Clarification on Constructiveness of Posts

[zerostao]

actual virtual representation of bums acting on a controversial topic thread aka the good, the good & the good

 

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

the trump thread has everything, i mean, well view the above spoiler, and,,,,

waaaaaaaaaaaaa wahwah

thanks to all Bums who generously share their amazing voices!!

Long Live The Dao Bums !!

and no cnesorship , yes no cnesorship or censorship evah wahwah waaaa

feeling the good energy vibing

keep on vibing ya'll

we can work it through, work it out by discussing whatever----

we are all that

rezpect

 

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by zerostao

[Stosh]

One doesnt normally expect a school to have no students. 

 

How is a zafu similar to a bo staff?

 Or what does a dojo have to do with a monestary?

[liminal_luke]

Personally, I love the pitting.  Realistically, there`s not a lot of difference if Trump discussions are in the pit or Off-Grid: Bums who enjoy talking politics can carry on as easily in one place as the other.  So it`s not as if the books have been burned, just moved to a well-ventilated area of the basement.  It`s true that there`s a part of me that would like to see the forum without political conversation altogether but I don`t feel as strongly about it as it might seem.  If there was a vote, I`d happily check the book burning box, but I`m not sneaking around at night pouring out metaphorical gasoline.

 

I`ve been a little annoyed about Trump Talk honestly because I have some expectations about how I should be treated there that were not being met.  Basically, I wanted civility and basic respect as a person and I felt I wasn`t getting it.  It occured to me to report the posts I found offensive, but I didn`t because I thought based on prior experience that doing so would not accomplish anything.  I assumed that any reports would be met with silence, or that I would be told, basically, to buck it up.  The advantage of the pit is that assholery is to be expected.  I don`t feel offended experiencing it there because, well, that`s the place for it.  If I want civility (and I do!) it`s my responsibility to stay out of the pit.  I can deal with that.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by liminal_luke

[wandelaar]

28 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Judging others isn't how to cultivate.

 

16 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

And soo much of what is seen is colored by what we carry...

 

And that's how political discussions here quickly turn into personal attacks. Point proven.

[Aetherous]

8 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Just describing what I saw...

 

This is all just stuff to think about, so that we can improve ourselves. It's not to feel judged about being told that we judged others . What ilumairen just said to you is most correct...thinking more about this is a way to learn about ourselves (when we view others negatively, it's helpful spiritually to realize that the negativity is most often a flaw having to do with our own lens of perception, more so than the actual person. It usually has to do with issues we have, and figuring those things out can help us in so many ways).

Before posting this, I just saw your response claiming that me pointing this out to you is exemplary of the problem in the Talk Trump thread. You felt attacked here...

Instead of that, I encourage you to consider constructive criticism, especially when it comes to the spiritual path, and realize that at least here it was said in order to help you see things from a different spiritual perspective. After all, that's exactly what you and I were talking about...whether certain moments or subjects are spiritual or not.

Please don't feel slighted. I think you could tell from our other exchanges (for instance in DDJ threads) that I've got nothing against you. Really, please try to consider this interaction in the way I'm describing here...try to grok what I'm saying, and what ilumairen said, rather than thinking it's something negative about you.

...

 

10 minutes ago, dawei said:

That is a curious point...  isn't it cultivating something though, yes ?  

 

Definitely. Things are cultivated in every moment - for better or worse. As cultivators, we aim for the better. Being normal people, life happens to us and better and worse things happen...being cultivators, we happen to life, and we are either better or worse for it.

It's like: the earth is always capable of growing things. We could throw some poisonous seeds in the ground and water them...but do we want a garden of poisonous plants? Or do we want a variety of veggies that are safe and enjoyable to eat?

Who will we make ourselves into?

Who wants to cultivate being judgmental? I'm sure people here could have a debate about whether the judgmental mindset is healthy and spiritual or not...but regardless of that fact, it's not something beneficial to us to become. The judgmental mindset involves looking down on others, which for instance goes against the Mahayana principle of equality of self and other. It's also a mindset that prevents one from realizing one's own hypocrisy, or other issues which require work for our personal spiritual growth...the judging mind doesn't recognize that others are mirrors for our issues; it just sees others as having issues.

So, judging prevents learning about oneself, and later bettering oneself as a side effect.
 

10 minutes ago, dawei said:

I have a funny story about 'cultivation'...  Having already done Qigong and Medical Qigong training, I had still never heard the word "cultivation".  It was just practice this or that.  So when on one particular website, I said I didn't understand the word "cultivation" and they laughed at me as trying to pull their chain... but I was serious.  I didn't know its usage among practitioners. 

