Clarification on Constructiveness of Posts

[Aetherous]

A few supremely disappointing responses here.

 

It will be a sad day when this forum becomes a place where entire subjects of reasonable discussion are outlawed (even from "the pit"). Instead of burning books, how about you guys just learn to get along with people that you don't see eye to eye with?

Edited December 7, 2018 by Aetherous

[zerostao]

A forum that claims it is a Spiritual site should ignore life's tough problems, issues, ?

Really? Then what good is the Spiritual if it cannot address life's tricky situations?

This site proudly claims Discussions on the Way

and along the Way we encounter all sorts of stuff.

This IS the place for those discussions?

Yes or No

How does anyone reach a level of understanding if we sweep all of the tough stuff under the rug and pretend it doesnt exist?

To get to the place where bluebirds sing and fly, where troubles melt like lemon drops and the dreams you dare to dream really do come true way up high you first have to deal with what faces us all here.

Here We Are. There IS a light that shines on All. To get to Spring you must endure Winter.

The leaves blow across the long, black road to the darkened skies In it's rage. Accept it and deal with it at least discuss it or be some imprisoned bird in a cage where you never are allowed to Fly. That would truly be a shame and a pity.

If you refuse to fly through the darkened stormy skies you will never reach where you claim that you desire.

If Flying to the promised land were easy we wouldn't even need spirituality, would we?

You have wings, it is up to you whether you dare to use them or not.

Do you wish to remain caged and flightless on a winter's day in the rain, or, you gonna flap them wings and try.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

4 minutes ago, zerostao said:

A forum that claims it is a Spiritual site should ignore life's tough problems, issues, ?

 

 

For most of us, national politics isn`t really one of our life`s tough problems.  For many, talking about national politics is a way of avoiding life`s tough problems. 

 

Should a health food store be forced to sell Twinkies just because there`s a market for chemically-laced sugary treats?  No, the owner of the healthfood store has a right -- if not a responsibility -- to sell food that`s nourishing.  It`s no different here.  If my favorite organic grocer started to turn into yet another 7-11, I might mention to management that I missed how things used to be.   

[zerostao]

9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

For most of us, national politics isn`t really one of our life`s tough problems.  For many, talking about national politics is a way of avoiding life`s tough problems. 

 

Should a health food store be forced to sell Twinkies just because there`s a market for chemically-laced sugary treats?  No, the owner of the healthfood store has a right -- if not a responsibility -- to sell food that`s nourishing.  It`s no different here.  If my favorite organic grocer started to turn into yet another 7-11, I might mention to management that I missed how things used to be.   

nostalgia is rat poison lukie. avoid being stuck in the past. you'll never fly if you're stuck. You don't have to buy or munch twinkies just because they're offered.  If someone enjoying a cellophane wrapped golden spunge cake with creamy filling as a guilty pleasure disturbs you, is it your problem or theirs?

Edited December 7, 2018 by zerostao

[liminal_luke]

6 minutes ago, zerostao said:

  If someone enjoying a cellophane wrapped golden spunge cake with creamy filling as a guilty pleasure disturbs you, is it your problem or theirs?

 

If someone is enjoying a cellophane wrapped golden spunge cake in the privacy of their own home, I`ve nothing to say about it.

 

If the "treat" is enjoyed here, but quarantined in the pit, I`ll deal.

 

If the forum becomes so inundated with cellophane wrapped golden spunge cakes that they start to off-gas into the general atmosphere, we all have a stake in the situation. 

[zerostao]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

If someone is enjoying a cellophane wrapped golden spunge cake in the privacy of their own home, I`ve nothing to say about it.

why would you say anything if they eat in public? does it harm you? just think if i had your attitude concerning twinkies and applied it towards the lbgt community? if you do it in the privacy of your home, i'm cool but if you display out in public i am outraged? really lukie calm down

If the "treat" is enjoyed here, but quarantined in the pit, I`ll deal.

and you won't deal if it isn't pitted?

 

If the forum becomes so inundated with cellophane wrapped golden spunge cakes that they start to off-gas into the general atmosphere, we all have a stake in the situation. 

i havnt noticed gas inflation to upper sections and i have been participating in those sections recently.

the much maligned (by me) Aristotle considers the human to be a political animal. there are those who think Aristotle knew something.

i know, right. still, to dismiss such a huge part of our nature is healthy?

