Clarification on Constructiveness of Posts

[wandelaar]

I thought this topic was about the way Bums talked about each other in the Trump thread (and that's an important reason why I stayed away from the topic), but now it appears to be about comments on Trump's character. To me as a relative outsider (not living in the US) it's clear that Trump has very serious character flaws that can have  dangerous political consequences worldwide. If Trump were a decent Republican (or Democrat or whatever) the discussion could be purely about his political deeds and doctrines, but as it is his personality is much too relevant to be left out of the discussion.

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by wandelaar

[dawei]

12 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Well said, Trunk.  If there`s room on the board for Trump-love there must be room for Trump-hate. 

 

You've missed the point so far... there is room for it.   But I will say that I don't see Trump-love as much as I see folks who agree with the policy stuff; does that make it lovey fluffy towards Trump.   That he can get some things done that previous administrations could not, isn't a love thing.   That some of his non-political approaches have done some good, isn't a lovey dovey thing towards Trump.

 

I like when there are more jobs. I like when the economy runs better. I like when my paycheck goes up and  my taxes go down.   Where in any universe does that mean I love Trump and are pro-Trump ?   If Obama had done it, would I be a lover of Obama ?   

 

I disagreed with lots of what Obama did... that didn't mean I had a need to call him every nasty word in the book.  I would never call him nasty words but I would call out his policy decisions and outcomes.   Is that 'hate' ?   I don't think so. 

 

There's lots of room for discussion.   Meet you there

 

[dawei]

Just now, wandelaar said:

I thought this topic was about the way Bums talked about each other in the Trump thread (and that's an important reason why I stayed away from the topic), but now it appears to be about comments on Trump's character. To me as a relative outsider (not living in the US) it's clear that Trump has very serious character flaws that can have  dangerous political consequences worldwide. If Trump were a decent Republican (or Democrat or whatever) the discussion could be purely about his political deeds and doctrines, but as it is his personality is much to relevant to be left out of the discussion.

 

it's really both... if you say, "Anyone who believes .... "   then that is directed at members.   But in the end, it is about how constructive, civil, and respectful can we be as we engage in discussions and disagreements.   It is a board wide issue but one thread (or two) has shown itself to be a dumping ground for attacking someone;  That is not discussion.

 

As I've repeatedly said, so I agree, there is room to discuss him but constructively, civilly and respectfully as the basis.   Let's talk facts and let it go where it goes. 

[wandelaar]

Still think that Trump's character flaws are very relevant, and that the proposal to not attack him and only constructively, civilly and respectfully talk about him makes it almost impossible to discuss the ugly and dangerous aspects of his personality as they relate to his presidency.

[dawei]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Still think that Trump's character flaws are very relevant, and that the proposal to not attack him and only constructively, civilly and respectfully talk about him makes it almost impossible to discuss the ugly and dangerous aspects of his personality as they relate to his presidency.

 

You missed the point.  Whatever you talk, be constructive, civil and respectful in the end.   Pose the ugly and dangerous aspects so we can discuss them.  Give discussion points for members to ponder.     

[thelerner]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but if it were up to a vote, I'd drop the Trump thread into the Void. 

It's been flame bait since it began.  There's been little or no good from it, and lots of ill feelings and bitterness.  Seems like Void stuff to me.

[dawei]

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Maybe I'm missing the point, but if it were up to a vote, I'd drop the Trump thread into the Void. 

It's been flame bait since it began.  There's been little or no good from it, and lots of ill feelings and bitterness.  Seems like Void stuff to me.

 

Ok, so why not

 

[wandelaar]

17 minutes ago, dawei said:

You missed the point.  Whatever you talk, be constructive, civil and respectful in the end.   Pose the ugly and dangerous aspects so we can discuss them.  Give discussion points for members to ponder.     

 

It's no use to repeat what has already been said many times over. I took a look repeatedly how the Trump thread was doing, but I saw no real discussions going on and lots of the usual fallacies that tend to surface when people get angry and egos get hurt. I think it was wise not to step into the arena. It certainly saved me a lot of time and trouble.

[liminal_luke]

50 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Maybe I'm missing the point, but if it were up to a vote, I'd drop the Trump thread into the Void. 

It's been flame bait since it began.  There's been little or no good from it, and lots of ill feelings and bitterness.  Seems like Void stuff to me.

 

I second this.  Everyone gets to post wherever they want, of course, but I can't help thinking about all the wonderful posts that might appear if the attention of experienced Taoist cultivators wasn't siphoned off into the political nethers.  I know for a fact that Trunk and Joseblast have all sorts of practice-related insights I`d love to read about.  Judging from her blog, Red Cairo has an amazingly rich spiritual life that we almost never hear about.  What great cultivation posts are we missing from Brian and Taomeow because they got into a Trump Talk spat and split?

