Helping ignorant spiritual people

[shortstuff]

I need some help. So I can help. I know sounds weird right?

I have reached the point in my life where I feel like I am here to help others. I am writing a book and I contribute to online message boards / reddit etc. I feel like if I don't help others my time here is wasted. I don't class myself as "enlightened" as I don't think there's actually such a thing, at least in the way that the majority define it. I'm not helping others from an egoic perspective either, though the ego creeps in sometimes and I have to take a break; it's a constant fight and IME this is true of all aspects of life when it comes the the ego and ownership.

 

My main block at the moment is frustration. I know you shouldn't try and change how people think, just be there for people who come seeking advice.

However I have found that even so called "awake" people only want to hear what they think they already know. If you have a way of thinking that ascends their current viewpoint...they don't listen. Instead they attack you; because their ego has taken ownership of their spiritual experience / prowess. I don't mean ascencion as in I am better than them, just that I have been where they are and it took me a lot of hardship to get here. Or maybe that hardship is required by everyone.

How does one not get upset by this; not get disappointed, not think it's just pointless trying to help people selflessly, who throw it back in your face if they don't agree with your advice? Who insult you and demean you..

Should I even bother helping? Sometimes I feel there is a duality between nihilism and just watching the world burn, and selflessly helping people to try and elevate consciousness.

The problem really is that I should probably find a new hobby and take a step back. But anything that doesn't involve helping others, having seen past the veil, feels stupid and a waste of time.


EUGH

Edited December 5, 2018 by shortstuff

[wandelaar]

Wasn't that the same with the Buddha? He also realised that most wouldn't understand or listen. So yes - most people will not appreciate your advise, but some will. 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by wandelaar

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, shortstuff said:

How does one not get upset by this; not get disappointed, not think it's just pointless trying to help people selflessly, who throw it back in your face if they don't agree with your advice? Who insult you and demean you..

Should I even bother helping? ..

The problem really is that I should probably find a new hobby and take a step back. But anything that doesn't involve helping others, having seen past the veil, feels stupid and a waste of time.


EUGH

Seems to me you answered your questions when you wrote 'I should probably find a new hobby and take a step back'. 

 

Living and being is its own preaching.   Way more powerful then a strangers rants on the internet.  It reaches less people but shines truer.  

[rideforever]

If you find yourself fighting with others, struggling with yourself and so on ... in what way would you like to help them be spiritual ?  Especially if you don't believe there is such a thing.

 

What do you wish to help them with ?   What have you mastered in your own life ?

There are always opportunities, but you have to know what you can do, and then do it.

[shortstuff]

OK for example I made the point that it is important to develop compassion for all beings, to a group of people who claim to have developed compassion for all beings. They were talking about having for compassion for people but no compassion for certain others. I stated that it is important that you leave no one out, be that a rapist or a murderer or a saint - all of them are human, therefore all of them deserve compassion no matter what they have done. Especially that most people who commit such acts are not awake; they do not know what they are, they have forgotten... therefore it is important to have empathy for them.

Instead of accepting or questioning this statement I instead recieved hatred, was told to stay away, someone kept messaging me with rape statistics that "prove" all rapists are men and therefore she has no compassion for men...

It seems people have set beliefs even if they are what they call "awake" and they don't want to change their beliefs; they don't want to do the hard inner work required to drop their belief systems and conquer the ego (note I do not say destroy the ego which seems to be a common goal also) and rather than take advice or question their beliefs they would rather attack the person trying to guide them instead. Yet they are asking for help in doing just that! In the end I had to delete my reddit account entirely because this person was commenting on all my posts in all the subreddits that I encourage rapists.

I guess I am frustrated that every time I try to guide people who claim to want help, I get this. I can take ridicule because I live the way I preach - outside of ego, to the best of my ability anyway, but being stalked and harrased???

It's like I have two choices. Get a hobby and watch the world destroy itself. Or whether the storm and try to help those who ask for help, and put up with the abuse.

[sustainablefarm86]

Perhaps you should drop any expectations about it, state things and move on? Tell them fuck off?

 We want to hear what we want to hear and use what is useful only when the time comes where we find it useful and it sort of seems like maybe it makes sense after all 

[Kar3n]

@shortstuff

Ever hear the expression, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"? Same applies to sharing ourselves, our experiences, insight and knowledge with others.