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-politics/index.html#supplement3

going to Athens is one thing and then there are those mysterious Greek Islands

[Kar3n]

The way TBD used to be was unmoderated as in pretty much anything goes. Law and order came to town and there was resistance. 

 

It is amazing to me that there is now a call for censorship and only discussion of the "spiritual" and the Dao. Somehow it seems to have escaped some that the Dao is all encompassing and that includes politics and twinkies.

[thelerner]

2 hours ago, Aetherous said:

A few supremely disappointing responses here.

 

It will be a sad day when this forum becomes a place where entire subjects of reasonable discussion are outlawed (even from "the pit"). Instead of burning books, how about you guys just learn to get along with people that you don't see eye to eye with?

Come on, two years, 712 pages, 10,000+ posts, a discussion filled with too much flame bait, spam and ill will on all sides.  That's not book burning that's a 5 story library filled with (*%#!.   One that's still here for anyone who wants to wade into it. 

 

To me, its about Balance.  There are times when a thread becomes obsessive to people.   To see that there are calls of censorship because now they'll have to write in Hundun.  That their great political thoughts and jabs won't get as much attention, is good.  Cause after 700 pages it wasn't healthy for them or the board.  It's generating too much ill will that's spilling into other posts. 

 

Other political threads will be born, but hopefully in a better spirit then the Talk Trump one.  This is not without precedence on our board, when a group gets obsessive.  In this case its 2 mutually antagonistic groups.   I beg people to let it rest a little.   See what its like not to rant for or against or insult a political party or figure for awhile.  Or there's always Hundun.

[Aetherous]

There are two camps.
1) A number of us who want to have these discussions amongst each other. We think they're enriching and enlightening, even if we disagree strongly.

2) A number who don't want any of those discussions here at all, regardless of what others want, for the sake of preserving the forum as a more spiritually oriented place.

 

I'd say both camps are comprised of similar numbers of forum members.

 

Both camps can be happy if all political discussion was in a hidden subforum that you had to request permission to see and use (like the men's and women's subforums). As it stands, if political threads end up in the pit, members can still see those threads and thereby (somehow) feel like it's ruining the entire forum. If it were unseen and required work and a conscious decision to see it, it wouldn't have that same effect. And it wouldn't be attempting the impossible, of banning all political discussion everywhere on the site, against the wishes of numerous forum members.

[zerostao]

i say some folks might consider working on their obsessive behavior. ironically, it is often those same folks who speak concerning the psychology of others. there is a lot going on on some of those threads. beneath the surface lie myriad levels and layers. at one time i used the trump thread to work on my energetic shields and probe others energetics/shields. i've learned quite a bit although not necessarily all that much about trump. i had completely stepped away until it found its new location which altered its energetics, so, i am back checking on that aspect of it. i doubt anyone on this thread or even the site has less interest in politics than me. yet, i find the thread useful.

this site is Spiritual & energetic, the amount of energy put into the trump thread is a study of its own. is it wasted energy? how could it be?

[wandelaar]

@ Aetherous

 

I could well imagine political discussions from a Taoist and/or spiritual perspective that would be very interesting and appropriate for The Dao Bums. Unfortunately the Trump topic(s) had no connection to Taoism or spirituality as far as I could see. Besides there was hardly any real discussion going on, and the topic(s) created a lot of ill will. For those kind of topics a hidden subforum would be ideal. I know there are men's and women's subforums, but I never even tried to take a look, and consequently am happily oblivious to what is happening there. If the Trump topic and kindred heated political topics were moved to such a hidden subforum that would certainly make a big difference.

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by wandelaar

[Aetherous]

4 minutes ago, thelerner said:

There are times when a thread becomes obsessive to people.

 

It's up to them as individuals to not be obsessed. We're all adults, and it's unhealthy for us when others make our life choices for us. That's being "coddled", and leads to no growth happening in terms of breaking free from obsession (or whatever else our issue is).

People on the path of cultivation take the opposite route of needing to be coddled: where they consciously decide who and how they will be, regardless of circumstances. They develop at least a little bit of willpower, taking care to not become obsessed (or develop other issues).