[Trunk]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I second this.  Everyone gets to post wherever they want, of course, but I can't help thinking about all the wonderful posts that might appear if the attention of experienced Taoist cultivators wasn't siphoned off into the political nethers.  I know for a fact that Trunk and Joseblast have all sorts of practice-related insights I`d love to read about.  Judging from her blog, Red Cairo has an amazingly rich spiritual life that we almost never hear about.  What great cultivation posts are we missing from Brian and Taomeow because they got into a Trump Talk spat and split?

 

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

Maybe I'm missing the point, but if it were up to a vote, I'd drop the Trump thread into the Void. 

It's been flame bait since it began.  There's been little or no good from it, and lots of ill feelings and bitterness.  Seems like Void stuff to me.

 

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Ok, so why not

 

 

Agreed.

It’s bad for the board community.  It’s arguably unrelated to the purpose of the board.   it takes up STAFF ENERGY.  

 

I can’t think of a reason why not.

[Aetherous]

I want to discuss politics, as do most people who participate in that thread. If it's divisive to the forum, it could be kept in a hidden section (similar to the men's and women's sections where one has to request access before being able to view it). This way, the anti-discussion people would be happy not seeing it, and the pro-discussion people would be happy they're able to discuss.

 

As for the ranting issue...it primarily causes me to worry about someone who does it. I'm speaking directly about 3bob, of course. Sometimes the ranting seems like it's coming from a very unhealthy place. That being said, this has been pointed out multiple times to him, and he hasn't really gone off the deep end. Sometimes he seems able to calm down and joke around a bit. So perhaps the unhealthy aspect of it is just my own projection onto his words. I would hate to see someone get booted for the way they write, or their opinions. If the ranting is seen as similar to spam, and isn't contributing to discussion, then I would hope to see the ranter warned first before getting the boot. If they choose to continue to disobey mod warnings, then it only makes sense that they can't handle the forum at that time...and perhaps a break would help them learn (like it has for me, in the past).

 

Edit: oh, I see now that the thread has been pitted.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Aetherous

[thelerner]

AHhh and by VOIDing I mean automatically suspending for 6 months everyone who has posted on the thread over 7 times  (I have only posted 6), thus knocking out most of the mods and making me a defacto ruler of the board. 

 

 

Finally.. well that took long enough. 

my first decree is we are no longer be the Dao Bums, we be going back to the Tao Bums, or maybe Dharmo Bums... I'll have to think about it..

 

 

thank you Trump, you served your part well.

Edited December 7, 2018 by thelerner

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

AHhh and by VOIDing I mean automatically suspending for 6 months everyone who has posted on the thread over 7 times 

 

Ban everyone for a few days, I say! Replace the forum with a gif of a cartoon hamster running on a wheel, preferably with circus music.

 

[sean]

FWIW I was missing some context when I responded to this. I conceded that repeated and similar tirades without substance could be considered a kind of unconstructive spam. I didn't realize this was specifically a "Trump Talk" topic already in Off Topic. I also wrote that I tended to give more weight to insults based on how likely I imagined the "target" would 1. ever receive the insult and 2. be hurt by it. In the case of Trump I think both are close to 0% chance. (Maybe especially #2 since Trump in particular appears to lack literally any ordinary human capacity for dignity or shame. Ziing! 🙃) In any case, this topic has been moved to Hun Dun now, yes? Sans "forbidden content" I think it can just be let be without moderation now.

[liminal_luke]

Wow, the thread has been pitted!  Hard to believe.  That doesn`t completely settle the question of off-grid political discussion but it`s a gutsy, and sure-to-be-controversial move.  

 

I`d like to personally thank whoever made the decision.  Dao Bums has been part of my life for a long, long time now and it`s far to say that my life wouldn`t have been the same without it.  Many of the practices and teachers that have become important to me I learned about here.  Honestly, I talk about politics too.  It`s exciting but it`s not the kind of excitement that feeds my being.  It`s more of a gambling-type excitement, a let`s-see-what-those-crazy-people-who-disagree-with-me -have-to-say-now kind of excitement. 

 

Lately I`ve felt like the forum has been overgrown with political weeds.  Pitting Trump Talk feels like a healthy step in the direction of returning this place to it`s rightful mission.  

 

 

[ilumairen]

33 minutes ago, sean said:

FWIW I was missing some context when I responded to this. I conceded that repeated and similar tirades without substance could be considered a kind of unconstructive spam. I didn't realize this was specifically a "Trump Talk" topic already in Off Topic. I also wrote that I tended to give more weight to insults based on how likely I imagined the "target" would 1. ever receive the insult and 2. be hurt by it. In the case of Trump I think both are close to 0% chance. (Maybe especially #2 since Trump in particular appears to lack literally any ordinary human capacity for dignity or shame. Ziing! 🙃) In any case, this topic has been moved to Hun Dun now, yes? Sans "forbidden content" I think it can just be let be without moderation now.

