True Yin and True Yang

[Bindi]

I’d like to look at the Awakening to Reality Poem #10 which according to Pregadio’s commentary is about “True Yin and True Yang that control one another and join together to generate the elixir.” I’m hoping that others might have some thoughts on this.

 

Poem 10

 

Hold True Lead firmly

and seek with intention;

do not let time

easily slip by.

Just let the earthly po-soul

seize the Mercury in the Vermilion,

and you will have the celestial hun-soul by itself

controlling the Metal in the Water.

 

One can say that when the Way is lofty,

Dragon and Tiger are subdued,

and it may be said that when Virtue is hefty,

gods and demons are restrained.

Once you know that your longevity

equals that of Heaven and Earth,

troubles and vexations have no way

to rise to your heart.

[Bindi]

Working from Pregadio's commentary, True Lead is True Yang within Yin. The first few lines made simpler then say 

 

Hold True Yang within Yin firmly

and seek with intention;

do not let time

easily slip by.

 

It's hard to know what True Yang is, so to me the only thing that can be done initially is to seek what is Yin (as it contains True Yang), and this quite deliberately and even urgently. According to Zhang Boduan, intention is all that is needed. 

 

 

 

[Nintendao]

Bindi you beautiful bum! What the heck have you done? I'm just making some of this up as i go, but here are the things that danced to mind.

 

Hold True Lead (True Yang within Yin) firmly.

The initial singularity, the very first Thing, appeared as they say, of and within No-thing. The supreme denseness of Lead only barely illustrates what really is infinitely dense, this thing. Every conceivable particle, superimposed and inseparably entangled, prior to expansion, and differentiation.

and seek with intention;

Somehow could I will consciousness to harmonize with the very vibration of the wave-particles which carry it along, themselves being endlessly oscillating echoes of the Big Bang? If intention is truly all that's needed, then just "ask and you shall receive."

 

do not let time easily slip by.
If I were to hold completely still, some could say I am wasting time, but I'm actually playing a trick on it. There is way more movement going on than my slow little thoughts would ever be able to keep up with. The more quiet I am able to become, the more i can feel electrons wiggling around, which maybe are just enjoying the bumpy ride at bazillion miles per hour = Earth rotation + solar orbit + galactic orbit + Laniakea current.

 

Just let the earthly po-soul (sensory perceptions)
seize the Mercury in the Vermilion,

Mercury: a deliciously shiny liquid refined from Cinnabar, a vermilion red stone that was sometimes found down water wells. Here is a picture of such a stone (represented as a dot) being dug up out of a well. It is pronounced "dan," as in dantian.

丹

 

and you will have the celestial hun-soul by itself

Immortal self will have forgot that mortal self was born?

 

controlling the Metal in the Water.

Ideation freed to manifest structure within a purely energetic realm?

 

One can say that when the Way is lofty,
Dragon and Tiger are subdued,

If entirety of being is homogeneously aligned with eternity, then neither side will seek to overpower the other.

and it may be said that when Virtue is hefty,
gods and demons are restrained.

If I only rely on a savior to absolve myself of sin, I'm also opening myself up to trickery by the opposite team. Don't buy in. Don't sell out. If Buddha invites you to a party, slap him.

Once you know that your longevity
equals that of Heaven and Earth,

"We're made of star stuff." - Carl Sagan

troubles and vexations have no way to rise...

A typical vexation about the initial singularity of Big Bang model is, "How can you get something out of nothing?" I will attempt to answer this by examining how to get nothing out of something. Entropy. The inevitable decay of ordered systems back into chaos. Even the left over clumps and sputters are themselves subject to further entropy. Imagine this process carried out to its ultimate resolution, all forces neutralized, and all particles reduced to the single most absolute fundamental constituent, distributed completely uniformly. Is this uniformity suddenly the most ordered thing that has ever existed? Everything is already everywhere, all at once. There is only one. Singularity.

 

...to your heart.

Having seen all this take place, a being who actually exists completely outside of the dimensions binding our universe, then becomes lonely. A single teardrop falls upon the infinitely smooth surface, and the rippling ensues anew.

 

I must now "deliberately and urgently seek what is Yin."

Quiet,

Stillness,

Settling.

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

  seek what is Yin (as it contains True Yang), and this quite deliberately and even urgently. According to Zhang Boduan, intention is all that is needed. 

yin and intention kinda clash

[Marblehead]

44 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

yin and intention kinda clash

I consider them to be opposites.

 

[Bindi]

53 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

yin and intention kinda clash

 

Would you prefer 'seek True Yang with intention', or do you dislike the concept of intention in general?  

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

Pregadio's interpretation of the next four lines:

 

The “earthly po-soul” is True Yang found within Yin; it is the precelestial Original Essence of which the physical body is a Yin manifestation. Analogously, the “celestial hun-soul” is True Yin found within Yang. It is the precelestial Original Spirit of which the thinking mind is a Yang manifestation.

The “Mercury in the Vermillion” is True Mercury, or True Yin within Yang. It is found within Fire, which is represented in alchemy by native cinnabar. The “Metal in the Water” is True Lead, or True Yang within Yin. In the system of the five agents, Metal is found within Water.

