On the nature of creation - Ramana Maharshi

[3bob]

"the ego is very important... until one no longer needs it."

 

and which one is that?

[Still_Waters]

5 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

 

Anyway truth is humans are not so mega intelligent, they need simple instructions.

So saying "let yourself die"  "you are Brahman" is appropriate, but don't get on high horse and take it literally.

 

So where was that ashram, always interested to have good recommendations.

 

Others can be touch by a master and bang.

Others struggle and struggle and struggle and no amount of magic will make it quicker.

 

Masters often don't really understand either.

How many are engaged in complex energetic or esoteric work, who don't really understand the point of waking up, and just want more power.

 

How many say "this is all there is", or "we don't exist", or "emptiness is fullness", or "mindfulness is emptiness".

Wow, crazy.

So mankind's intellectual power not so much.

Often better to shut up and keep head down, hang around with someone with Light, cross fingers and smile nicely.

 

 

Thank you for the very thorough and thoughtful response. I agree that most humans "need simple instructions", as you pointed out. Those simple instructions though, as you also pointed out, are often not without their own set of problems.

 

My teacher left the spiritual plane in 2015 so she no longer frequents the earthly ashrams. Here is a link to a story written about her in the book, "Living Women Saints of India". It may give you some insights into what it was like to practice over 30 years with this "No Nonsense Yogini".

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=ACdgNlL-q3cC&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=ma+yoga+shakti&source=bl&ots=OdkrqP1eqM&sig=ynQriv4csDux4MWZyYYiTMG8mMI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3rUAVbz0GtLlsASQhoDQBg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=ma yoga shakti&f=false

 

Unfortunately, as you also pointed out, too many self-proclaimed "masters" "don't really understand the point of waking up, and just want more power". A real master can see deeply into a disciple's psyche and ask a simple question or make a brief mind-boggling statement that triggers a process leading to an enlightening experience. My spiritual mentor once said something to me (only four words)  that really pissed me off and led me to leave her for almost two years whereupon, through meditation and meeting other masters, I eventually realized that what she had said was right on target. Somehow, she understood that her brief intervention would trigger what it did ... and, during that two year period, it was constantly on my mind (first in anger, then in doubt, then in pondering deeply, and finally in realization of the Truth in what had been communicated). Wow ! That corresponds in a way to your statement, "Others can be touch by a master and bang." The first verbal touch took a long time (about 2 years) to bear fruit but, after trust and confidence was established, I never again took anything that she said lightly and, henceforth, it was more like a series of "bangs" to which you alluded.

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Still_Waters

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Still_Waters said:

Are you suggesting that, for a realized being, words are adequate to express the Reality ? As eloquent as a master may be, my experience has been the opposite of yours in that words, while most assuredly helpful in certain instances and actually in most instances with the masses, are at least two levels removed from the Reality that they are trying to express (words and thoughts constituting a minimum of two levels though I am aware that some masters speak without activating the thought processes). Having spent time with masters who communicate in complete and utter silence, that "communication" (in my opinion) is incomparable to anything expressed in words.

 

Since you mention the Taoists, there is a saying attributed to Lao Tzu that has resonated completely with me. Though I don't recall the exact words, the gist is: "In utter emptiness and complete silence (thoughts implied as well), simply watch the Return (to original nature)." How does one communicate that in words. My sense is that it must be experienced.

 

Having said this, words do serve a purpose .... until they are no longer needed.

 

I am saying that with a master they can express it in words. Those words carry the energy/knowing with it. It is more about the capacity of the listener, whether hearing the words or a direct mental connection.

 

This chapter of the TTC may be what you mean by quote, but once again, dont stop only part of the way through the chapter as it is only talking about the view from the point of 10,000 things. There is still that mountain than comes back and that divine/royal part is the golden child stuff I mentioned earlier...

 

SIXTEEN

Empty yourself of everything. Let the mind become still.

The ten thousand things rise and fall while the self watches their return.

They grow and flourish and then return to the source.

Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.

The way of nature is unchanging. Knowing constancy is insight.

Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.

Knowing constancy, the mind is open.

With an open mind, you will be openhearted.

Being openhearted, you will act royally.

Being royal, you will attain the divine.

Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao.

Being at one with the Tao is eternal.

And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Still_Waters said:

Are you suggesting that, for a realized being, words are adequate to express the Reality ? As eloquent as a master may be, my experience has been the opposite of yours in that words, while most assuredly helpful in certain instances and actually in most instances with the masses, are at least two levels removed from the Reality that they are trying to express (words and thoughts constituting a minimum of two levels though I am aware that some masters speak without activating the thought processes). Having spent time with masters who communicate in complete and utter silence, that "communication" (in my opinion) is incomparable to anything expressed in words.

Some sages have an uncanny ability to transmit the truth (even in words). I think/IME it is because the written/studied word works at the subtle level (madhyama), where as words verbalized without presence mainly work at the gross level (vaikhari). 

 

1 hour ago, Still_Waters said:

 

Since you mention the Taoists, there is a saying attributed to Lao Tzu that has resonated completely with me. Though I don't recall the exact words, the gist is: "In utter emptiness and complete silence (thoughts implied as well), simply watch the Return (to original nature)." How does one communicate that in words. My sense is that it must be experienced.

 

Having said this, words do serve a purpose .... until they are no longer needed.

Reminds me of an old story I had heard. Once a sincere student goes to an old master reputed to the best, who has only 3-4 students sitting around him in silence. Not a word is spoken. The student sits for a few days but gets frustrated and leaves to go the master who is reputed to be second best, who has 10-15 students sitting around him and they all are doing some yogic practices with minimal words being uttered. The student spends a few more days here and finally, sufficiently frustrated in his ability to get the answers he was seeking, he goes to the third best master. Upon reaching there he sees hundreds of students and the master is preaching the truths, expounding on the sutras for hours on end. Student finds himself being very happy. After a few days he approaches the master and says “master, it looks like you are not getting the credit you deserve. When I was asking for references to great masters, I was told you are only third best in the land, the other two masters A & B are considered best and second best respectively! How unfair...I visited them both before coming to you, and i found your teachings to be most meaningful. Please master, tell me how I can help you remedy this gross injustice!”

To that the master C replied .. “what did you see when you went to master A?”

student replied “he wasn’t teaching anything, just sitting quietly and smiling!”

 

master C asked “what about master B?”

 

student replied “he was just teaching some meditation and yogic techniques and using very few words!”

 

To that master C replied “ my dear student, how I wish I was able to teach like masters A and B.  They are both at a higher level than me, and so, master B is able to teach what I can convey with hours of lectures with his presence along with just simple statements and meditative techniques, while master A doesn’t even need to say anything, his mere presence is all it takes for the teachings to be transmitted! You my dear student were not prepared for masters A or B, and that’s why you couldn’t benefit from their teachings.”

 

student retorted “ so why where there only a handful of students with each of these masters, while you have hundreds?”

 

master C replied “that’s because most of the students are not qualified for the other masters’ teachings yet. They have to attain a degree of purification of the mind to comprehend what they teach. So they come to me, as I give them material in a way that will help their minds grasp. It is a longer path.” 

 

 

[3bob]

nice story Dwai,  btw. master A is able to benefit any being regardless of their "qualifications".

[Still_Waters]

16 hours ago, dwai said:

Some sages have an uncanny ability to transmit the truth (even in words). I think/IME it is because the written/studied word works at the subtle level (madhyama), where as words verbalized without presence mainly work at the gross level (vaikhari). 

