On the nature of creation - Ramana Maharshi

[Still_Waters]

I just posted this on another site but would be interesting in discussing this statement from Ramana Maharshi on this site.

 

Talk 177 from "Talks with Ramana Maharshi" (this goes deep into the process of creation):

Ramana: "...the body and all other objects are contained in the brain. The LIGHT (my caps) is projected on the brain. The impressions in the brain become manifest as the body and the world. Because the ego identifies itself with limitations, the body is considered separate and the world separate."

I've practiced conscious sleep for years with the understanding that "Man is made in the image of God" and "As above so below". When one watches dream formation from start to finish, one can see how the light (of the dreamer in this case) projects on the brain of the dream-objects and how the impressions in the brain of the dream-object project the dream-body and the entire dream-world. It was Ramana's words, as noted above, that moved me to explore in this direction.

When one can still the mind ("Be still and know ... that ... I AM ... God"), one can sense alluring vibrations that are more subtle than thoughts. These vibrations, as many sages will affirm, pull one from the crown chakra (sahasrara) towards the LIGHT of the Source. The sounds are as alluring as the sounds of the sirens luring sailors to the distant shore in the Homeric epic, the Odyssey. This would be an very interesting subject for further discussion. (Edgar Cayce, the American Christian mystic who was reportedly able to read the Akashic Records of the Cosmic mind, talks about a dot --- possibly the OM point in Hindu terminology --- which he becomes as he travels towards the LIGHT drawing him to the Source. The "dot" --- bindu --- in OM is generally considered to be the symbolic representation of the seed from which the universe springs into existence.)

Edited November 23, 2018 by Still_Waters

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, Still_Waters said:

Ramana: "...the body and all other objects are contained in the brain. The LIGHT (my caps) is projected on the brain. The impressions in the brain become manifest as the body and the world. Because the ego identifies itself with limitations, the body is considered separate and the world separate."

 

In who's brain?

[rideforever]

Ramana sat in meditation for 14 years before something happened to him.  It didn't happen to anyone else, not you nor me, it happened to him.   So it must be clear that something individual changes.   And that a lot of work is required to make it change.
It was the same for all the great sages.

[Still_Waters]

18 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

In who's brain?

 

The dream is often used as an analogy to the process of creation whereby the "One becomes many".

 

Do you view individuals as separate entities or as parts of a whole. Therein lies the answer to your question "in who's brain".

[Still_Waters]

18 hours ago, rideforever said:

Ramana sat in meditation for 14 years before something happened to him.  It didn't happen to anyone else, not you nor me, it happened to him.   So it must be clear that something individual changes.   And that a lot of work is required to make it change.
It was the same for all the great sages.

...or it can mean that Ramana became established in that which doesn't change but lies beyond/behind it all and is inherent in all of creation.

 

You raise an interesting point which touches on the nature of the Reality and the "unity in diversity" of which Ramana has often spoken.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Still_Waters

[dwai]

Here “brain” likely is a mistranslation. He means “mind”. And the “light” is light of awareness. Ramana was awakened in a flash when he was 16 years old. He didn’t have to sit in meditation for 14 years for that btw. 

 

He is explaining the process of waking world, dream world and causal nescience, as explained in the  Mandukya Upanishad. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by dwai

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Here “brain” likely is a mistranslation. He means “mind”. And the “light” is light of awareness. Ramana was awakened in a flash when he was 16 years old. He didn’t have to sit in meditation for 14 years for that btw. 

 

That makes more sense. When you take mind or consciousness as foundational than brains and bodies have to be epiphenomena. 

[rideforever]

1 hour ago, Still_Waters said:

...or it can mean that Ramana became established in that which doesn't change but lies beyond/behind it all and is inherent in all of creation.

Yes indeed HE (individual) became established in Consciousness, which is prior.
HE (individual) created a Comm----------union    meaning a bridge of the personal and universal.
And that is why HE will live beyond death.

This is all too clear for those who's eyes are not clouded by fear.

Just look at the acorns.
1 in 10,000 grows into trees.
As above so below.
It's all too obvious.

J Krishnamurti said "there it is again".  Meaning it wasn't there now it is.   Meaning his state is changing.
Meaning he has a state.
Meaning HE is an individual.

Ramana said his state matured and then dropped into the heart in the chest.
Meaning something individual changed.

All too obvious.

All too obvious.

