On the nature of creation - Ramana Maharshi

[3bob]

speaking of masters, some that are renunciates, like  monks, nuns, hermits, etc. besides them not being of the world  many of them are just barely in it per their practices.  Yet the lives of householders and various tattva's are often labeled as illusion, illusion that they are practicing escaping from even though same supports them...

 

comments?  

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by 3bob

[dwai]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

speaking of masters, some that are renunciates, like  monks, nuns, hermits, etc. besides them not being of the world  many of them are just barely in it per their practices.  Yet the lives of householders and various tattva's are often labeled as illusion, illusion that they are practicing escaping from even though same supports them...

 

comments?  

 

Illusion is an incorrect translation based on its intended meaning. Unreal in this context means something that is impermanent and not independently existent. A more "user-friendly" option to consider is "transactional reality" - that which is always dependent on something "else" for existence. That which it is dependent on "awareness" is called "absolute reality". 

[3bob]

anyway, back to the masters story: It seems that master A can also act as master B and C if needed or as moved to be.  They could also wash dishes and "chop wood and carry water" as or if needed.  (thus along the lines of, "High virtue is non- virtuous; therefore it has virtue.." from the TTC. 38) 

 

for things can get very dicey if we mount a master on a pedestal of our own making.  (and far worse if it a pedestal of their own making)

Edited December 13, 2018 by 3bob

[3bob]

22 hours ago, dwai said:

Illusion is an incorrect translation based on its intended meaning. Unreal in this context means something that is impermanent and not independently existent. A more "user-friendly" option to consider is "transactional reality" - that which is always dependent on something "else" for existence. That which it is dependent on "awareness" is called "absolute reality". 

 

we've been down this road often...anyway it seems that your last sentence above could be transposed around somewhat?

[dwai]

2 hours ago, 3bob said:

anyway, back to the masters story: It seems that master A can also act as master B and C if needed or as moved to be.  They could also wash dishes and "chop wood and carry water" as or if needed.  (thus along the lines of, "High virtue is non- virtuous; therefore it has virtue.." from the TTC. 38) 

 

for things can get very dicey if we mount a master on a pedestal of our own making.  (and far worse if it a pedestal of their own making)

Why not? 

 

Ramana Maharshi was a case in point. His presence and silence awoke some seekers and for others he did commentaries and expounded on various texts. 

 

Ramana said that a few seekers are like gun powder, just the spark of presence is enough to light them up. Some more are like wood and you have to light a kindling and wait for them to “catch  fire”, and most are like wet wood, so they first have to dry in the heat of a blazing fire (or under the sun) until they are dry enough to burn. 

 

(The above is from my memory, so not a direct quote). 

 

Imho, the student would have eventually awakened simply by sitting in Master A's presence, but he didn't have patience, didn't have a mentor who could guide him in that way. That said, we must remember that stories like these are meant to make us think and ponder, and aren't necessarily providing any authoritative standards wrt. students or masters.

Edited December 13, 2018 by dwai

[3bob]

"why not?".  Why not what?  Since it sounds like you are mostly agreeing with me?  Btw, I'd say master A has no choice since he has no ego to choose with - thus the Spirit determines their choice or action. (as an A, B, C,  or ditch digger as needed)

[dwai]

14 minutes ago, 3bob said:

"why not?".  Why not what?  Since it sounds like you are mostly agreeing with me?  Btw, I'd say master A has no choice since he has no ego to choose with - thus the Spirit determines their choice or action. (as an A, B, C,  or ditch digger as needed)

 Yes I am in agreement with you. It was meant to be "your point is very valid". 

[Still_Waters]

On 12/12/2018 at 2:28 PM, dwai said:

Illusion is an incorrect translation based on its intended meaning. Unreal in this context means something that is impermanent and not independently existent. A more "user-friendly" option to consider is "transactional reality" - that which is always dependent on something "else" for existence. That which it is dependent on "awareness" is called "absolute reality". 

 

Excellent point ! What more can one add to it ! One can only repeat it: "Unreal in this context means something that is impermanent and not independently existent."

[Jonesboy]

Isn't that a Buddhist explanation on emptiness?

 

Can anyone show me where Ramana used it in that manner?

[Spotless]

Just a side note:

Edgar Cayce would not have refered to himself as a “Christian Mystic”.

 

He was known as the “Sleeping Prophet” and was completely unaware of what he was saying and dictating while asleep. 

 

When a doctor started asking him questions while under that were related to esoteric areas and not healing remedies he became livid and was actually concerned if “ the devil was rearing it’s head” when he heard what had come out of his mouth.

 

It was very contrary to the “Christian” teaching he had been teaching. However - once the can was open he decided to ask at the behest of those he was angry at if the sleeping speaker could elaborate more on the seemingly contrarian ideas and slowly but surely he could see a very very different picture from that resembling the “Christianity” he had been teaching.

 

It was a very big deal when he started breaking the news to his own family because it parted so drastically from typical “Christian” mythology. Also a great deal of the information was not related to Christian stories but Egyptian and general esoteric traditions from India.

 

As far as a moniker like Mystic - Edgar would have been the first to laugh at that. He was a humble and grateful man who had gifts as a channel that came through him during total sleep in which he was unaware.

 

He was “Christian” - he read a version of the Bible once every year for every year that he lived. 