 

Reminds me of an old story I had heard. Once a sincere student goes to an old master reputed to the best, who has only 3-4 students sitting around him in silence. Not a word is spoken. The student sits for a few days but gets frustrated and leaves to go the master who is reputed to be second best, who has 10-15 students sitting around him and they all are doing some yogic practices with minimal words being uttered. The student spends a few more days here and finally, sufficiently frustrated in his ability to get the answers he was seeking, he goes to the third best master. Upon reaching there he sees hundreds of students and the master is preaching the truths, expounding on the sutras for hours on end. Student finds himself being very happy. After a few days he approaches the master and says “master, it looks like you are not getting the credit you deserve. When I was asking for references to great masters, I was told you are only third best in the land, the other two masters A & B are considered best and second best respectively! How unfair...I visited them both before coming to you, and i found your teachings to be most meaningful. Please master, tell me how I can help you remedy this gross injustice!”

To that the master C replied .. “what did you see when you went to master A?”

student replied “he wasn’t teaching anything, just sitting quietly and smiling!”

 

master C asked “what about master B?”

 

student replied “he was just teaching some meditation and yogic techniques and using very few words!”

 

To that master C replied “ my dear student, how I wish I was able to teach like masters A and B.  They are both at a higher level than me, and so, master B is able to teach what I can convey with hours of lectures with his presence along with just simple statements and meditative techniques, while master A doesn’t even need to say anything, his mere presence is all it takes for the teachings to be transmitted! You my dear student were not prepared for masters A or B, and that’s why you couldn’t benefit from their teachings.”

 

student retorted “ so why where there only a handful of students with each of these masters, while you have hundreds?”

 

master C replied “that’s because most of the students are not qualified for the other masters’ teachings yet. They have to attain a degree of purification of the mind to comprehend what they teach. So they come to me, as I give them material in a way that will help their minds grasp. It is a longer path.” 

 

What an awesome story ! Purification is indeed the key, as duly noted in your story. "They have to attain a degree of purification of the mind to comprehend what they teach." In a nutshell, that is the key.

 

Your earlier point ("Some sages have an uncanny ability to transmit the truth (even in words). I think/IME it is because the written/studied word works at the subtle level (madhyama), where as words verbalized without presence mainly work at the gross level (vaikhari). ") is also right on target. With my spiritual mentor, there was indeed an "uncanny ability to transmit the truth (even in words)" though there were generally very very few words needed to make the point, as in my prior example (four words). Sometimes, the presence alone --- even a glance --- spoke volumes.

 

I love your posts ! To a large extent, we seem to be on exactly the same wavelength.

 

 

[Still_Waters]

16 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

I am saying that with a master they can express it in words. Those words carry the energy/knowing with it. It is more about the capacity of the listener, whether hearing the words or a direct mental connection.

 

This chapter of the TTC may be what you mean by quote, but once again, dont stop only part of the way through the chapter as it is only talking about the view from the point of 10,000 things. There is still that mountain than comes back and that divine/royal part is the golden child stuff I mentioned earlier...

 

SIXTEEN

Empty yourself of everything. Let the mind become still.

The ten thousand things rise and fall while the self watches their return.

They grow and flourish and then return to the source.

Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.

The way of nature is unchanging. Knowing constancy is insight.

Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.

Knowing constancy, the mind is open.

With an open mind, you will be openhearted.

Being openhearted, you will act royally.

Being royal, you will attain the divine.

Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao.

Being at one with the Tao is eternal.

And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away.

That's a nice quote from the Tao, but I hold fast to my point that Truth cannot ultimately be expressed in words. Words may be very helpful along the way and, to some extent, a few words from an enlightened master can trigger major breakthroughs. As one matures spiritually, less and less words are needed until , eventually, that knowing silence is completely sufficient.

 

By the way, have you read the beautiful story above by Dwai? If so, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Which of the three masters in the story would command your attention most ?

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, Still_Waters said:

That's a nice quote from the Tao, but I hold fast to my point that Truth cannot ultimately be expressed in words. Words may be very helpful along the way and, to some extent, a few words from an enlightened master can trigger major breakthroughs. As one matures spiritually, less and less words are needed until , eventually, that knowing silence is completely sufficient.

 

By the way, have you read the beautiful story above by Dwai? If so, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Which of the three masters in the story would command your attention most ?