 

I think everyone uses the word "cultivation" differently. I was taught my version of understanding it, and found agreement with the teaching. From what I understand, cultivation is what we choose in every moment.

Some people use it to talk about things like practicing zhan zhuang, or any other methods...they are "cultivating qi" or "cultivating for health", etc. Like all language, words are often used in the vernacular, and aren't always exacting in their definition. (In fact, I don't even think cultivation the way I undrestand it is in the dictionary.)

I use it in a more universal sense, of literally anything we're increasing in our lives. And when intentionally doing it, it's about increasing things we want...because who would choose to increase things they dislike in their lives?

 

10 minutes ago, dawei said:

I get it now... but wu wei is more along the lines of cultivating without trying or labeling it.  

 

Wu wei is interesting. In a sense, it almost seems like the opposite approach to being a cultivator. People view wu wei as similar to going with the flow, whereas cultivation in the sense I use it is going one's own chosen direction, sometimes against the flow. I think both ideas have their place, and are quite worthwhile.

[Kar3n]

11 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

 

And that's how political discussions here quickly turn into personal attacks. Point proven.

Those are general statements of fact, applicable to the masses.

 

I and others are not offended by this truth, please try not to be either. It's really not just about you. We are all guilty.

[dawei]

26 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Personally, I love the pitting.  Realistically, there`s not a lot of difference if Trump discussions are in the pit or Off-Grid: Bums who enjoy talking politics can carry on as easily in one place as the other.  So it`s not as if the books have been burned, just moved to a well-ventilated area of the basement.  It`s true that there`s a part of me that would like to see the forum without political conversation altogether but I don`t feel as strongly about it as it might seem.  If there was a vote, I`d happily check the book burning box, but I`m not sneaking around at night pouring out metaphorical gasoline.

 

I`ve been a little annoyed about Trump Talk honestly because I have some expectations about how I should be treated there that were not being met.  Basically, I wanted civility and basic respect as a person and I felt I wasn`t getting it.  It occured to me to report the posts I found offensive, but I didn`t because I thought based on prior experience that doing so would not accomplish anything.  I assumed that any reports would be met with silence, or that I would be told, basically, to buck it up.  The advantage of the pit is that assholery is to be expected.  I don`t feel offended experiencing it there because, well, that`s the place for it.  If I want civility (and I do!) it`s my responsibility to stay out of the pit.  I can deal with that.

 

Thanks Luke.... that kind of straight forward opinion bodes well.

 

As to reports... they do accomplish something: they give staff a heads up as to what is bothering members.  There is rarely silence on reports as we typically discuss them but I will say there is rarely action.   

 

Assholery...  very curious noun that almost sounds like an adjective

 

[Aetherous]

38 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

If there was a vote, I`d happily check the book burning box, but I`m not sneaking around at night pouring out metaphorical gasoline.

 

No, you haven't been doing that at all.

[liminal_luke]

2 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Assholery...  very curious noun that almost sounds like an adjective

 

 

I collect words from my reading, and assholery is a gem from my collection.  Glad you noticed it!  It`s the kind of word that comes in especially handy when one wants to make a snide insulting comment while appearing to keep to the rules.  Call someone an asshole and the mod squad could bust you without breaking a sweat.  Say that someone engages in a whole lot of assholery and the mods have to call a committtee meeting.  Not that I`m that kind of person. 

[ilumairen]

36 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

 

And that's how political discussions here quickly turn into personal attacks. Point proven.

 

How is the point proven?

 

Did you somehow feel attacked? 

 

 

[dawei]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I collect words from my reading, and assholery is a gem from my collection.  Glad you noticed it!  It`s the kind of word that comes in especially handy when one wants to make a snide insulting comment while appearing to keep to the rules.  Call someone an asshole and the mod squad could bust you without breaking a sweat.  Say that someone engages in a whole lot of assholery and the mods have to call a committtee meeting.  Not that I`m that kind of person. 

 

I once had a thing for words... due to a middle school english teacher.  He would put a thick dictionary on his desk and ask any student to open to any page and ask him the definition.  I never saw him speak wrong.

 

But in College, I tried to apply weird words to composition assignments and teachers didn't like the metaphors I was forcing.   I recall trying to use 'scatalogical' and got a stern warning.   Likely a teacher who would not feel comfortable here ! 

 

[wandelaar]

I am not offended. I am ready to accept criticism of my own (lack of) cultivation, but that is not what this topic is about. And that's why I saw the two quoted remarks as examples of ad hominem arguments (a fallacy that is frequently encountered in heated political debates).