Only if you love God, will a communion be made, like Jesus said.   
Meaning love of Real Self, that is already available right now.
But not already actualized.
And actualization is a journey that is free, but also not free.
It has no price, but it is intense passion and love for truth that will deliver you.
Have no fear, it is waiting for you.  Within.

 

There is work to be done, understood, love, devoted and so on.
Non-dual, Dual ?   All big words for people who have no intention to follow any path.
They wish to be told that doing nothing is okay.
Well it is okay ... for those it is okay for.
But is there fire in your heart ?

Quite strange to see how many people on the planet, so shocked by the pain of this layer of life, half-way between animal and angel, in so much pain .... they deny their own existence.
It's easier that way.
Emptiness, meaninglessness, atheism ... materialism .... all the same root.
The shock of being awake ... and then refusing it.
Making any excuse not to live.
As an individual.
 

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by rideforever

[Still_Waters]

22 hours ago, dwai said:

Here “brain” likely is a mistranslation. He means “mind”. And the “light” is light of awareness. Ramana was awakened in a flash when he was 16 years old. He didn’t have to sit in meditation for 14 years for that btw. 

 

He is explaining the process of waking world, dream world and causal nescience, as explained in the  Mandukya Upanishad. 

Since the text is a translation, you may have a point here regard a mistranslation but keep in mind that words clearly become inadequate as one goes deeper and deeper into meditation. The key point in Ramana's statement was a description of the process in which individual entities appear as "apparently" separate entities. There are obvious implications in accordance with the "As above so below" and "Man is made in the image of God" principles.

 

You referenced the Mandukya Upanishad, which is one of my favorite Upanishads. As you duly noted, "he (Ramana) is explaining the process of waking world, dream world, deep sleep state, and the turiya state beyond those three as described in the Mandukya Upanishad. Having been stirred to practice "conscious sleep" by the Mandukya Upanishad, I have been able to observe how dream-objects manifest in the dream-world. In validating Ramana's statement, I came to the same conclusion that he did but am still thinking about what are the best words to describe the formation of the entity --- brain, mind, consciousness, etc. In any case, Ramana's statement seems to be quite accurate and that is what I did personally to initially validate what he said via the dream experience .... before going further.

[Still_Waters]

22 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

That makes more sense. When you take mind or consciousness as foundational than brains and bodies have to be epiphenomena. 

It has been well said that the body and brain and mind itself are ultimately all  projections of consciousness. You raise a good point which can lead to an even deeper discussion on the nature of the Reality and the manifestation of "apparently" separate entities. The words themselves, as I noted in a previous post, eventually become completely inadequate so let's be mindful about the inherent problems with specific terminology and focus more on the process.

[Still_Waters]

21 hours ago, rideforever said:

Yes indeed HE (individual) became established in Consciousness, which is prior.
HE (individual) created a Comm----------union    meaning a bridge of the personal and universal.
And that is why HE will live beyond death.

 

Good point. What I am trying to discuss, however, is the process whereby that "which is prior" (in your terminology) becomes the "individual" (in your terminology) and HOW one shifts attention to become "established in the Consciousness which is prior". The process of creating the "union", the bridge of the personal and universal, is what interests me most for purposes of this discussion.

 

You also stated "that is why HE will live beyond death". Since you seem to equate "HE" with the "individual", what exactly do you think it is that lives beyond death?

 

 

[rideforever]

1 hour ago, Still_Waters said:

Good point. What I am trying to discuss, however, is the process whereby that "which is prior" (in your terminology) becomes the "individual" (in your terminology) and HOW one shifts attention to become "established in the Consciousness which is prior". The process of creating the "union", the bridge of the personal and universal, is what interests me most for purposes of this discussion.

 

You also stated "that is why HE will live beyond death". Since you seem to equate "HE" with the "individual", what exactly do you think it is that lives beyond death?

 

In the presence of a teacher or tradition you feel the higher state of consciousness and learn to maintain it when not with the teacher.  This is done in manifold ways for instance having higher intention, mantra, living in an ashram and so on.