 

Hi Still Waters,

 

If one has realized a thing one is able to describe it to one degree or another.

 

What do you think is happening with Master A in the story? Do you think they are all just sitting there staring at each other or is more going on?

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

That's a nice quote from the Tao, but I hold fast to my point that Truth cannot ultimately be expressed in words. Words may be very helpful along the way and, to some extent, a few words from an enlightened master can trigger major breakthroughs. As one matures spiritually, less and less words are needed until , eventually, that knowing silence is completely sufficient.

 

By the way, have you read the beautiful story above by Dwai? If so, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. Which of the three masters in the story would command your attention most ?

 

Yes, I read it.  But, in many ways it highlights our same disagreement about the mountain coming back again or not.  None of the masters would really classify as what I would call a true master. The problem with the story is that is all about the master, and not the capacity of the student.  The first master did nothing and was incapable of helping the student even after days of him sitting there.  A true master both "radiates" and then also teaches to the level of capacity of the student. In the story, the student felt nothing (and hence the master was not radiating), and also the master made no effort to help at the level of capacity of the student.  So what this story says is that the first master is an astral level teacher that has not yet realized the "light" and so is not yet radiating the truth. Additionally, is still ego based as he/she is not willing to work at more physical layers of existence. 

 

A true master teaches/transmits to the capacity of the student, not the other way around. A true master also "radiates" beyond mind (and mind to mind communication) and directly shares presence/space. The first part of Chapter 27 of the Tao Te Ching describes this well...

 

TWENTY-SEVEN

A good walker leaves no tracks;

A good speaker makes no slips;

A good reckoner needs no tally.

A good door needs no lock,

Yet no one can open it.

Good binding requires no knots,

Yet no one can loosen it.

Therefore the wise take care of everyone And abandon no one.

They take care of all things And abandon nothing.

This is called “following the light.”

...

 

The wise abandon no one... 

[3bob]

hey Jeff, why so many assumptions? The story could have multiple interpretations or levels of meaning since limited information is given in it.

 

 

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

What an awesome story ! Purification is indeed the key, as duly noted in your story. "They have to attain a degree of purification of the mind to comprehend what they teach." In a nutshell, that is the key.

 

Your earlier point ("Some sages have an uncanny ability to transmit the truth (even in words). I think/IME it is because the written/studied word works at the subtle level (madhyama), where as words verbalized without presence mainly work at the gross level (vaikhari). ") is also right on target. With my spiritual mentor, there was indeed an "uncanny ability to transmit the truth (even in words)" though there were generally very very few words needed to make the point, as in my prior example (four words). Sometimes, the presence alone --- even a glance --- spoke volumes.

In my case, it was the touch of my master's index finger to my forehead. He literally kicked my butt through the (gateless) gate, so to speak. That being said, there are valuable nuances to what Jeff is writing too. It is always about both the teacher and the student. For instance, Jeff asked (and I roughly paraphrase)  "why was Master A not able to help the student? Indeed, if he really was a powerful master, he should have had the ability to influence even beginners/less advanced students!" 

 

I think the answer might lie in whether the student was able to grasp what was being transmitted by Master A in silence. In Jeff's tradition, the teacher can "feed" the student, but still the student needs to be prepared...open at the heart level first  - I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong here. This is what I call purification of the mind (which will progressively open the chakras - which happens whether one is using raja yoga, bhakti yoga, jnana yoga or karma yoga). Typically in order for jnana yoga to work, some preliminary work needs to happen, which will result in what is called antahkaranashuddhi (or purification of the mind -  ego - intellect - memory store complex) . Those could be in the form of (one or various combinations of) raja, karma, bhakti yoga. When the work is sufficiently done, the heart opens up, and is able to receive the transmission. 

5 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

 

I love your posts ! To a large extent, we seem to be on exactly the same wavelength.

 

 

 

Thanks and likewise - I'm only discovering your posts now but I do like what i read.

[3bob]

for Grace yoga to work it makes the choice...