 

Thanks for checking in sean, and sorting things out a bit. 

 

[Trunk]

Just my two cents: I'd vote for locking the thread as well.

Just be f###ing done with it: the board 'd be cleaner without it, for years to come.

 

[Lost in Translation]

[ilumairen]

May I ask why the Talk Trump thread was pitted, but not the Trump Exorcisms thread?

 

I'm curious. 

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

May I ask why the Talk Trump thread was pitted, but not the Trump Exorcisms thread?

 

I'm curious. 

 

I`m betting it`s just an oversight.  Certainly seems like both threads are of a piece.  Pit both (along with any further discussion along these lines) and the whole issue that we are talking about/not talking about here goes away.

Edited December 7, 2018 by liminal_luke

[ilumairen]

9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I`m betting it`s just an oversight.  Certainly seems like both threads are of a piece.  Pit both and the whole issue that we are talking about/not talking about here goes away.

 

Personally I think the issue(s) remain and are being swept under the bed. But the house will look clean for those who don't look under the bed. 

 

I do however agree that the two threads are of a piece, and should recieve 'equil treatment'. 

 

As for oversite, I'm not sure.. The most vocal proponent of pitting the one seems completely ok with the other - while calling out others for bias. 

 

[zerostao]

9 hours ago, Trunk said:

Just my two cents: I'd vote for locking the thread as well.

Just be f###ing done with it: the board 'd be cleaner without it, for years to come.

 

then, Just step away from it

#WalkAway

[Stosh]

10 hours ago, Trunk said:

Just my two cents: I'd vote for locking the thread as well.

Just be f###ing done with it: the board 'd be cleaner without it, for years to come.

 

Maybe, but is there a purpose to having a clean board if participation is stifled ? Yes , even though there's a lot of rant or rhetoric , it is still an entertainment enough that people go and look at the thread.

Even the complainers look at the thread ! its active even when the rest is asleep. Its not in 'front and center' even. 

 

  Members ,,, some, ...tend to not want too much interference because they rightly understand that such censorship , even when done for reasonable reasons ,,, has this habit of growing out of control, affecting more and more input.( mission creep) 

   There too , is a problem with prioritizing by ones own judgement ,,,,and that is - because once one has a preference, and power to promote it ,  they tend to think that the position of their own preference has more validity than alternatives.

  That's why rule of law , and SOP protocols get instituted rather than having a default to either -dictatorship or mob rule.

 

Personally I think all the threads should have a life span , pick a number of posts , 50 or so, and the thread locks automatically. After 50 posts , they all have wandered or are just going around in circles , forgotten and unattended by the OP...

People ask questions , and ignore the answers , where is the 'usefulness of those threads?' they should all be ending in a thank you and a locked status. End of story ! but they dont , and so one cannot pick the trump thread or the Brexit thread out and say that these posts need to have some greater purpose than the others , which have far less emotional worth or interest.

IMO

Just leave the thing as it is , and to those who don't want to get in there , don't read it. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Stosh

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

Personally I think the issue(s) remain and are being swept under the bed. But the house will look clean for those who don't look under the bed. 

 

 

I`ll confess that I was briefly tempted to look under the bed myself (but successfully resisted the urge).  It`s true, as you suggest, that pitting Trump-related threads doesn`t entirely resolve the bummer of an identity crisis we`re currently dealing with.  The larger question is what kind of a forum we want to be: one where the discussion of politics is allowed to predominate or a spiritual forum.  

 

When most of the discussion here revolves around political topics the whole character of the board is changed.  This is true for everybody, including those with the discipline (or blessed disinterest) to avoid Off-Grid.  Bums who would otherwise put their energy into commenting about spiritual philosophy and practice instead spend time enmeshed in a Trump-esque conversational sinkhole.  Some bums get so disgusted by the interactions they have in said sinkhole that they abandon this place altogether.  Everyone loses.  On a subtle level, I believe the contentious energy of Off-Grid spills over into other parts of the board: it becomes part and parcel of who we are.  

 

Many people enjoy talking about politics.  Far be it from me to suggest that they shouldn`t do so.  The only question is whether they should do so here.  Seems to me there are many places to talk Trump and few to talk Dao.  What we have here is special and we should take proactive steps to protect it.

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by liminal_luke

[Stosh]

Which spiritual philosophy ? The one whos interest levels cant compete ? or maybe the Mo Pai stuff?

Edited December 7, 2018 by Stosh