 

4 minutes ago, thelerner said:

To see that there are calls of censorship because now they'll have to write in Hundun.

 

No, that's fine.

The problem is people saying such threads shouldn't even be there in Hundun, but should simply be deleted, and all political discussion basically outlawed here. At least I think that's what Trunk and Luke have been trying to say here...
 

4 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Cause after 700 pages it wasn't healthy for them or the board.  It's generating too much ill will that's spilling into other posts. 

 

Similar to the obsession point, if people have ill will toward each other, they need to start cultivating. How to do that = one idea is that they could actively work on having good will toward others, for instance with Buddhist loving-kindness and compassion work.

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

For most of us, national politics isn`t really one of our life`s tough problems.  For many, talking about national politics is a way of avoiding life`s tough problems. 

 

Should a health food store be forced to sell Twinkies just because there`s a market for chemically-laced sugary treats?  No, the owner of the healthfood store has a right -- if not a responsibility -- to sell food that`s nourishing.  It`s no different here.  If my favorite organic grocer started to turn into yet another 7-11, I might mention to management that I missed how things used to be.   

A very good answer , though not directly so... Yeah national politics is beyond what we can credibly affect as individuals. But the the thread in itself is not a determiner of national policy. It IS however exemplary of how we as individuals deal with one another, how

we who have at least some concern about a spiritual angle on life deal with That issue,and how we regard real life 'events' like the existence of politics is attended.  

If a person pontificates about a spiritual view on life , perhaps they feel they have gained or learned , then this gaining or learning should present itself in political discourse no less clearly than in a discussion on coffee beans or twinkies. 

I like Twinkies cakes , as for all the sugar, a bowl of pasta or popcorn or rice has as much or much more , since a starch is just a chain of glucose molecules. Your idea of nourishing , is not well informed as I see it , and so I do not recognize any responsibility on the part of the store to choose for everybody what they should consume , that wisely can be left to individuals.  

 

Exactly as I was insinuating , its this sense that one is more right , which compels people to start making decisions for everybody else and then they think they are doing some sort of good . 

[dawei]

17 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Wow, the thread has been pitted!  Hard to believe.  That doesn`t completely settle the question of off-grid political discussion but it`s a gutsy, and sure-to-be-controversial move.  

 

I`d like to personally thank whoever made the decision.  Dao Bums has been part of my life for a long, long time now and it`s far to say that my life wouldn`t have been the same without it.  Many of the practices and teachers that have become important to me I learned about here.  Honestly, I talk about politics too.  It`s exciting but it`s not the kind of excitement that feeds my being.  It`s more of a gambling-type excitement, a let`s-see-what-those-crazy-people-who-disagree-with-me -have-to-say-now kind of excitement. 

 

Lately I`ve felt like the forum has been overgrown with political weeds.  Pitting Trump Talk feels like a healthy step in the direction of returning this place to it`s rightful mission.  

 

When Thelerner spoke his post, it just struck me as the most common sense thing to do: Pit it.    The thread was really undefined and out of control.  Folks can decide if they want to start a more defined policy based discussion. 

 

 

14 hours ago, Trunk said:

Just my two cents: I'd vote for locking the thread as well.

Just be f###ing done with it: the board 'd be cleaner without it, for years to come.

 

 

Thought about that.  Wanted to see what happens and hoped folks would just stop on their own.  We'll see. 

 

5 hours ago, ilumairen said:

May I ask why the Talk Trump thread was pitted, but not the Trump Exorcisms thread?

 

I'm curious. 

 

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I`m betting it`s just an oversight.  Certainly seems like both threads are of a piece.  Pit both (along with any further discussion along these lines) and the whole issue that we are talking about/not talking about here goes away.

 

Yes, thanks Luke.  They are now both Pitted. 

[Aetherous]

32 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Unfortunately the Trump topic(s) had no connection to Taoism or spirituality as far as I could see.

 

Spiritual cultivation doesn't start and stop in different moments.

I heard a spiritual master once talk about a person who was big time into meditation. This person was doing their thing on their zafu, attaining states of bliss...and suddenly they were disturbed by their little kid who started making a bunch of noise. They got up and angrily beat their own little child... That person has lost the way entirely, and it doesn't matter what happened on the cushion, because what happened in the next moment was the opposite of spiritual cultivation. We practice in order to manifest the spiritual in every moment...to respond spiritually to the thing that challenges us.

