anti-depression drugs??

[3bob]

anybody read Peter Breggins (MD) books about the dangers of anti-depressant drugs?  (and dangers of to fast of a withdrawal)

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by 3bob

[Kar3n]

I've not read the book, but anti-depressants were not helpful for me.

 

My mother passed away in a car accident. I had a very hard time coping with her death so I decided to see my MD at my husband and sister's urging. He prescribed Zoloft. I had not been and still am not keen on taking pharmaceutical drugs of may kind. I took the lower dose for 3 days. Two hours after taking the third pill, my exterminator, who I was expecting, knocked on the door and I was terrified. I froze. I did not open the door, instead I hit the floor. I waited for him to get started taking care of the outside and crawled like a combat soldier to my bedroom where I hid under the covers on my bed for hours.

 

To this day, 15 years later, I am still puzzled by it. I knew Greg. He'd been coming to my house the second Tuesday of every other month for 5 years. I kept telling myself there was nothing to be afraid of, but I was scared and my body would not move. 

 

I laugh about it now, but needless to say, I have never taken another anti-depressant. I coped with my mother's death much better and rather quickly after that experience. It was a real eye opener.

[liminal_luke]

I`m not familiar with Peter Breggin`s book but I`m no stranger to the anti-antidepressant point of view.  Holistic psychiatrist Kelly Brogan wrote A Mind of Your Own, which also details the dangers of antidepressants and presents her program to heal from depression (basically a paleo-esque diet).  https://kellybroganmd.com/ Functional medicine guru Chris Kessler blogs about how antidepressents are no more effective than placebos here, https://chriskresser.com/a-closer-look-at-antidepressants/.  

 

I`m a pretty hardcore opponent of psychiatric medicine generally, not just antidepressants, but my life circumstance has taught me that they have a place.  My partner is on multiple psych meds and they`ve been life savers.  Or perhaps I should say relationship-savers.  I don`t think we`d of been able to make it without him taking his pills.  We both hate that he has to take them but for him it`s the difference between a meaningful life with some happiness and  total misery.  

 

Your milage may vary.

[3bob]

thanks for the personal reply's of 1st hand experience  Karen and Luke.  I believe there have been several past and related topics posted at this site, I'm just not sure of when or where so I brought it back up.  The drug company advertisements on TV for anti-depressant related drugs blow my mind; they make it sound almost as normal as taking something like ibuprofen!  And more recently they are pushing a drug for TD (which is uncontrolled twitching or worse) which normally only happens after being on anti-depressants!  (as noted in Peter Breggins clinical studies)   Anyway I suggest that anyone being told to try anti-depressants or who is trying and get off them safely (or for their kids) to consider reading at least one of his books!    I make no medical claims and have no medical experience but he does.

[liminal_luke]

Just a nitpicky note. You mention that TD (tardive dyskinesia) happens after taking anti-depressants.  Perhaps there are some anti-depressants that cause this, but I think you mean anti-psychotics.  From what I`ve read tardive dyskinesia is a common side effect of anti-psychotics, though some of the more modern ones minimize the risk.   The commonly prescribed SSRI anti-depressants, like the Zoloft Kar3n mentioned, don`t cause tardive dyskinesia (but do have plenty of other side effects to watch out for).

Edited November 29, 2018 by liminal_luke

[rideforever]

Tangential ?
I heard one that depression often happens when a situation  requires you to be active but you choose to be passive.   Perhaps due to demoralisation or lack of inspiration

It's very important not to pour the cultural news media poison in your head, and instead pour inspiration.
I found Rhodiola Rhosea a good mild anti-depressant for a time, well tolerated and quite light but does something good.
Also I found BKF Heaven & Earth to be very good because it opens up energy into the head and depression can cause the head to energetically deteriorate.

[Chainikas]

I've been on anti-depresants and anti-psychotics. Please, don't ever consider taking these drugs and do everything to prevent others. I pray that this madness somehow stop.

[3bob]

8 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Just a nitpicky note. You mention that TD (tardive dyskinesia) happens after taking anti-depressants.  Perhaps there are some anti-depressants that cause this, but I think you mean anti-psychotics.  From what I`ve read tardive dyskinesia is a common side effect of anti-psychotics, though some of the more modern ones minimize the risk.   The commonly prescribed SSRI anti-depressants, like the Zoloft Kar3n mentioned, don`t cause tardive dyskinesia (but do have plenty of other side effects to watch out for).