The process can be described accurately in a technical fashion but it requires a great deal of learning.
For instance the Halo at the back of the head is a representation of the awakening of Consciousness that occurs at the back of the head.  That is the location of that centre.   The heart can be awakened in the centre of the chest, because that is the location of that centre.
How does it work exactly ?  Well it's not a short story and takes a good much time.
With Consciousness, with eyes open and relaxed you rest backwards until you are seeing from the back of the head.  Then you redirect your internal-feeling-attention to the centre of that seeing, and you merge with it.  This is a special attention and not the usual external laser attention.   This inner feeling attention feels identity.
That begins the lighting of the centre.   Carry on like that for months or years and it becomes big.  You feel yourself residing there and it expands beyond the frontier of the physical head.  It is totally still and peaceful inside, which is what you are.  And it is directly connected to the Universal Consciousness behind ... so you feel behind your head it opens into infinity.
This process is actually pulling in the Universal Consciousness into this centre at the back of the head, so it fills that centre with Consciousness which is eternal.
I have learnt this over 7 years with hundreds of hours of direct instruction, so this is just a quick note !!!!
There are other important centres in the forehead. 
And of course the heart, dantien, solar plexus.
All of which require their own work, but the Halo centre (Consciousness) is very important for technical reasons.
What is it that lives beyond death ?  Each seed that is cast by existence is an ambassador of existence with a unique journey.  And this seed can awaken or not awaken.
These seeds are the way that existence explores itself.
When a human says "hello", who is it that speaks ?  Well it is the seed, and the seed only lasts forever if it becomes self-realised otherwise it's gone.
Of course somewhere back there you can say that existence is always the one speaking, sort of.
But the seed does not really know that, so it's an untrue statement for an ordinary person to say that.
Nevertheless it is true from the perspective of god-source-existence.
An awakened human can feel his own individual self (the seed that grew up) and also he can feel back along the tree to the source, But he is not really the source, he is a structure the source created in order to explore itself.
Anyway ... it's all a bit of a mystery, even for existence, existence is creating seeds because it also doesn't really know why it is here.
It's all pretty crazy.
Anyway if you sit in meditation for long enough awakening often happens on its own.
 

[Still_Waters]

6 hours ago, rideforever said:

How does it work exactly ?  Well it's not a short story and takes a good much time.

With Consciousness, with eyes open and relaxed you rest backwards until you are seeing from the back of the head.  Then you redirect your internal-feeling-attention to the centre of that seeing, and you merge with it.  This is a special attention and not the usual external laser attention.   This inner feeling attention feels identity.
That begins the lighting of the centre.   Carry on like that for months or years and it becomes big.  You feel yourself residing there and it expands beyond the frontier of the physical head.  It is totally still and peaceful inside, which is what you are.  And it is directly connected to the Universal Consciousness behind ... so you feel behind your head it opens into infinity.
This process is actually pulling in the Universal Consciousness into this centre at the back of the head, so it fills that centre with Consciousness which is eternal.
I have learnt this over 7 years with hundreds of hours of direct instruction, so this is just a quick note !!!!

There are other important centres in the forehead. 
And of course the heart, dantien, solar plexus.
 

First of all, I want to thank you for your very informative, experiential response.

 

I was drawn to a process similar to what you just described with only somewhat minor variations. (I will try to use your terminology wherever possible since it is quite clear and appropriate.) When the mind is completely still and thought-free, one becomes aware of very subtle vibrations in the crown of the head (as opposed to the back of the head in your process). These vibrations are subtler than thoughts and are generally obscured by one's thought vibrations. One is drawn to those vibratory "sounds" just as Ulysses was drawn to the sounds of the sirens in Homer's epic, the Odyssey. Instead of being shipwrecked on the distant shore as ships were in the Odyssey, the vessel (body/ego) is destroyed/transcended (these words are clearly inadequate, but the best I can do for now) as "this inner feeling attention feels identity" as you described. Therein, "it is totally still and peaceful inside, which is what you are. And it is directly connected to the Universal Consciousness behind ... so your feel above (as opposed to behind) your head it opens into infinity".

 

This is a great beginning so let us proceed a step further as this is where I ultimately wanted to go when I introduced this subject. As one becomes "directly connected to the Universal Consciousness behind" it all and "it opens into infinity", I have meditated extensively on what to do next once one gets glimpses of the infinite consciousness without all the details. At first, like the "Sleeping Prophet Edgar Cayce" , I had the initial urge to explore the Universal Consciousness in detail as in past lives and the Akashic Records and other things along those lines. That didn't last long for reasons which we can discuss later. Eventually, I became inclined to just rest where "it is totally still and peaceful inside" and be receptive to whatever is manifested and/or revealed and upon which one's pure intuition is inclined/guided to act. I would be very interested in hearing what you have to say on this subject.