There's this idea from Christians, where someone might go commit every sin on Saturday night, and then get into the religious mindset come Sunday morning. Put on their nice clothes, smile big, and shake hands of people around them, looking like the perfect Christian. But in reality, it doesn't make up for what they did. They are the opposite of religious due to what happened on Saturday, and they just use their identity of being Christian as a crutch or a facade. Come next Saturday, what will it matter what happened on Sunday? They'll be back to doing all of the naughty things.

So, spiritual cultivation is by necessity in every single moment. For people who aren't perfect, like all of us, that means every moment is an opportunity to cultivate (we still might make tons of mistakes and not be so cultivated). Spiritual teachings inform us of how to cultivate in every moment (for instance, Buddhist mind training). We need to pay special attention to those moments which we think aren't related to spirituality...like the bliss addict who should've been aware that anger and violence toward his own kid were the opposite of anything spiritual.

This also means that everything happening in every moment, no matter what that thing is, is related to our spiritual cultivation. How do we respond? That determines who we are and who we become, spiritually.

Also, is it good spiritual cultivation to be entirely unworldly? Some say yes, retreat to the mountains and avoid all people. Others say that cultivation is part of life in the world, in society. As members of society, we have some responsibility for that society...so part of a genuine cultivator's path is engagement with real world issues.

In these senses, every section and every topic here, and outside of the forum, are all related to spirituality. If we're cultivators, everything in every moment is. The fact that we have people interested in spirituality here increases that fact, since in the midst of political discussion we sometimes point out to each other how we can have greater honesty, greater compassion, etc.

Looking at things from this perspective, can you see how saying something "has no connection to spirituality" isn't true for the genuine aspirant?

Edited December 7, 2018 by Aetherous

[wandelaar]

55 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Looking at things from this perspective, can you see how saying something "has no connection to spirituality" isn't true for the genuine aspirant?

 

You are right that spirituality should show in everyday life, and thus also in the way politics is discussed. But even from this perspective I didn't see spirituality in action in the Trump topic(s). There may well have been some moments here and there where spirituality was manifested, but overall the discussion in the Trump topic(s) wasn't any better than the heated political (non)discussions you see everywhere else on the internet. Or from a Laoist perspective: just a waste of time.

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by wandelaar

[dawei]

4 hours ago, Aetherous said:

A few supremely disappointing responses here.

 

It will be a sad day when this forum becomes a place where entire subjects of reasonable discussion are outlawed (even from "the pit"). Instead of burning books, how about you guys just learn to get along with people that you don't see eye to eye with?

 

This is part of the diverse Way

 

Even the upheavals and disagreements and tumult...  For this forum, staff evaluate to what degree are we allowing that natural [disagreeable] arising and when do we draw a line to the fundamentals (rules, civility, etc).   I can tell you that I switch sides almost every day because I see everyone's point of view when they complain about their side being infringed on.   Ultimately, there has to be a rooting to what makes sense for the forum.     

 

I appreciate your voice, and many others.   My decisions are collective listening decisions, so I do thank every voice. 

 

3 hours ago, zerostao said:

A forum that claims it is a Spiritual site should ignore life's tough problems, issues, ?

Really? Then what good is the Spiritual if it cannot address life's tricky situations?

This site proudly claims Discussions on the Way

and along the Way we encounter all sorts of stuff.

This IS the place for those discussions?

Yes or No

How does anyone reach a level of understanding if we sweep all of the tough stuff under the rug and pretend it doesnt exist?

To get to the place where bluebirds sing and fly, where troubles melt like lemon drops and the dreams you dare to dream really do come true way up high you first have to deal with what faces us all here.

Here We Are. There IS a light that shines on All. To get to Spring you must endure Winter.

 

This largely reflects my view.  I recall when I first meet my wife and we were talking about weather, I said, "how can you accept the sun but not the rain or snow?"     

 

As you know very well, staff decisions are what they are based on our point of view of things beyond weather... and it is not always the ideal Way but it hopefully helps get us back to it.    Thank you Zero !