 

thanks for the info, it has been awhile since I've read up on the various mind/brain altering drugs related to the topic. (I may have lumped some of them together which are sometimes are prescribed together)  A shrink had my daughter on what was imo. a dangerous chemical soup of drugs which produced very scary symptoms in her which had to be carefully and safely backed off from;   btw. it is  common that some shrinks don't back off on doses but increase them along with adding new and powerful ones that can can put a person in viscous cycles of more intrusive drug doses and mixtures in trying to counter the effects of one drug with another, for instance heavy duty drugs for sleep that can kill a person if taken incorrectly!  (we tend to skip or minimize the importance of warnings on drug labels, some of which include warnings of possible serious harm or even death!)

Edited November 29, 2018 by 3bob

[liminal_luke]

Awhile back I watched an interesting video about psychiatric medications.  Here`s what I remember...

 

Say you go to the doctor with symptoms of depression.  You may be told that your depression is a "chemical imbalance" -- perhaps a deficiency of the neurotransmitter serotonin -- and that you need an SSRI antidepressant (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) to increase the level of serotonin in your brain and bring your level back to normal.  This is bunk.

 

The truth is that psychiatric drugs like antidepressants simply have psychological effects, and a person could decide to take them or not depending on whether they liked those effects.  It`s more like alcohol.  Suppose you`re a socially inhibited person with a party to go to.  If you have a few drinks at the party it might loosen you up and make it easier for you to socialize.  Does that mean that you had an alcohol deficiency that you corrected with a few glasses of vodka-spiked punch? Obviously not. It`s just that alcohol changed your brain in a way that had some beneficial effects.  Of course alcohol also has effects that a person might not want.  

 

Psychiatric drugs are much the same.  They tend to have a bunch of different effects, some that a person might like and some that a person might not like.  One approach to thinking about these medications is to consider whether the constellation of effects of a given drug are desirable on balance.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by liminal_luke

[3bob]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Awhile back I watched an interesting video about psychiatric medications.  Here`s what I remember...

 

Say you go to the doctor with symptoms of depression.  You may be told that your depression is a "chemical imbalance" -- perhaps a deficiency of the neurotransmitter serotonin -- and that you need an SSRI antidepressant (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) to increase the level of serotonin in your brain and bring your level back to normal.  This is bunk.

 

The truth is that psychiatric drugs like antidepressants simply have psychological effects, and a person could decide to take them or not depending on whether they liked those effects.  It`s more like alcohol.  Suppose you`re a socially inhibited person with a party to go to.  If you have a few drinks at the party it might loosen you up and make it easier for you to socialize.  Does that mean that you had an alcohol deficiency that you corrected with a few glasses of vodka-spiked punch? Obviously not. It`s just that alcohol changed your brain in a way that had some beneficial effects.  Of course alcohol also has effects that a person might not want.  

 

Psychiatric drugs are much the same.  They tend to have a bunch of different effects, some that a person might like and some that a person might not like.  One approach to thinking about these medications is to consider whether the constellation of effects of a given drug are desirable on balance.

 

 

 

umm, one might also consider that using some of these drugs can be like playing Russian roulette with your brain/mind, for there are many documented cases (and resulting lawsuits which have been won) of people having their once ok brains chemically harmed or committing suicide after only being on certain drugs for short periods of time or others for longer periods, in any either case something no one would want!  

 

for instance:  

• Makers of antidepressant Paxil paid out $3 billion in fines for — among other misdeeds — illegally persuading doctors to prescribe the drug to children and teenagers despite internal evidence that it’s ineffective and can trigger suicidal thoughts in adolescents.

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by 3bob

[liminal_luke]

44 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

umm, one might also consider that using some of these drugs can be like playing Russian roulette with your brain/mind, for there are many documented cases (and resulting lawsuits which have been won) of people having their once ok brains chemically harmed or committing suicide after only being on certain drugs for short periods of time or others for longer periods, in any either case something no one would want!  

 

for instance:  

• Makers of antidepressant Paxil paid out $3 billion in fines for — among other misdeeds — illegally persuading doctors to prescribe the drug to children and teenagers despite internal evidence that it’s ineffective and can trigger suicidal thoughts in adolescents.

 

 

The question of whether or not to take any pharmaceutical drug -- not just the psychiatric ones -- is often a difficult one.  A few years back my mom had breast cancer.  She was adament about receiving only conventional care, chemotherapy and radiation and lots of it.  No acupuncture or herbs for her.  No fuzzy-wuzzy meditations or essential oils.  I`m her hippy-dippy son (my brother is an MD) and her staunchly allopathic approach didn`t fill me with joy.  But she got better and all is fine.  Lots of people do die from chemotherapy side effects though.  Lots of people also die from the side effects of not receiving chemo, too.  My moms decisions worked out for her and I`m glad about that.  In any case, it was her decision to make.  

