of study).

 

PS. The chakras have nothing to do with the Dan Tien.

PPS. Imagination or visualisation has nothing to do with most of the classical Daoist internal arts. (Although it’s the backbone for almost all modern ‘reinterpretations’ of these arts.)

I have not "created his own system."

I'm against the use of the term "system" for Daoist philosophy. The word system implies a closed geometry model while Daoist alchemy is based on an open time-frequency energy from music harmonics.

As for the chakras and Dan Tien - I'll quote Bill Bodri relying on Master Nan, Huai-chin. He's considered the last great Ch'an master and he was a best-selling author in China - so I think he's a fairly good reference:

Quote

Shakyamuni talks a lot about tantric things but regularly people don't know it....because when you activate the sex chakra it shakes and shakes  and buzzes like a cicada, and you can change its vibration rate or frequency. ...As to the OM sound it naturally originates inside the chi channels below the sex chakra. It's the natural sound of the lower channel chakra chi.

That's Bill Bodri - the quote is not online anymore so I'm not sure if he changed an article he posted or its in one of his books. https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Tao-Longevity-by-Huai-Chin-Nan.pdf

Here is Master Nan's book on Tao and Longevity, discussing chakras.

So if people want to get hung up on semantics and what "real" Neidan is - that's not my problem. haha. I go for meaning, not semantics.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by voidisyinyang

[rideforever]

28 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

yes the Gurdjieffians debate this ad naseum because they don't study Daoist alchemy so they are confused.

I posted the image and quotes - you can debate the other followers of Gurdjieff if you think they are confused. haha.

 

I don't think there is a need for that kind of comment, and it makes me question your whole approach and grandiose descriptions.

The Dantien ... we can be almost certain that Gurdjieff did not mean that as the moving centre.  Why ?  It is not part of Christianity or Western spirituality at all.   Their spirituality is about consciousness in the head and the heart.
Dantien spirituality is of China and Japan, it is not developed in India either, in general.

Secondly Gurdjieff's whole teaching is about integrating the subconscious mind, which is who we actually are ... according to him.   So these 3 tier diagrams are about that, harmonising the subconscious.   
The Dantien is nothing to do with that.

Furthermore one famous exercise he gave to newcomers was ... on one one hand to choose 3 fingers, and to have the first "sensing" itself, the second "feeling itself", the third "aware" of itself ... i.e using the moving centre, feeling centre, mental centre.   So there is no way the Dantien is involved in this.

It thinks that's pretty open and shut.

And in your large treatise of umpteeing tied together spiritualities there are many errors of this ilk.
I think your mind is rather fanciful and inexact.

[Mudfoot]

16 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

Daoist alchemy is based on an open time-frequency energy from music harmonics.

You have tried to explain this for a long time, and I must say I cannot follow this thought. 

Can you explain this as if I was in eight grade, you know, with small words? Very small words. Small. 

16 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

As for the chakras and Dan Tien -

 

Which, in the case of the LDT, are not the same. The LDT would be the kanda (bulb), at least in some systems. But then, some daoist teachers tend to include a larger area, and for example JAJ does include the front and back chakra points (or something like that). 

 

[voidisyinyang]

8 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

You have tried to explain this for a long time, and I must say I cannot follow this thought. 

Can you explain this as if I was in eight grade, you know, with small words? Very small words. Small. 

Which, in the case of the LDT, are not the same. The LDT would be the kanda (bulb), at least in some systems. But then, some daoist teachers tend to include a larger area, and for example JAJ does include the front and back chakra points (or something like that). 

 

Can you give me the Chinese translation of the word "system" and show me where that word exists in any spiritual teaching in Chinese? I doubt it does - the word "system" is a closed geometric form, contrary to real meditation.

As Master Nan, Huai-chin points out - chakras, dan t'ien - that's all the Skanda of Form - so if you want to bicker over semantics in the skanda of form - go ahead. haha.

As for music theory - it is very simple.

The root tonic is the first note that you hear and it naturally has harmonics as the natural numbers so, 1, 2, 3 in the Dao refers actually to music harmonics. The trick is that the octave is the same "pitch" as the first note - and so you double the frequency. But frequency is inverse to TIME and you can not see time. The West assumes a visual measurement of frequency as wavelength and then tries to make it a symmetric geometry lining up with the 3. The 3 in Daoism is also called the  Single Perfect Yang because as the subharmonic it is 2/3 as C to F, a Perfect Fifth while as the overtone harmonic it is 3/2 as C to G. So you have G=3=F at the same time. This means that the 3 is nonlocal - in two different places at the same time as the future and the past, that overlaps over the one. To try to line up the 3 with the 1 then you "double" the subharmonic so that instead of 2/3 now there is 4/3. But if you are using 3 as the denominator that means you CHANGED what the "one" was as the root tonic! Therefore the root tonic has a geometric dimension of zero that can not be seen but it can be listened to - as the 5th dimension. That is the secret of the Dao. This was then developed as an alchemical science - from the original human culture, the San Bushmen. So the San Bushmen taught to visualize fire at the base of the spine and this creates a boiling steam called N/om. This is the same as Daoist teaching. The SAn Bushmen taught that the female sleeps in the left hand of the fire and the  male sleeps on the right hand. In DAoism the left hand is yang for males - and the female is yang internally.

So you can see how this developed into an alchemical science based on yin and yang of the energy channels. So for example the exercise "moving of yin and yang" relies on the male putting the left hand as yang facing the lower body as yin (below the navel) and the right hand is yin and faces the upper body that is yang. This naturally turns the body into a free harmonic oscillator since the yin energy as 4/3 is then transformed as yin qi into yang qi as 2/3. So then the yin keeps turning into the yang and the yang is actually nonlocal as the "three in one" unity.