 

 

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

For most of us, national politics isn`t really one of our life`s tough problems.  For many, talking about national politics is a way of avoiding life`s tough problems. 

 

Should a health food store be forced to sell Twinkies just because there`s a market for chemically-laced sugary treats?  No, the owner of the healthfood store has a right -- if not a responsibility -- to sell food that`s nourishing.  It`s no different here.  If my favorite organic grocer started to turn into yet another 7-11, I might mention to management that I missed how things used to be.   

 

Your voice is always a breath of fresh air (like RC) as you don't really accuse or label or demand... but state a common sense idea.  I really like that.   Keep it up even directed at the staff !

 

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

@ Aetherous

 

I could well imagine political discussions from a Taoist and/or spiritual perspective that would be very interesting and appropriate for The Dao Bums. Unfortunately the Trump topic(s) had no connection to Taoism or spirituality as far as I could see.

 

I get that idea... but above I talked about the Diverse Way...  Zero has said it best.  Everything is the Way.    Thanks for sharing that thought as it is important to simply and sometimes just say what we think.  

[Aetherous]

10 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

You are right that spirituality should show in everyday life, and thus also in the way politics is discussed. But even from this perspective I didn't see spirituality in action in the Trump topic(s). There may well have been some moments here and there where spirituality was manifested, but overall the discussion in the Trump topic(s) wasn't any better than the heated political (non)discussions you see everywhere else on the internet. Or from a Laoist perspective: just a waste of time.

 

Judging others isn't how to cultivate.

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

To me, its about Balance.  There are times when a thread becomes obsessive to people.   To see that there are calls of censorship because now they'll have to write in Hundun.  That their great political thoughts and jabs won't get as much attention, is good.  Cause after 700 pages it wasn't healthy for them or the board.  It's generating too much ill will that's spilling into other posts. 

 

Other political threads will be born, but hopefully in a better spirit then the Talk Trump one.  This is not without precedence on our board, when a group gets obsessive.  In this case its 2 mutually antagonistic groups.   I beg people to let it rest a little.   See what its like not to rant for or against or insult a political party or figure for awhile.  Or there's always Hundun.

 

Oddly, I find myself taking a bit of exception to this.

 

First, who knows what is, or is not, good for me? 

 

Second, it isn't two mutually antagonistic groups facing off for page after page. 

 

Third, it hasn't been all rants and insults. 

 

And finally, I don't see most of the individuals who participated in the thread caring much about it being pitted - one way or the other.  

[dawei]

8 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

Judging others isn't how to cultivate.

 

That is a curious point...  isn't it cultivating something though, yes ?  

 

That may be kind of unfair to harp on though...  (I just noticed I used though in two sentences).

 

I have a funny story about 'cultivation'...  Having already done Qigong and Medical Qigong training, I had still never heard the word "cultivation".  It was just practice this or that.  So when on one particular website, I said I didn't understand the word "cultivation" and they laughed at me as trying to pull their chain... but I was serious.  I didn't know its usage among practitioners. 

 

What I took from the exchange is that for some, labels are so important they will not let go of it.

 

I get it now... but wu wei is more along the lines of cultivating without trying or labeling it.  

 

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Judging others isn't how to cultivate.

 

Just describing what I saw...

[dawei]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Oddly, I find myself taking a bit of exception to this.

 

First, who knows what is, or is not, good for me? 

 

Second, it isn't two mutually antagonistic groups facing off for page after page. 

 

Third, it hasn't been all rants and insults. 

 

And finally, I don't see most of the individuals who participated in the thread caring much about it being pitted - one way or the other.  

 

most of your points are taken.

 

but we may flow back to your points in a new thread where discussion can flow... I'd like to meet you there

 

[ilumairen]

Just now, dawei said:

 

most of your points are taken.

 

but we may flow back to your points in a new thread where discussion can flow... I'd like to meet you there

 

 

You can split it out and make a new thread if you would like. 

 

I'm going to get a cheese pizza. 

[ilumairen]

5 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Just describing what I saw...

 

And soo much of what is seen is colored by what we carry...

[dawei]

6 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

You can split it out and make a new thread if you would like. 

 

I'm going to get a cheese pizza. 

 

I think a re-do is needed.  Let's start fresh.... a fresh voice will help