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, 3bob said:

hey Jeff, why so many assumptions? The story could have multiple interpretations or levels of meaning since limited information is given in it.

 

 

Yes, but my response was for Still_waters as he was the one who asked the question.  

 

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

for Grace yoga to work it makes the choice...

 

Minds make choices, not grace....

 

SEVENTY-NINE

After a bitter quarrel, some resentment remains.

What can be done about this?

The wise keep their half of the bargain

But do not exact their due.

Virtuous people perform their part,

But those without Virtue require others to fulfill their obligations.

The Tao of heaven is impartial.

It remains with those who are good.

 

The Tao of heaven is impartial... And gives to all.  More a question of who can hold on to it, as... It remains with thos who are good.

[3bob]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Yes, but my response was for Still_waters as he was the one who asked the question.  

 

Minds make choices, not grace....

 

SEVENTY-NINE

After a bitter quarrel, some resentment remains.

What can be done about this?

The wise keep their half of the bargain

But do not exact their due.

Virtuous people perform their part,

But those without Virtue require others to fulfill their obligations.

The Tao of heaven is impartial.

It remains with those who are good.

 

The Tao of heaven is impartial... And gives to all.  More a question of who can hold on to it, as... It remains with thos who are good.

 

mind does not move or decide for the power of Grace,  and the TTC quote is not in context with that.

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, 3bob said:

 

mind does not move or decide for the power of Grace,  and the TTC quote is not in context with that.

 

Yes, that is what the TTC quote says.  Grace (or Tao of Heaven) is impartial and flows to all.  Are you saying something different?

[3bob]

the power of Grace is not a power controlled by or forcible by mind or mental abilities.  

[Still_Waters]

22 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Hi Still Waters,

 

If one has realized a thing one is able to describe it to one degree or another.

 

What do you think is happening with Master A in the story? Do you think they are all just sitting there staring at each other or is more going on?

In the case of Master A, I can only comment from my direct experiences with Masters who have taught in utter silence. There is definitely more going on. To be receptive, one must still the mind completely. Then, if a question should arise, the entire "response" simply floods one's consciousness as when one opens one's eyes on top of a mountain. One does not see things sequentially, as with words, but the complete understanding floods one's consciousness just as the whole panorama floods one's vision when one opens one's eyes on top of a mountain. Once one "digests" the happening, there may be some silent contemplation on what has transpired after which one returns to the stillness until another question arises. When there are no questions arising, one simply abides in the peace of the Great Stillness. Some of my "silent interactions" lasted as long as 3 hours.

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, Still_Waters said:

In the case of Master A, I can only comment from my direct experiences with Masters who have taught in utter silence. There is definitely more going on. To be receptive, one must still the mind completely. Then, if a question should arise, the entire "response" simply floods one's consciousness as when one opens one's eyes on top of a mountain. One does not see things sequentially, as with words, but the complete understanding floods one's consciousness just as the whole panorama floods one's vision when one opens one's eyes on top of a mountain. Once one "digests" the happening, there may be some silent contemplation on what has transpired after which one returns to the stillness until another question arises. When there are no questions arising, one simply abides in the peace of the Great Stillness. Some of my "silent interactions" lasted as long as 3 hours.

 

Thank you Still Waters,

 

I will say that my experience is much different than what you have described. Much like Jeff described earlier, it is the Master that radiates and it is that, which takes one to deeper levels of silence to deeper states of being. A sharing of Oneness through the direct transmission of the Masters being.

 

To me it isn't about thoughts arising and then the answers flooding in. It is about realization of being, of Wisdom rather than intellectual understanding. Remember silence is only one half of what we are and is not the goal.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Jonesboy

[Still_Waters]

23 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Yes, I read it.  But, in many ways it highlights our same disagreement about the mountain coming back again or not.  None of the masters would really classify as what I would call a true master. The problem with the story is that is all about the master, and not the capacity of the student.  The first master did nothing and was incapable of helping the student even after days of him sitting there.  A true master both "radiates" and then also teaches to the level of capacity of the student. In the story, the student felt nothing (and hence the master was not radiating), and also the master made no effort to help at the level of capacity of the student.  So what this story says is that the first master is an astral level teacher that has not yet realized the "light" and so is not yet radiating the truth. Additionally, is still ego based as he/she is not willing to work at more physical layers of existence. 