 

Making decisions about treatment for depression isn`t so different.  Psychiatrist Kelly Brogan treats all her patients without using pharmaceuticals at all, and she`s reportedly quite successful at it.  She also puts people on a diet that doesn`t include pizza and doesn`t continue to see patients who refuse to comply.  Do you know how much pizza depressed people eat?  A lot.  Dr. Brogan must be tremendously persuasive because her patients eat saurkraut and go jogging and take up kundalini yoga.  Her treatment program is clearly preferable to Prozac but not every depressed person is willing.  Some just want to take a pill.

 

Taking psychiatric medication can be like playing russian roulette but so can not taking psychiatric medication.  I personally believe that these drugs are way overprescribed.  I also believe that some people genuinely need them.  What potential patients need is clear advise about all the treatment options and candid talk about the potential pitfalls and benefits of a given decision.  

Edited November 30, 2018 by liminal_luke

[KuroShiro]

21 hours ago, 3bob said:

anybody read Peter Breggins (MD) books about the dangers of anti-depressant drugs?  (and dangers of to fast of a withdrawal)

 

Everyone should stay away from them. Same with the high cholesterol drugs, antibiotic over-prescription. These 3 clearly show us that Western Medicine is sick.

You might also want to check out Dr. Kelly Brogan.

[3bob]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

The question of whether or not to take any pharmaceutical drug -- not just the psychiatric ones -- is often a difficult one.  A few years back my mom had breast cancer.  She was adament about receiving only conventional care, chemotherapy and radiation and lots of it.  No acupuncture or herbs for her.  No fuzzy-wuzzy meditations or essential oils.  I`m her hippy-dippy son (my brother is an MD) and her staunchly allopathic approach didn`t fill me with joy.  But she got better and all is fine.  Lots of people do die from chemotherapy side effects though.  Lots of people also die from the side effects of not receiving chemo, too.  My moms decisions worked out for her and I`m glad about that.  In any case, it was her decision to make.  

 

Making decisions about treatment for depression isn`t so different.  Psychiatrist Kelly Brogan treats all her patients without using pharmaceuticals at all, and she`s reportedly quite successful at it.  She also puts people on a diet that doesn`t include pizza and doesn`t continue to see patients who refuse to comply.  Do you know how much pizza depressed people eat?  A lot.  Dr. Brogan must be tremendously persuasive because her patients eat saurkraut and go jogging and take up kundalini yoga.  Her treatment program is clearly preferable to Prozac but not every depressed person is willing.  Some just want to take a pill.

 

Taking psychiatric medication can be like playing russian roulette but so can not taking psychiatric medication.  I personally believe that these drugs are way overprescribed.  I also believe that some people genuinely need them.  What potential patients need is clear advise about all the treatment options and candid talk about the potential pitfalls and benefits of a given decision.  

 

I don't agree Luke based on an MD's decades of direct observations and studies about  patients on these types of drugs and what has been revealed by his clinical and medical work with a great many those patients.  I hear a wait and see tolerant attitude in your position which you would probably not hold if you read:   "Toxic Psychiatry: Why Therapy, Empathy and Love Must Replace the Drugs, Electroshock, and Biochemical Theories of the "New Psychiatry"  Aug 15, 1994 by Peter R. Breggin M.D., (also in Kindle edition) which is one of his older books and is somewhat dated but still gives an incredible amount of medical and personal detail that would surely blow your mind and break your heart in hearing about those that have suffered and also died because of drugs prescribed along the lines we've been talking about.

  

[liminal_luke]

43 minutes ago, 3bob said:

 

I don't agree Luke based on an MD's decades of direct observations and studies about  patients on these types of drugs and what has been revealed by his clinical and medical work with a great many those patients.  I hear a wait and see tolerant attitude in your position which you would probably not hold if you read:   "Toxic Psychiatry: Why Therapy, Empathy and Love Must Replace the Drugs, Electroshock, and Biochemical Theories of the "New Psychiatry"  Aug 15, 1994 by Peter R. Breggin M.D., (also in Kindle edition) which is one of his older books and is somewhat dated but still gives an incredible amount of medical and personal detail that would surely blow your mind and break your heart in hearing about those that have suffered and also died because of drugs prescribed along the lines we've been talking about.

  

 

Oh 3bob, the stories I could tell you.  It`s funny to find myself appearing like an apologist for the pharmaceutical industry because by temperment and natural inclination I am anything but.  I`ve read some of the anti-psychiatry books and the arguments of their well-meaning authors are indeed convincing.  Still, I keep coming back to my own experience.