 

If those were your friends treating you poorly, you need to get some new friends. No one should take abuse, even if they are a compassionate person and have empathy for another's plight. You deserve better.

 

Speak your truth with folks and let it go. You do not need to justify it or seek validation from others.

 

Good luck to you and please share your book when you get it written. 😊

[shortstuff]

They weren't friends, just strangers on the internet I thought I could relate to and help, they have gifts but lack the responsibility.

I don't actually have friends "IRL" because the actions of unawakened people disgust me and whilst I have compassion for them as souls, I don't necessarily want to be around them due to the negativity. So I look for people who are spiritual and IME they can be even worse as their ego takes ownership and they become the "i'm better than you cos I meditate" kind of people. Easier to just be on my own, which gets lonely sometimes but all it takes is a walk through a city to realise how fortunate I am.

Thanks all for the great advice. I need to learn to stop caring what people think of my advice. Will crack on with the book. I need to make a thread about that closer to the time too; I don't feel like one should recieve money for such info, however humans seem to think if it is free it is worthless... but I will cross that bridge at the right time!

[wandelaar]

@ shortstuff

 

On another site I had a similar experience once where some guy hated my opinions and as a revenge started posting all kinds of lies in my name! The moderators there didn't stop the trolling and the result was that other posters could no longer see what were my posts and what were those of the troll! So eventually I stopped posting there.

 

Happily the moderation here is much better and one can even put unappreciated Bums on one's ignore-list so that one no longer sees their posts.

 

As to the refusal to accept corrections to one's views even when those views are proven to be false - unhappily that is a quite common phenomenon:  https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect

 

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by wandelaar

[Zen Pig]

I come from a Zen background, but from what little I know of Tibetan Buddhism, I think they call this the "demon ghost cave" .  I have no doubt that you have had awaking or spiritual experiences.  Nothing special.  Most folks who sit and meditate for a long time, have these kinds of experiences.  Then we want to tell others, or teach others,  and from my experience , most folks don't give a bloody rats ass about what we think, or our experience.  that to is fine. In the end, we have to come back to just "carrying water, and chopping wood"  just living our lives.  but if you really need to try to teach, just do it with all your intent, let it burn you out, keep doing it , and if you sucked or,  succeed, just see where that is going. good luck my friend. 

[wandelaar]

Could you tell something more about the "demon ghost cave" ?

[Jeff]

44 minutes ago, shortstuff said:

OK for example I made the point that it is important to develop compassion for all beings, to a group of people who claim to have developed compassion for all beings. They were talking about having for compassion for people but no compassion for certain others. I stated that it is important that you leave no one out, be that a rapist or a murderer or a saint - all of them are human, therefore all of them deserve compassion no matter what they have done. Especially that most people who commit such acts are not awake; they do not know what they are, they have forgotten... therefore it is important to have empathy for them.

Instead of accepting or questioning this statement I instead recieved hatred, was told to stay away, someone kept messaging me with rape statistics that "prove" all rapists are men and therefore she has no compassion for men...

It seems people have set beliefs even if they are what they call "awake" and they don't want to change their beliefs; they don't want to do the hard inner work required to drop their belief systems and conquer the ego (note I do not say destroy the ego which seems to be a common goal also) and rather than take advice or question their beliefs they would rather attack the person trying to guide them instead. Yet they are asking for help in doing just that! In the end I had to delete my reddit account entirely because this person was commenting on all my posts in all the subreddits that I encourage rapists.

I guess I am frustrated that every time I try to guide people who claim to want help, I get this. I can take ridicule because I live the way I preach - outside of ego, to the best of my ability anyway, but being stalked and harrased???

It's like I have two choices. Get a hobby and watch the world destroy itself. Or whether the storm and try to help those who ask for help, and put up with the abuse.

 

I think when you want to help or teach like that it becomes important to be able to know/read the level of clarity (or energy flow) of the the people you are trying to help or explain things too. When you know your audience, you can appropriately tailor the discussion (or not even bother because they wont get it  ).

 

Best of luck to you.

[shortstuff]

Well I thought it was a suitable place.

And I am writing books because I have read a lot and they repeat the same stuff but don't give any advice like the advice I offered in the example. They tell people what they want to read, the comfortable truths, and make lots of $$$ from the books... I don't care about $$$ I just want to elevate consciousness. And doing so requires inner work.