 

I will open a special topic about being judgemental for further discussion on that issue. See here:

 

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by wandelaar

[liminal_luke]

8 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

  Likely a teacher who would not feel comfortable here ! 

 

Probably so. 

 

A Bum recently posted a link to  Mark Griffin`s Hard Light website and I perused his online video offerings.  He has one entitled The Deeper, The Higher.  (That may not be the exact title if I`m remembering wrong.)  I believe that the basic idea is that one has to dig deep to go high.  It`s a sentiment that I`ve found to be true in my own practice life.  Nothing puts a person face-to-face with internal darkness faster than a personal commitment to seek light.  Perhaps that`s why Daoists, more than most, are comfortable discussing things that are a little down and dirty.  Relatively speaking, we`re a pretty scatalogical bunch. 

[ilumairen]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I am not offended. I am ready to accept criticism of my own (lack of) cultivation, but that is not what this topic is about. And that's why I saw the two quoted remarks as examples of ad hominem arguments (a fallacy that is frequently encountered in heated political debates).

 

I will open a special topic about being judgemental for further discussion on that issue.

 

What I wrote was part of my own understanding/practice, and is not a personal argument against, or indictment, of you. 

 

Just as what Aetherous wrote about judging others falls into my own personal understanding and practice. 

 

My practice, and the teachings of TWR are the common denominator in my sharing - not you personally. 

 

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

What I wrote was part of my own understanding/practice, and is not a personal argument against, or indictment, of you. 

 

Just as what Aetherous wrote about judging others falls into my own personal understanding and practice. 

 

My practice, and the teachings of TWR are the common denominator in my sharing - not you personally.

 

Maybe you could write about judging others in my new topic? That could give us something to think about...

[ilumairen]

10 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Maybe you could write about judging others in my new topic? That could give us something to think about...

 

I'll go look now. Thanks. 

[Pilgrim]

4 hours ago, Aetherous said:

There are two camps.
1) A number of us who want to have these discussions amongst each other. We think they're enriching and enlightening, even if we disagree strongly.

2) A number who don't want any of those discussions here at all, regardless of what others want, for the sake of preserving the forum as a more spiritually oriented place.

 

I'd say both camps are comprised of similar numbers of forum members.

 

Both camps can be happy if all political discussion was in a hidden subforum that you had to request permission to see and use (like the men's and women's subforums). As it stands, if political threads end up in the pit, members can still see those threads and thereby (somehow) feel like it's ruining the entire forum. If it were unseen and required work and a conscious decision to see it, it wouldn't have that same effect. And it wouldn't be attempting the impossible, of banning all political discussion everywhere on the site, against the wishes of numerous forum members.

Or how about the people wanting such discussions  just host a website and discuss things there? That is an option.

 

The leniency shown here is remarkable.

 

Over 700 pages worth of proof the staff here is not crazy about or for censorship. 

[zerostao]

14 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I once had a thing for words... due to a middle school english teacher.  He would put a thick dictionary on his desk and ask any student to open to any page and ask him the definition.  I never saw him speak wrong.

 

But in College, I tried to apply weird words to composition assignments and teachers didn't like the metaphors I was forcing.   I recall trying to use 'scatalogical' and got a stern warning.   Likely a teacher who would not feel comfortable here ! 

 

Using scatology aesthetically, not gratuitously, for comic condemnation ensures that exuberance, colorful and wide-ranging vocabulary, and literary variance continue  to contribute to your popularity here. It worked for Rabelais and Francois would feel right at home here on TDB, imo. Rabelais got to the very marrow of meaning by facing head on and offering commentary on all kinds of difficult topics including politics, which he, of course, despised.

 

but seriously, serious as our staff giving careful consideration to the myriad problems we Bums pose to this forum's discourse which we demand, being Bums/ a behind the scenes, rarely scene glimpse of staff at work with due diligence et al keeping this place up and running harmoniously festive and allows the way for all to attain the dao which isnt an attainment at all

Spoiler

 

however, it reveals the luv staff has for this place and us bums

speaking as a former staff myself, i am in the know, so

[Pilgrim]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I think a re-do is needed.  Let's start fresh.... a fresh voice will help

 

Don’t forget the fresh cheese pizza😀

[Stosh]

5 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Or how about the people wanting such discussions  just host a website and discuss things there? That is an option.

 

The leniency shown here is remarkable.

 

Over 700 pages worth of proof the staff here is not crazy about or for censorship. 

They Have used a lot of restraint. 

  But you cant really divide real life people from real life spiritual like that, IMO, you just end up with a phony esoterical new agey pile. 

[Aetherous]

14 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Or how about the people wanting such discussions  just host a website and discuss things there? That is an option.