In the post-celestial world, the Yang principle tends to rise to Heaven and vanish above, causing the loss of True Yin; the Yin principle tends to descend into the Earth and be wasted below, causing the loss of True Yang. To avoid this, the pre-celestial po-soul (True Yang) should control the Yin principle (the Mercury in the Vermillion), and the pre-celestial hun-soul (True Yin) should restrain the Yang principle (the Metal in the Water).

 

And my simplification from this of Zhang Boduan's lines:

 

Just let the (True Yang found within Yin/original essence)

seize the (True Yin within Yang/pre-celestial Original Spirit),

and you will have the (True Yin within Yang/pre-celestial Original Spirit),

controlling the (Yang principle/?).

 

Original Spirit should control original essence, True Yin should control True Yang. 

 

One line of Pregadio's commentary I found particularly interesting was that "It is the pre-celestial Original Spirit of which the thinking mind is a Yang manifestation." True Yin controls the thinking mind. What does True Yang control? According to Pregadio, True Yang created the physical body, so True Yang controls matter? 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Bindi

[Marblehead]

While I don't suggest tht I know anything about alchemy, I had no problem with reading the above.  But that's too much thinking for me to get involved in.

 

[Jeff]

42 minutes ago, Bindi said:

....

 

In the post-celestial world, the Yang principle tends to rise to Heaven and vanish above, causing the loss of True Yin; the Yin principle tends to descend into the Earth and be wasted below, causing the loss of True Yang. To avoid this, the pre-celestial po-soul (True Yang) should control the Yin principle (the Mercury in the Vermillion), and the pre-celestial hun-soul (True Yin) should restrain the Yang principle (the Metal in the Water).

 

And my simplification from this of Zhang Boduan's lines:

 

Just let the (True Yang found within Yin/original essence)

seize the (True Yin within Yang/pre-celestial Original Spirit),

and you will have the (True Yin within Yang/pre-celestial Original Spirit),

controlling the (Yang principle/?).

 

Original Spirit should control original essence, True Yin should control True Yang. 

 

One line of Pregadio's commentary I found particularly interesting was that "It is the pre-celestial Original Spirit of which the thinking mind is a Yang manifestation." True Yin controls the thinking mind. What does True Yang control? According to Pregadio, True Yang created the physical body, so True Yang controls matter? 

 

 

Very well said. In a way True Yang does control True Yin, but more like defines and creates form and structure, while True Yin receives and kind of gives a place for it to be born. So rather than True Yin controlling the thinking mind, it more contains (or gives space to) thinking mind. True yang does not create matter by itself, but gives the form/definition of it.  At the broadest polarity, True Yang “binds” energy giving rise to form/matter, while True Yin “unbinds” which is how it can restrain the Yang principle as you described above.

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Would you prefer 'seek True Yang with intention', or do you dislike the concept of intention in general?  

oh no, i love intention

 

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

Hold True Lead firmly

and seek with intention;

except if you already holding something firmly, what is that you are seeking with that intention?

[Bindi]

On 26/11/2018 at 9:45 PM, Taoist Texts said:

oh no, i love intention

 

except if you already holding something firmly, what is that you are seeking with that intention?

 

Good question, is it a problem with the translation, or an internal inconsistency? Do you have access to the original Chinese?

[Taoist Texts]

56 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Good question, is it a problem with the translation, or an internal inconsistency? Do you have access to the original Chinese?

of course i do.

http://www.shixiu.net/dujing/daojiaojingdian/1020.html

Pregadio is a brilliant scholar but...

 

that line just says 'you better seek true lead with diligence, not wasting any time...'. There is no 'intention' or "holding firmly" there.

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course i do.

http://www.shixiu.net/dujing/daojiaojingdian/1020.html

Pregadio is a brilliant scholar but...

 

that line just says 'you better seek true lead with diligence, not wasting any time...'. There is no 'intention' or "holding firmly" there.

 

Okay, I'm more than happy to use this translation, 'you better seek true lead (which is within yin) with diligence, not wasting any time.' 

 

Assuming we agree that True Yang is what must be sought, how should it be sought? My suggestion was by first seeking Yin because that seems more reachable initially than True Yang, is it Yin and Yang conjoining that lead to True Yin and True Yang? I think that is the order, True Yin and True Yang are unavailable to our conscious mind, hidden in Yin (matter) and Yang (mind), and must be revealed via a process which first comprehends Yin and Yang, and when Yin and Yang conjoin a mechanism is created due to that conjoining that allows True Yin and True Yang to be revealed and thus to conjoin. 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Bindi

[Bindi]

One can say that when the Way is lofty,

Dragon and Tiger are subdued,

and it may be said that when Virtue is hefty,

gods and demons are restrained.

Once you know that your longevity

equals that of Heaven and Earth,

troubles and vexations have no way

to rise to your heart.

 

Subduing Dragon and Tiger, this refers to Yin and Yang, but is the meaning Yin and Yang or True Yin and True Yang? I feel both levels have to conjoin anyway in the end, ie. Yin and Yang and then True Yin and True Yang, but it would be interesting to know which Dragon and Tiger refer to. 