 

All I can tell you is that when my partner takes his meds he can go outside.  When he takes his meds he can order his own green tea at a restaurant.  He can get out of bed.  He can laugh and play and feel like life is not a "living hell."  Without meds none of those things are possible, and believe you me, we`ve tried.  

 

A few years back I tried to get him to go jogging in a park near where we lived.  I asked him how it felt just to be out in the sunshine walking with other people around, and he told me it was like being stuck with ten thousand needles.  Just walking was literally unbearable.  So much for the jogging idea.

 

I`ve looked long and hard for alternatives to medication.  He`s had neurofeedback, therapy, countless herbs, massage.  I`ve tried to cajole him to breath and meditate and do pushups.  I`m tried and I`ve tried and I`ve tried till I was in need of mental health help myself.  The only thing that has had a big and noticable impact has been medication.  For him, medication works.  I hope he doesn`t someday get tardive dyskinesia or diabetes or suffer some other malady as a result of his pills, but if he does I won`t feel it`s been a mistake.  Psychiatry has allowed him to have a life worth living and for that I`m grateful.

 

Your milage may, and probably will, vary.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by liminal_luke

[Fa Xin]

You have to also recognize that there are many different classes of drugs and side effects.  The category of "anti-depressants" includes many different types of medications, some more nasty than others.  And sometimes they are the only thing that helps.

 

That being said, they are quick to hand out pills and that's not right...  But that's reflective of the society we live in.  Everyone wants a quick fix, no one wants to do the hard work.

 

Is everyone aware they still do ECT? You might know it by it's name of "shock therapy"? It's still widely practiced.  It's a last resort and it has a long list of side effects... but it actually works for some patients. 

 

I think it comes down to the doctors being responsible, grounded human beings... or doctors that just don't give a shit (there are lots in both category).

 

 

[3bob]

 

a couple of  big medical questions: how did people become dependent on some of these drugs in the first place and why is it so many people are prescribed such addictive drugs that they may never be able to get off of??  (which If I remember correctly experiments with them started around the 50's, before that they didn't exist or were not used)  No one is born with a need for drugs along these lines;  perhaps unless they have an organic brain disease at birth or very unlikely develop such which is extremely rare to almost non-existent  (I don't mean cancer) and even then with the complexity of the brain being what it is there is very limited knowledge on how such people (besides people without organic brain disease) would be effected by these types of drugs.  (as far as I've studied)  The  myth of chemical imbalances in normally healthy brains has never been proven, what has been clinically proven is that after being put on drugs along these lines is that normally healthy and ok brains then become chemically imbalanced.  Again I'm not a doctor so do your own medical research since it your brain and mind!

Edited November 30, 2018 by 3bob

[3bob]

Luke, Thanks for sharing your very difficult story about working things out with and for your partner's condition.  And from what you've described it is obvious you guys have been through a great deal of looking for help and through many heart wrenching  ordeals!

Best wishes to you.

[liminal_luke]

Thanks 3bob.  For what it`s worth, I do agree that these drugs are way overused.  They do have serious side effects that are not always well-described by prescribing physicians.  The latest thinking about depression is that it`s an inflammatory condition.  As such, there`s a great deal to be gained by eating a diet that minimizes systemic inflammation.  The beneficial effect of exercise has been demonstrated in studies and by personal experience again and again.  It`s my belief that almost nobody should be on these pills without also being in therapy.  Most people would do better considering these non-pharmaceutical approachs to mental wellness first.

[rideforever]

I am surprised if anyone is still sane in this society

[Nungali]

....  or not depressed .

 

I am the opposite ;  usually elated , constantly thankful and appreciative , of  'just life' .     It took some time and effort to get to that space. 

 

So maybe I am not sane .   But I am happy and grateful  - the  local town here is very pleasant, healthy environment ( pristine world heritage areas) , good local produce, a lot to do and enjoy, a pop tourist place, rivers, forest and pristine beaches, good facilities, even free medical when you need it , etc. etc.    Yet the local pharmacy has one of the highest distributions of anti-depressant drugs per population in the state. What's with that ? 

 

Peeps be takin so many down in the 'Big Smoke'  their bodies saturated with it - in their piss, so in the sewer and the leaks from that ( which is really a small proportion of it )  be fillin up the harbour  !   

 

https://mashable.com/2015/07/07/painkillers-antidepressants-sydney-harbour/#zYELAhPoyZqX

 

and

 

Antidepressants from urine are making fish less afraid of predators

 

https://phys.org/news/2017-11-antidepressants-urine-fish-predators.html