 

P.S. Although I have done extensive chakra meditation in the past, I am no longer inclined to meditate similarly on the other centers which you mentioned such as the "other important centers in the forehead", the "heart", the "solar plexus", etc. The subtle vibrations at the crown of the head command the most attention now and, as you stated in the rest of your post (which I will comment on in a separate post) allow us to trace back or " feel back along the tree to the source".

[Still_Waters]

6 hours ago, rideforever said:

What is it that lives beyond death ?  Each seed that is cast by existence is an ambassador of existence with a unique journey.  And this seed can awaken or not awaken.
These seeds are the way that existence explores itself.

 

An awakened human can feel his own individual self (the seed that grew up) and also he can feel back along the tree to the source, But he is not really the source, he is a structure the source created in order to explore itself.
Anyway ... it's all a bit of a mystery, even for existence, existence is creating seeds because it also doesn't really know why it is here.
It's all pretty crazy.
Anyway if you sit in meditation for long enough awakening often happens on its own.
 

Those are profound statements and I can relate to them best with my own symbology. I often meditate on the process of creation using the OM symbology with the bindu (dot/point) closely correlating to your "seed" which connects to "a structure (entity) created in order to explore itself". "These seeds are the way that existence explores itself". This is well said.

 

It would seem that, once one connects to the Source, one can shift attention from the Source perspective to the entity perspective without losing its direct connection to the Universal Consciousness just as an actor can assume a role when appearing on the stage without losing his connection to his worldly identity. In this manner, one remains connected to the Source while simultaneously acting out one's role in an outwardly ordinary manner.

 

Once again, it would be interesting to hear what you have to say on this subject.

 

P.S. I broke my response to your lengthy post into two parts since it seems easier to discuss the two related points separately at this time. It is my sense that the process is one subject and the "what next" is another subject though the two are obviously closely related.

 

 

[rideforever]

8 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

It would seem that, once one connects to the Source, one can shift attention from the Source perspective to the entity perspective without losing its direct connection to the Universal Consciousness just as an actor can assume a role when appearing on the stage without losing his connection to his worldly identity. In this manner, one remains connected to the Source while simultaneously acting out one's role in an outwardly ordinary manner.

Bindu in the forehead is indeed the centre of the Soul, the structure the Source created.
Actor analogy is a good one except that the Actor is Real, it is not something that will be discarded or to be looked down upon.   The Actor is the point.   The Source has created us as Actors/ Ambassadors/ Souls ... and this can become eternal if awakened.   And continue to grow by pulling more and more of the Source into itself, meaning it deepens its relationship with itself.

[rideforever]

8 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

 

My understanding is :
The crown at the top is the access gate to the Universal Subconscious and the spirit descends into the body through it, after which it should be closed - hence that hat the Jews wear.  If you go up through it again many magic things happen, because the U.S is full of magical things colours energies and so on.   However the gate to Universal Consciousness is at the back of the head and that is where one needs to go in order to become Conscious and free.
Also the purpose of this work is not to gain access to records or powers, but to gain identity and communion with the Source, which is freedom and meaning.
There are a number of phases of this kind of work, a sort of rhythm : firstly abide / deepen connection with oneself at the back of the head - this involves using inner-feeling-recognition to sense I am here .... secondly feel behind into the UC and then flow backwards surrender backwards merge backwards rest backwards .... thirdly rest in union and become natural .... fourthly maintain during activity at all times ... fifthly it expands to include the front of the head and descends into the body.
Work with the Bindu .... not sure what you mean by this ... your practice sounds a bit like the Sant Margh practice of following the inner sound / inner light.
Something Bindi means the 3rd eye which is a 2nd area of work.
afaik

[Still_Waters]

15 hours ago, rideforever said:

My understanding is :
The crown at the top is the access gate to the Universal Subconscious and the spirit descends into the body through it, after which it should be closed - hence that hat the Jews wear.  If you go up through it again many magic things happen, because the U.S is full of magical things colours energies and so on.   However the gate to Universal Consciousness is at the back of the head and that is where one needs to go in order to become Conscious and free.
Also the purpose of this work is not to gain access to records or powers, but to gain identity and communion with the Source, which is freedom and meaning.
There are a number of phases of this kind of work, a sort of rhythm : firstly abide / deepen connection with oneself at the back of the head - this involves using inner-feeling-recognition to sense I am here .... secondly feel behind into the UC and then flow backwards surrender backwards merge backwards rest backwards .... thirdly rest in union and become natural .... fourthly maintain during activity at all times ... fifthly it expands to include the front of the head and descends into the body.
Work with the Bindu .... not sure what you mean by this ... your practice sounds a bit like the Sant Margh practice of following the inner sound / inner light.
Something Bindi means the 3rd eye which is a 2nd area of work.
afaik

One must follow one's intuition and my intuition has led me to follow the subtle vibrations back to the Source from the crown of the head. After I had already gravitated to that practice, I realized that Edgar Cayce did something similar except that he followed the Light.  ( I am not familiar with Sant Margh, but gravitated naturally toward my particular practice.)

 

I can relate quite easily to four of the five phases that you mentioned while I must ponder the fifth phase.

 

[Still_Waters]

15 hours ago, rideforever said:

Bindu in the forehead is indeed the centre of the Soul, the structure the Source created.
Actor analogy is a good one except that the Actor is Real, it is not something that will be discarded or to be looked down upon.   The Actor is the point.   The Source has created us as Actors/ Ambassadors/ Souls ... and this can become eternal if awakened.   And continue to grow by pulling more and more of the Source into itself, meaning it deepens its relationship with itself.

My earlier meditations did eventually rise to the ajna chakra in the forehead and rested there for a while .... after, I might add, going through the other chakras. It has since been drawn to the crown and beyond.

[Still_Waters]

I just wanted to thank rideforever for the informative comments. Our paths seem to have a lot in common.

[rideforever]

2 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

I just wanted to thank rideforever for the informative comments. Our paths seem to have a lot in common.

A pleasure !

[3bob]

since there is only one of us all the talk of multiple and great beings is still related to various realms, with the 3rd eye having vision of those various beings and realms... granted the heaven realm is great but at the end of day (and of realms) it is not enough, for only the Self is.   

Edited December 4, 2018 by 3bob

[Still_Waters]

On 12/4/2018 at 12:27 PM, 3bob said:

since there is only one of us all the talk of multiple and great beings is still related to various realms, with the 3rd eye having vision of those various beings and realms... granted the heaven realm is great but at the end of day (and of realms) it is not enough, for only the Self is.   

While I agree with your point that, ultimately, there is no plurality, it is often difficult to speak from two radically different perspectives simultaneously ---- that of unity consciousness and that of apparent individualistic separateness.

 

There is a famous Zen saying from the period of the Tang Dynasty that I have never forgotten. "Equality without differentiation is poor equality; differentiation without equality is poor differentiation". There's just unity in diversity.

 

Now, to get back to your original point, "to whom was your post directed?"

 

(I'm playing with you; it's a good post.)

Edited December 7, 2018 by Still_Waters

[3bob]

directed at an apparent us 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Still_Waters said:

While I agree with your point that, ultimately, there is no plurality, it is often difficult to speak from two radically different perspectives simultaneously ---- that of unity consciousness and that of apparent individualistic separateness.

 

There is a famous Zen saying from the period of the Tang Dynasty that I have never forgotten. "Equality without differentiation is poor equality; differentiation without equality is poor differentiation". There's just unity in diversity.

 

Now, to get back to your original point, "to whom was your post directed?"

 

(I'm playing with you; it's a good post.)

 

Your Zen quote is an important differentiation from the classical hindu view. It is saying something different than 3bob.

[rideforever]

None of us is "unity consciousness" ... you can see this very clearly when you try to manifest a new star ... give it a try for a few minutes.  
Nothing right.
So what are we then ?
We are structures created in the outflow of Creation that have a certain duration unless we create a union with the Source, in which case we become a Communion-Being ... which is a like a leaf that knows the branch trunk and roots.
And that leaf has its own intelligent perspective on the universe.
If the leaf before Communion then it actually dies as that perspective is lost permanently, it's not like when the leaf dies it wakes up again ... it does not, it just dies, bye bye.
But I wouldn't worry about it as the One was always behind us anyway.
So then I suppose a nice approach to life is to stop hiding and start doing cool stuff without fear.

In which case you come back down the mountain and just be what you are.

A lot of spiritual talk is just cowardice and refusal to be cool roll up sleeve do the thing.

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by rideforever