Maybe my attitude is wrong though, I am not ignorant enough to think I know it all. Maybe these books don't tell people hard truths because they aren't true? Maybe you should hate rapists and have no compassion for them? Maybe evil doesn't have to exist for people to know its opposite?

I guess it makes me doubt myself.

[dwai]

The sun shines for all. The blind can’t see. Those with eyes can. If one is asleep the light from the sun eventually wakes them up, simply by shining. No “effort” is required. 

[Cheshire Cat]

Hi, 

I'm Joe and I have ISPS (ignorant spiritual person syndrome). 

 

None has the spiritual knowledge that I want and I don't care how spiritual things should be done. The important thing is that my spiritual side serves my life well. 

 

Also, I think that you don't understand compassion at all. 

You don't have to be compassionate because it will help Jesus to love you more. You can choose to cultivate the emotional feeling of compassion because it can grow stronger than the most pleasurable sensations that you currently have. It doesn't really matter to have compassion for everyone: the important part is how strong your compassion is. 

 

Actually, to have an uncontrollable feeling of compassion for everyone is a subtle mental disease. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Cheshire Cat

[Zork]

What does "ignorant spiritual people" even mean?

People either interpret the world based on the self or without it. There is no inbetween.

Good luck in finding the latter in fora on the internet.

[rideforever]

Alright, it's a great and timely story ... who's got some answers.

 

Compassion For All Beings

There is something very smelly about this idea, that's for sure.  After all what business is it for anyone to compassionate all beings - buzz off !!!  Non-interference, non-patronising.   Also, underneath this idea is a lot of victimhood, oh we are so sad, we need to be compassionate.   But you know we are bloodythirsty murderers by our history, so it's ... a complex subject.   Also roses have thorns and plants secrete poisions .... that's one reason we cook vegetables, because lettuce wants to kill you it does not want to be eaten by a vegan, it doesn't want to be eaten period.  So .... a better answer is required.
Also I remember Buddha himself was quite victimy himself, right at the end under the Bodhi tree he was saying "why should I be enlightened, why do I deserve it, I am smelly" .... but then he touched the earth with his hand and thought "well the Earth made me and the Earth says so" ... and then he got enlightened.   So don't be so smelly, I think is the message.

 

Oh The Internet

Internet is where minds talk and argue, not such a great place for Real conversations .... also makes your own mind go wild like tiger who stapled his foot by mistake.   Many people just are not interested, like at all.

 

The Leaf That Grew in Midair

If you want to give people a new leaf (new understanding) it must grow on the tree or branch that they are.   It must be an extension of what they are now, extending just a little bit .... otherwise it's too far.

 

Where The F*** Do I Go Now

Good question, any answers yet ?!
One answer is to enter the flow, go with the flow, let life guide you, also ask for help.  Let life tell you what needs doing and then do it, after all the whole place is a school so help out where help is needed ... because the project is a big one, not just about you.  
And wherever you are in the big Christmas Tree of God, it is always good to know where you can fit in, even if that means cleaning the toilets.

 

And Then LOA

I definitely think it's worthwhile trying to magic law of attraction into making your destiny golden.

 

Go Deeper

Anyway we are all going to die, sort of, and maybe it's the time to go deep into the well and sort of go even deeper until you are free.

 

 

[rideforever]

Anyway, enough worrying, remember to Sail the Ocean Blue and let Your Balls Whistle Free ;

We sail the ocean blue,
And our saucy ship's a beauty;
We're sober men and true,
And attentive to our duty.

When the balls whistle free
O'er the bright blue sea,
We stand to our guns all day;
When at anchor we ride
On the Portsmouth tide,
We have plenty of time for play.

 

[Zen Pig]

15 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Could you tell something more about the "demon ghost cave" ?

The Demon Ghost cave relates to folks who have had some kind of "awakening" or spiritual seeing into the suchness of life, and then decides to teach, or that he/she is now enlightened or at the finial destination.  So there ego, starts to kick in, thinking that they have found the truth, or the final reality, which usually, in the western world becomes a kind of nihilism, a kind of seeing that nothing is real, and the world is all illusion, or empty.  While these ideas and experiences can be helpful,  one must keep looking,  and not let ego bubble up making us think that we really know something.  So we get stuck in this cave of our own making,  where nothing matters, where we stop interacting in the world, because we believe that it is all empty or illusion.  We also get this big ego, thinking that we need to teach others the "truth", and then start charging money, and banging our students .  I even met one so called guru who told his students that "if they had sex with him, his sperm would enlighten them"  LOL,  funny if not so sad.   In Zen it talks about coming full circle, where "The sky is blue, and the grass is green",  or back to the suchness of re-engaging in this life to the fullest.