 

The leniency shown here is remarkable.

 

Over 700 pages worth of proof the staff here is not crazy about or for censorship. 

 

I'm not sure why you're responding this way to that post.

[Pilgrim]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Personally, I love the pitting.  Realistically, there`s not a lot of difference if Trump discussions are in the pit or Off-Grid: Bums who enjoy talking politics can carry on as easily in one place as the other.  So it`s not as if the books have been burned, just moved to a well-ventilated area of the basement.  It`s true that there`s a part of me that would like to see the forum without political conversation altogether but I don`t feel as strongly about it as it might seem.  If there was a vote, I`d happily check the book burning box, but I`m not sneaking around at night pouring out metaphorical gasoline.

 

I`ve been a little annoyed about Trump Talk honestly because I have some expectations about how I should be treated there that were not being met.  Basically, I wanted civility and basic respect as a person and I felt I wasn`t getting it.  It occured to me to report the posts I found offensive, but I didn`t because I thought based on prior experience that doing so would not accomplish anything.  I assumed that any reports would be met with silence, or that I would be told, basically, to buck it up.  The advantage of the pit is that assholery is to be expected.  I don`t feel offended experiencing it there because, well, that`s the place for it.  If I want civility (and I do!) it`s my responsibility to stay out of the pit.  I can deal with that.

 

 

 

 

I view the pitting as a kind way of making a point rather than banning 3bob which is where things were heading from what I can tell and in my opinion shows incredible good character and restraint.

 

The pitting also serves as a wake up call it’s why I decided to take Morphesus red pill.

 

The pitting also serves to help define ownership and managements guidance and direction for the site. 

 

All positive from what I can tell. Of course people can still respond there but also find myself agreeing with others locking it is probably for the better and just plain deleting it might be best of all.

 

The energy there was fascinating it grew and spooled off of the Trump phenomena and became a reflective microcosm of what the media feeds everyone, and how different egos react, truly a study of the humanities.

 

If a new thread devoted to political conversation and current events started it seems to me unlikely the same as has already be seen can be avoided. 

 

Either outside censorship or seggregation would be needed.

 

We already know censorship will be ill received and argued over and whomever takes an admin role will be subject to vitriol and harangue.

 

Perhaps the only way since people will not self govern is to have two threads on current affairs and never permit another Talk (Presidents Name) as a title?

 

There are three members voices I respect above all others in these matters.

 

I would nominate Luke to start a thread for political discussion where like minded people can discuss and give him full admin rights over it.

 

I would nominate Red Cairo to start a thread where like minded people can discuss and give her full admin rights over it.

 

lastly I would give the hardest thread the one of the middle ground to Ilumarian and give her full admin rights over it.

 

In this way all voices may be heard with respect and even come together in good fellowship.

[Pilgrim]

31 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

I'm not sure why you're responding this way to that post.

Oh hi yes sorry can see how that was confusing. First part was in direct reply,  second part about leinancy was just being lazy and typing as thoughts flowed freely.

 

Apologies nothing meant to be directed at you.

[liminal_luke]

28 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

 

I would nominate Luke to start a thread for political discussion where like minded people can discuss and give him full admin rights over it.

 

 

Thanks for the nomination, Pilgrim.  I`m humbled by the notion but respectfully decline and in turn nominate  Trunk and Ralis as co-administrators.  More conservative Bums often criticize left-wingers for our lack of policy know-how and emotional natures.  Putting me in charge would surely lend weight to that idea -- and we liberals are beleaguered enough.

 

In my ideal world, people would actually talk to each other without putting down the character of those they don`t agree with.  That`s the kind of Trump Talk thread I have long argued for and would actually enjoy.  It`s not politics per se that`s poison for the board; it`s the way people talk about politics.  There`s way too much attitude, way too much sneering.  Of course so-called spiritual conversation is not immune from the same conversational disease.  You are so stupid to think that the preheaven green dragon has to copulate with the inner yin of the red phoenix to get to the invisible immortal peach because my teacher said... 

 

If we could talk politics in a respectful way I`d be all for it.  We can`t.  

Edited December 8, 2018 by liminal_luke

[Pilgrim]

43 minutes ago, Stosh said:

They Have used a lot of restraint. 

  But you cant really divide real life people from real life spiritual like that, IMO, you just end up with a phony esoterical new agey pile. 

Now it is my turn to not understand why someone is responding this way. 

 

There are are alternatives to posting political discussion and current events as the media feeds them to us here and still hanging with ones favorite personalities was my point.

 

If it is an ill fit then move the venue😊

 

New agey That is funny isn’t that old ages by now?