 

A true master teaches/transmits to the capacity of the student, not the other way around. A true master also "radiates" beyond mind (and mind to mind communication) and directly shares presence/space. The first part of Chapter 27 of the Tao Te Ching describes this well...

 

TWENTY-SEVEN

A good walker leaves no tracks;

A good speaker makes no slips;

A good reckoner needs no tally.

A good door needs no lock,

Yet no one can open it.

Good binding requires no knots,

Yet no one can loosen it.

Therefore the wise take care of everyone And abandon no one.

They take care of all things And abandon nothing.

This is called “following the light.”

...

 

The wise abandon no one... 

I fully understand what you are saying regarding your concept of a "true master" teaching at the level of the student. I once thought exactly the same way.  Nisargadatta Maharaj once said that "there are numerous primary teachers to teach the alphabet". Students will naturally be drawn to the level of teaching best suited to them, as in the story that we are discussing. The student clearly belonged with Master C, while Master C correctly pointed out that purification is absolutely necessary for a student to be able to proceed to a Master such as Master A. (It's almost like a student expecting a teacher in a PhD course in Quantum Physics to bring the level of the class down to the level of a novice student. That student clearly must first go to some preliminary classes on the subject.)

 

I can most assuredly relate to your dilemma as, many years ago, I went to see Sri Chinmoy in person in New York City. He did not speak but sat there in complete silence. At that point in time, I required further purification and could not clear the mind completely of thoughts and concepts. I got nothing out of the session and never went back. (Whether Sri Chinmoy was a "true master" or not is irrelevant for purposes of this discussion; that session was completely unfulfilling for me as silent sessions are probably similarly unfulfilling to you.) Many years later, after significant purification had taken place, I was fortunate to be in the presence of more than one "Master A" types  ("true masters" in my opinion) during which the silent teaching was indeed far superior to anything I had experienced before. (I described what takes place in these silent sessions in another post, so it does not seem necessary to repeat that here.)

 

I will, however, share another intermediate story that took place right here in NYC with a "homeless" black man, a "Master B" type who did not reveal himself for two years after our first meeting. I met him in Grand Central Station on Thanksgiving evening many many years ago. There was something very special about his energy and I was drawn to him for some inexplicable reason. I offered to buy him something to eat and he graciously accepted. I paid the bill, patted myself on the back for the good deed (ego, ego, ego), and left. For the next two years, I kept running into this man at Grand Central Station, at St. Francis of Assisi Church, or sometimes on the street. I always took him out to lunch/dinner and would talk to him as good-deeders (ego,ego,ego) often do. Sometimes, he would ask an apparent "dumb" question that left me thinking afterwards that it wasn't so "dumb" after all. Sometimes, he would make an apparently "dumb" statement that similarly was not so "dumb" and left me pondering afterwards. Finally, after about two years, he revealed himself in a very shocking manner. I had just walked out of St. Francis of Assissi during a sermon which did not resonate well with me. He was standing in the vestibule so I naturally took him out to lunch. While we were eating, my thoughts (yes, thoughts, NOT words) wandered to the sermon with questions. All of a sudden, he directly answered the first question quite profoundly. I was stunned but discarded it as a "coincidence". It then happened a second time, a third time, and then a fourth time. It was suddenly very clear that this was not a "coincidence" and I stopped thinking altogether and just stared incredulously at him. He simply responded, "Isn't it obvious that people can read each other's minds?" He then proceeded to counsel me on spiritual unfolding as if he had known me for my entire life and was aware of everything in my psyche. It was sensitive and not threatening at all. Since I had known him for two years already, I asked why he hadn't spoken to me like that before. He answered that I was not even at a point where he could discuss basics with me. (Ego took a big hit there. LOL) Wanting to continue the dialogue, I offered to take him home that evening but he refused. I offered to give him my phone number so he could call collect at any time. He refused. He did say, however, that whenever I needed him he would be there. True to his word, for the next 7 years, he manifested seemingly out of nowhere whenever I was doing things that were "less than noble" to put it mildly. LOL Like Master B in the story, he would speak in few words but they were penetrating words that boggled my mind.