 

And why subduing??

 

Pregadio states "True Yin and True Yang join together to generate the elixir." If this is true then the elixir is a very late achievement, because True Yin and True Yang joining together is the goal of neidan, not the process. The process then is seeking True Yang with diligence, and not wasting any time in doing it. 

 

 

edit: I found Pregadio's answer "The Dragon stands for True Yin within Yang, also symbolised by the trigram Li, and the Tiger stands for True Yang within Yin, also symbolised by the inner line of Kan. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Bindi

[Bindi]

56 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

seeking true lead with dilgence = turning the light arround

 

I think seeking true lead with diligence is turning qi around, not light, reversing the natural downward flow of qi, as is shown in 

the Nei Jing Tu. Pregadio explains this reversal here. 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Bindi

[Bindi]

19 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

 

Yes, that is how I found it. But let me redefine yin in this context as stillness.

As in, no thoughts, no ego, no control, no knowledge, no understanding, no desire,  no seeking, no intent, no meditation, no meditator, no concepts, no philosophy, no sense perceptions.

No attachments, as there is nothing left to be attached to. 

Freed from attachments, there is nothing left to see for awareness other than itself.

Once you've become familiar with it, the stillness is no longer necessary tho'. 

 

The synonyms I have for yin are chaotic, darkness, innocence, and ultimately and esoterically I suspect the ability to manipulate matter. I don't see yin as basically the opposite of activity, though of course I recognise that your interpretation is likely the standard one. 

 

This makes my sense of a return as being to a condition that needs to be brought into order via the input from yang.

[Bindi]

10 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

 

Same phrase, different tradition, different meaning. 

Perhaps qi and light are synonymous in the final analysis, but a lot has to happen before that point. Perhaps qi that has undergone an alchemical process might be equivalent to light.

 

10 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

It is my understanding that those energetic aspects are a natural byproduct of spiritual progress. 

Those energetic arts are attempts to imitate them. 

I believe that they are mentioned in scriptures for the sake of giving milestones. 

Outsiders that didn't get the esoteric meaning tried to imitate them, and that's how traditions and their texts like the the one pregadio translated came to be. 

But they are all ego driven, and therefore won't reach high level. 

 

Yes I agree to an extent the energetic aspects are a natural byproduct of spiritual progress, which can be measured by a person's freedom from attachments, but your end result is that "there is nothing left to see for awareness other than itself," and I don't think this is the aim of the alchemical process. 

 

Ultimately, essence should be able to be projected, not as an ego accomplishment, but as the natural end result of Original Essence and Spirit conjoining. (I may be wrong about my use of words here, as I am not fully conversant with neidan terminology.)

[Bindi]

8 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

 

Never said that. I just answered your question on how True Lead is to be found, based on my experience. 

 

My apologies for assuming this. What do you envisage the end result in your process being? 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Bindi

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Wuschel said:

 

Yes, that is how I found it.

Great. What 'it' is like?

[Bindi]

2 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

I don't know. 

I think those texts are all esoteric in nature, means I can only understand as much as I have already discovered inside myself. 

 

Fair enough. 

[Bindi]

2 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

 

Shiny. 

 

Yin is definitely dark though.

[Nintendao]

All this Yang within Yin mystery and intrigue! Aren't these old ass poems, about seeking out the hidden True Yang, mostly talking about the same thing? Namely kidney fire a.k.a the adrenals? Since the kidney so yin, and the adrenal sits on top of it, then you take some metaphor from nature world like "In order to find the True fire, you must go to the bottom of the sea." Today we know about pelagic magma vents or whatever but i guess that's a less romantic way to phrase it. Anyway, usually what we think of adrenaline and cortisol, we know they are steroid hormones;  they're designed for causing some explosive yang shit right? But the secret move is you burn it real slow, and you can do all kinds of useful tasks in there. So how to install a carburetor between your kidneys? Sit up straight and take long deep breaths is a good start. Then how you get the gland to secrete the fuel? INTENTION. Hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis is a real thing, and it's designed for more than just getting angry at people.  

[freeform]

6 hours ago, Nintendao said:

adrenaline and cortisol, we know they are steroid hormones;  they're designed for causing some explosive yang shit right? 

 

I think it’s counterproductive to equate the very specific alchemical terms with scientific understanding. It muddies the water and any understanding gleaned will be useless (and likely dangerous) for practice.

 

I wonder - what is the benefit of dissecting these texts?

Are you trying to find a map for practice?

Or a map for understanding?

Or are you already training in internal alchemy with a teacher who has gone through the process - and this is just the extra bit of study to understand the process intellectually?

[Marblehead]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Yin is definitely dark though.

We must then learn to not fear the dark, mustn't we?

 

[Nintendao]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

what is the benefit of dissecting these texts?

 

You ever see that kid, playing in the sandbox as it were, got some shiny new toys, and what's he do? Pick 'em up and bash 'em into each other! He won't tell you why he did that, just keeps laughing like a maniac.

 

(Really i am just all about offering perspectives, and secretly have the utmost respect, adoration, and yes, caution.)