 

“There is a River” is one of the finest books written on his life and as a book chronicling what it can be like feeling ones way in the spontaneous happenings of gifts of this sort.

 

It is a beautiful book. 

 

 

[3bob]

2 hours ago, Spotless said:

Just a side note:

Edgar Cayce would not have refered to himself as a “Christian Mystic”.

 

He was known as the “Sleeping Prophet” and was completely unaware of what he was saying and dictating while asleep. 

 

When a doctor started asking him questions while under that were related to esoteric areas and not healing remedies he became livid and was actually concerned if “ the devil was rearing it’s head” when he heard what had come out of his mouth.

 

It was very contrary to the “Christian” teaching he had been teaching. However - once the can was open he decided to ask at the behest of those he was angry at if the sleeping speaker could elaborate more on the seemingly contrarian ideas and slowly but surely he could see a very very different picture from that resembling the “Christianity” he had been teaching.

 

It was a very big deal when he started breaking the news to his own family because it parted so drastically from typical “Christian” mythology. Also a great deal of the information was not related to Christian stories but Egyptian and general esoteric traditions from India.

 

As far as a moniker like Mystic - Edgar would have been the first to laugh at that. He was a humble and grateful man who had gifts as a channel that came through him during total sleep in which he was unaware.

 

He was “Christian” - he read a version of the Bible once every year for every year that he lived. 

 

“There is a River” is one of the finest books written on his life and as a book chronicling what it can be like feeling ones way in the spontaneous happenings of gifts of this sort.

 

It is a beautiful book. 

 

 

 

Also Cayce's take on the Book of Revelations is interesting, and far from fundamentalist Christianity.

[3bob]

On 12/13/2018 at 11:22 AM, dwai said:

Why not? 

 

Ramana Maharshi was a case in point. His presence and silence awoke some seekers and for others he did commentaries and expounded on various texts. 

 

Ramana said that a few seekers are like gun powder, just the spark of presence is enough to light them up. Some more are like wood and you have to light a kindling and wait for them to “catch  fire”, and most are like wet wood, so they first have to dry in the heat of a blazing fire (or under the sun) until they are dry enough to burn. 

 

(The above is from my memory, so not a direct quote). 

 

Imho, the student would have eventually awakened simply by sitting in Master A's presence, but he didn't have patience, didn't have a mentor who could guide him in that way. That said, we must remember that stories like these are meant to make us think and ponder, and aren't necessarily providing any authoritative standards wrt. students or masters.

 

more along the lines of seekers and making preparations:  https://www.swami-krishnananda.org/upanishad/upan_03.html

[Spotless]

Regarding the entities that spoke through Cayce - everything was far from ALL mainstream Christianity - not merely Fundamentalists with whom many mainstream Christian leaders differ.

[3bob]

39 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Regarding the entities that spoke through Cayce - everything was far from ALL mainstream Christianity - not merely Fundamentalists with whom many mainstream Christian leaders differ.

 

I'd say lots of it but not everything,  for there is a lot of KJ Bible sounding text that came through.

[Still_Waters]

7 hours ago, Spotless said:

Just a side note:

Edgar Cayce would not have refered to himself as a “Christian Mystic”.

 

He was known as the “Sleeping Prophet” and was completely unaware of what he was saying and dictating while asleep. 

 

When a doctor started asking him questions while under that were related to esoteric areas and not healing remedies he became livid and was actually concerned if “ the devil was rearing it’s head” when he heard what had come out of his mouth.

 

It was very contrary to the “Christian” teaching he had been teaching. However - once the can was open he decided to ask at the behest of those he was angry at if the sleeping speaker could elaborate more on the seemingly contrarian ideas and slowly but surely he could see a very very different picture from that resembling the “Christianity” he had been teaching.

 

It was a very big deal when he started breaking the news to his own family because it parted so drastically from typical “Christian” mythology. Also a great deal of the information was not related to Christian stories but Egyptian and general esoteric traditions from India.

 

As far as a moniker like Mystic - Edgar would have been the first to laugh at that. He was a humble and grateful man who had gifts as a channel that came through him during total sleep in which he was unaware.

 

He was “Christian” - he read a version of the Bible once every year for every year that he lived. 

 

“There is a River” is one of the finest books written on his life and as a book chronicling what it can be like feeling ones way in the spontaneous happenings of gifts of this sort.

 

It is a beautiful book. 

 

 

Once again, words become a barrier to descriptions.

 

It is a fact that Edgar Cayce read the entire Bible once a year for every year in his life ... with a little catching up for the child years when he couldn't read.

 

Also, as you duly pointed out, Cayce did have at least some revelations that were in conflict with his traditional Christian beliefs that he taught in Bible class. He reconciled himself with those revelations and did explore the traditions of other cultures as you also said. I agree with you completely that he "parted so drastically from typical Christian mythology".

 

Perhaps, I should not have put a label on Cayce as his teachings and readings speak for themselves.

 

I am familiar with the book, "There is a River". Are you familiar with the excellent documentary on the life of the "Sleeping Prophet"? (One could argue that even the word "Prophet" doesn't apply since many of his "prophecies" did not come to fruition. That is mentioned in the documentary whose link I am providing below.)

 

How would you describe the Cayce phenomenon as well as Cayce himself ?

 

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Still_Waters