 

Our parting was unusual as he suddenly announced on one encounter that I wouldn't be seeing him any more. I was upset and wondered whether I had done something wrong. He simply replied that his work with me was done and that another teacher would come to take his place. (This proved to be true.) He then hugged me and proceeded to walk away. I couldn't let go so I followed him down the street and was only a couple of steps behind him as he turned the corner. I then turned the corner only seconds after he did, and there was no one there. I never saw him again, as he had stated, but another teacher did come to take his place.

 

What I am saying is that there are various levels of teachers and we are naturally drawn to teachers best suited to our needs and temperaments AND level of purification. As Nisargadatta Maharaj also said, the realized ones tend to speak less and often communicate in utter silence. That has been my experience. No longer do I have sustained interest in complicated theories expressed in inadequate words. Such theories, while consistent within themselves, are nonetheless interesting/entertaining and I definitely do indulge. I learn from all --- even those who talk a lot and quote from the various scriptures. However, more often than not now, I gravitate towards those who speak less or communicate in complete and utter silence as well as those who can describe from direct experience the process whereby they enter the stillness in which all things are revealed. All the rest is talk --- albeit helpful at times --- but just talk.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Still_Waters

[Still_Waters]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Thank you Still Waters,

 

I will say that my experience is much different than what you have described. Much like Jeff described earlier, it is the Master that radiates and it is that, which takes one to deeper levels of silence to deeper states of being. A sharing of Oneness through the direct transmission of the Masters being.

 

To me it isn't about thoughts arising and then the answers flooding in. It is about realization of being, of Wisdom rather than intellectual understanding. Remember silence is only one half of what we are and is not the goal.

It was difficult to describe what I experienced in words. It was the best I could do. It has to be experienced to be understood.

 

It is definitely NOT intellectual understanding. It is definitely beyond the realm of thoughts, as you indicated, and that is a characteristic of the Buddhist jhanas after the first jhana. It is, as another poster once wrote, "knowing without thinking". Once again, one gets bogged down in words. The key is that what I was pondering was resolved in some indescribable way without thoughts.

 

Before my teacher left the earth plane, I recalled asking her a question. She looked at me for a long time before responding, "You're an experienced meditator. Meditate and all will be revealed." The revelations manifest in many different ways, but they do manifest.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Still_Waters

[Still_Waters]

21 hours ago, dwai said:

In my case, it was the touch of my master's index finger to my forehead. He literally kicked my butt through the (gateless) gate, so to speak. That being said, there are valuable nuances to what Jeff is writing too. It is always about both the teacher and the student. For instance, Jeff asked (and I roughly paraphrase)  "why was Master A not able to help the student? Indeed, if he really was a powerful master, he should have had the ability to influence even beginners/less advanced students!" 

 

I think the answer might lie in whether the student was able to grasp what was being transmitted by Master A in silence. In Jeff's tradition, the teacher can "feed" the student, but still the student needs to be prepared...open at the heart level first  - I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong here. This is what I call purification of the mind (which will progressively open the chakras - which happens whether one is using raja yoga, bhakti yoga, jnana yoga or karma yoga). Typically in order for jnana yoga to work, some preliminary work needs to happen, which will result in what is called antahkaranashuddhi (or purification of the mind -  ego - intellect - memory store complex) . Those could be in the form of (one or various combinations of) raja, karma, bhakti yoga. When the work is sufficiently done, the heart opens up, and is able to receive the transmission. 