[rideforever]

It's a beautiful thing when you interact with the high and low, without distinction ... in each circumstance you seek only to be a conduit and make the river flow ... when with the lowest basest most confused and violent and be the conduit, with the ladybirds and the elm trees, with the rain, and brooding clouds, with the confused and agenda-ridden, yet hold the centre, inside your well is clean and deepening, surrendering, aligned with, springing forth.
What a fortune it is for someone on the ordinary course of life with no interest in spirituality to encounter a bridge-without-distinction, then there is only the growth of the true universe with the husk of the old, and willingness and trust.
Then one can walk on the main road, if he has even a little sense.
One must know one's limits, and refresh the well, privately at night one can do many things in those hours ... and in the morning not tell a soul.  Then one can be trusted, and one can trust.

[faceless]

21 hours ago, shortstuff said:

They weren't friends, just strangers on the internet I thought I could relate to and help, they have gifts but lack the responsibility.

I don't actually have friends "IRL" because the actions of unawakened people disgust me and whilst I have compassion for them as souls, I don't necessarily want to be around them due to the negativity. So I look for people who are spiritual and IME they can be even worse as their ego takes ownership and they become the "i'm better than you cos I meditate" kind of people. Easier to just be on my own, which gets lonely sometimes but all it takes is a walk through a city to realise how fortunate I am.

Thanks all for the great advice. I need to learn to stop caring what people think of my advice. Will crack on with the book. I need to make a thread about that closer to the time too; I don't feel like one should recieve money for such info, however humans seem to think if it is free it is worthless... but I will cross that bridge at the right time!

 

Hello shortstuff,

 

If "unawakened people" disgust you, it is because you are unawakened yourself.

Your frustration is a projection of what you feel for yourself. Your disgust of people's ignorance is your disgust of yours. Please give yourself the chance to love yourself, my friend. Everything unfolds at the right pace. As we wake up, we eventually transcend "me and them." In that transcendental place, you see others as facets of "you" to some degree and you see their ignorance as yours, you give it compassion and acceptance, because you understand that this is the best thing to do, because you understand that you are the one who gets to decide whether you want to beat yourself up or liberate yourself.

 

As far as friendships go, you obviously want to be around people who can understand you deeply. As long as you are not the most enlightened being on Earth, there are great people that you can meet. Pray to be guided to the right people. Also some suggestions: look for temples, devotional events (kirtans, etc). "Worst case" scenario: if you were truly the most enlightened being on Earth, you'd have transcended loneliness long ago, God would be your friend. 

 

Hope this finds you well,

Blessings to you. 

[Nungali]

On 06/12/2018 at 9:59 AM, wandelaar said:

@ shortstuff

 

On another site I had a similar experience once where some guy hated my opinions and as a revenge started posting all kinds of lies in my name! The moderators there didn't stop the trolling and the result was that other posters could no longer see what were my posts and what were those of the troll! So eventually I stopped posting there.

 

Happily the moderation here is much better and one can even put unappreciated Bums on one's ignore-list so that one no longer sees their posts.

 

As to the refusal to accept corrections to one's views even when those views are proven to be false - unhappily that is a quite common phenomenon:  https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Backfire_effect

 

 

 

Damn frustrating that ! 

 

And with all the new wacko stuff around nowadays  ( flat earth, etc   )  -  backfire effect is strong  , its easy to become part of 'The Conspiracy' if you offer any info to the contrary .  They have constructed a complex maze of cop outs and evasions and other imagined scenarios   to counter any 'rational assault' .  Its  a kind of  'mass psychosis' .

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Nungali

[johndoe2012]

On 12/5/2018 at 9:53 PM, shortstuff said:

My main block at the moment is frustration. I know you shouldn't try and change how people think, just be there for people who come seeking advice.

 

Ramana Maharshi would ask "Who is frustrated?"

 

Look into the core of frustration and see who is there.