 

Thanks and likewise - I'm only discovering your posts now but I do like what i read.

It is reported that Ramakrishna similarly touched Vivikenanda and, in that manner, gave him a glimpse of what it's like to have one's butt kicked through the gateless gate (using your terminology).

 

I agree with your assessment that "the answer might lie in whether the student was able to grasp what was being transmitted by Master A in silence." I think that I was alluding to that in noting the importance of the purification process in making us receptive to receive the transmission.

 

My sense is that we are writing is largely on the same wavelength.

 

I too can relate to what Jeff is writing since I once wanted words, words, and more words with explanations. it fed my ego and my intellect. (As Pir Vilayat Khan once said of the intellect and the ego, they are very important until they are no longer needed.)  I too wanted teachers who could come down to my level immediately as needed.Things change with time. Like the proverbial chicken trying to peck its way out of the self-limiting  shell, the mother chicken (guru) watches patiently until it sees a breakthrough opportunity and then pecks at the weak point in the shell as the breakthrough happens quite suddenly and all is revealed.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Still_Waters

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, Still_Waters said:

Like the proverbial chicken trying to peck its way out of the self-limiting  shell, the mother chicken (guru) watches patiently until it sees a breakthrough opportunity and then pecks at the weak point in the shell as the breakthrough happens quite suddenly and all is revealed.

That's a beautiful analogy! 

[3bob]

Indeed, and that which is revealed needs no qualifications, additions or subtractions for it is the same.

[Still_Waters]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

That's a beautiful analogy! 

Thank you, dwai !

[Still_Waters]

On 12/9/2018 at 3:54 PM, dwai said:

Some sages have an uncanny ability to transmit the truth (even in words). I think/IME it is because the written/studied word works at the subtle level (madhyama), where as words verbalized without presence mainly work at the gross level (vaikhari). 

 

Reminds me of an old story I had heard. Once a sincere student goes to an old master reputed to the best, who has only 3-4 students sitting around him in silence. Not a word is spoken. The student sits for a few days but gets frustrated and leaves to go the master who is reputed to be second best, who has 10-15 students sitting around him and they all are doing some yogic practices with minimal words being uttered. The student spends a few more days here and finally, sufficiently frustrated in his ability to get the answers he was seeking, he goes to the third best master. Upon reaching there he sees hundreds of students and the master is preaching the truths, expounding on the sutras for hours on end. Student finds himself being very happy. After a few days he approaches the master and says “master, it looks like you are not getting the credit you deserve. When I was asking for references to great masters, I was told you are only third best in the land, the other two masters A & B are considered best and second best respectively! How unfair...I visited them both before coming to you, and i found your teachings to be most meaningful. Please master, tell me how I can help you remedy this gross injustice!”

To that the master C replied .. “what did you see when you went to master A?”

student replied “he wasn’t teaching anything, just sitting quietly and smiling!”

 

master C asked “what about master B?”

 

student replied “he was just teaching some meditation and yogic techniques and using very few words!”

 

To that master C replied “ my dear student, how I wish I was able to teach like masters A and B.  They are both at a higher level than me, and so, master B is able to teach what I can convey with hours of lectures with his presence along with just simple statements and meditative techniques, while master A doesn’t even need to say anything, his mere presence is all it takes for the teachings to be transmitted! You my dear student were not prepared for masters A or B, and that’s why you couldn’t benefit from their teachings.”

 

student retorted “ so why where there only a handful of students with each of these masters, while you have hundreds?”

 

master C replied “that’s because most of the students are not qualified for the other masters’ teachings yet. They have to attain a degree of purification of the mind to comprehend what they teach. So they come to me, as I give them material in a way that will help their minds grasp. It is a longer path.” 

 

 

I love this story so much that I actually posted it verbatim in its entirety without comment on another site (www.spiritualforums.org) while giving you complete credit for being the source of the story. It's awesome and thought-provoking to many while being very clear to those who have met a "Master B" and a "Master A".

 

Thanks again for sharing this wonderful, illuminating story.