On Mo Pai

[pegasus1992]

Something that has been bugging me for some time now is the divergence between Mo Pai and other practices, namely that in the former the energy they seem to discuss seems to be in some ways at odds. Upon researching and cross comparing texts I have come to a conclusion in my mind at least to suggest

 

(1) Mo Pai cultivates the pure forms of Yin and Yang qi, whereas most systems work with the distorted ones...what i mean by this is the that most systems cultivate Yin & Yang Qi in the following manner

 

 

 

By contrast, Mo Pai seems to cultivate the following

 

 

Now this is only an assumption, but it is one I base on the following

 

(1) Chang stating he had no idea when Kosta presented him with the former symbol

(2) Damo mitchell has repeatedly  that when  pure Yang Qi (heaven Qi) is accessed , the laogong light up and you will enter a period where you lose sensation, similar to what Mo Pai level 1 and 2 symptoms is supposed to be)

(3) Chang stating about sending the ball of pure yang down to the perineum corresponds with Damo, where he stated that pure yang will attract pure Yin. Thus by sending down the pure yang, you are allowing the proportionate amount of yin to gather. Also because the yang sits at the perineum, which is the entry point, it further prevents any distortion

(4) Damo confirms basically everything Chang stated as true, including the cords of the LDT

 

Now im not at all suggesting im right, but is it merely over-analysis, or does anyone else see discrepancies in MP and other systems?

[Zork]

Mo pai is not a taoist system. It is an advanced shammanic practice. Hope this clears things up. And please please please don't beat dead horses
Have a nice day.

 

[dawei]

I think it is over-analyzing to some degree.   Stick with an advanced practice that seeks such outcomes and one should be able to get there if they have what it takes.  The problem is, trying to do it without what it takes makes it maybe the wrong practice.  

 

A few points I recall from the book on him:  

1. He was like a guru to the students and had to 'help' them at times in some tests.   So it seems a close working relationship, like having a guru is the true way.

2. He went into the woods to devote himself to a certain level and by cutting himself off from the world he cut down years of training otherwise... so , if one has what it takes.

3. I only recall him talking about healing people face to face but not remote healing.  Yet, lots of people can do remote healing.  Even can do remote connection to deities or find colony beings without help.    So, if he was working with pure Yin and Yang (primordial stuff), why doesn't he just heal remotely instead of relying on inclusion of acupuncture as well.

 

He can do stuff others can't.  And others can do stuff he can't.  

 

I think the lineage traces to Mencius and Chang follows an Indonesian method.  So, not taoist is correct.  

[flowing hands]

20 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

Something that has been bugging me for some time now is the divergence between Mo Pai and other practices, namely that in the former the energy they seem to discuss seems to be in some ways at odds. Upon researching and cross comparing texts I have come to a conclusion in my mind at least to suggest

 

(1) Mo Pai cultivates the pure forms of Yin and Yang qi, whereas most systems work with the distorted ones...what i mean by this is the that most systems cultivate Yin & Yang Qi in the following manner

 

 

 

By contrast, Mo Pai seems to cultivate the following

 

 

Now this is only an assumption, but it is one I base on the following

 

(1) Chang stating he had no idea when Kosta presented him with the former symbol

(2) Damo mitchell has repeatedly  that when  pure Yang Qi (heaven Qi) is accessed , the laogong light up and you will enter a period where you lose sensation, similar to what Mo Pai level 1 and 2 symptoms is supposed to be)

(3) Chang stating about sending the ball of pure yang down to the perineum corresponds with Damo, where he stated that pure yang will attract pure Yin. Thus by sending down the pure yang, you are allowing the proportionate amount of yin to gather. Also because the yang sits at the perineum, which is the entry point, it further prevents any distortion

(4) Damo confirms basically everything Chang stated as true, including the cords of the LDT

 

Now im not at all suggesting im right, but is it merely over-analysis, or does anyone else see discrepancies in MP and other systems?

 

 

I think it is very easy to fool oneself. How do you know what is "pure" yang and what is "pure" Yin?

One really can't separate them, they only exist because their counter exists. So what you have written is basically nonsense, taken from someones else nonsense and so the lies are spread by those that seek fame and confirmation from others.

[pegasus1992]

 

15 hours ago, Zork said:

Mo pai is not a taoist system. It is an advanced shammanic practice. Hope this clears things up. And please please please don't beat dead horses
Have a nice day.

 

 

What exactly constitutes a Daoist system in your opinion? Also, I didnt explicitly refer to it as one, I was actually contrasting it with them rather.

 

And i certainly dont intend on flogging any dead horses, but discussion around past evidence and contrasting with more current publicly available recent knowledge is ok, isnt it?

 

4 hours ago, dawei said:

I think it is over-analyzing to some degree.   Stick with an advanced practice that seeks such outcomes and one should be able to get there if they have what it takes.  The problem is, trying to do it without what it takes makes it maybe the wrong practice.  

 

A few points I recall from the book on him:  

1. He was like a guru to the students and had to 'help' them at times in some tests.   So it seems a close working relationship, like having a guru is the true way.

2. He went into the woods to devote himself to a certain level and by cutting himself off from the world he cut down years of training otherwise... so , if one has what it takes.

3. I only recall him talking about healing people face to face but not remote healing.  Yet, lots of people can do remote healing.  Even can do remote connection to deities or find colony beings without help.    So, if he was working with pure Yin and Yang (primordial stuff), why doesn't he just heal remotely instead of relying on inclusion of acupuncture as well.

 

He can do stuff others can't.  And others can do stuff he can't.  

 

I think the lineage traces to Mencius and Chang follows an Indonesian method.  So, not taoist is correct.  

 

I have no idea if it is indonesian, he did state his master brought it from china so...that would remain an unanswered question

 

1 hour ago, flowing hands said:

 

 

I think it is very easy to fool oneself. How do you know what is "pure" yang and what is "pure" Yin?

One really can't separate them, they only exist because their counter exists. So what you have written is basically nonsense, taken from someones else nonsense and so the lies are spread by those that seek fame and confirmation from others.

 

They are actually the same thing, they exist on opposite ends of the same continuum in my opinion....pure would be the extremity....so if we quantified it, 0 being Pure Yin and 100 being Pure Yang

 

On an electromagnetic spectrum, we could call one pure magnetism, the other pure electric

On a light spectrum, pure red to pure blue (yet still on the one continuum)

From a temporal perspective (Past to future, yet time itself is the continuum)

 

The point is I was making was that the cultivation was of extremities..its nothing to do with separation

 

As a quantified example  cultivation of Pure Yin (0) and Pure Yang (100) as opposed to Distorted Yin (33) and Distorted Yang (66)...Please note im not suggesting those latter figures accurate, they are merely just an example

[flowing hands]

12 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

 

 

What exactly constitutes a Daoist system in your opinion? Also, I didnt explicitly refer to it as one, I was actually contrasting it with them rather.

 

And i certainly dont intend on flogging any dead horses, but discussion around past evidence and contrasting with more current publicly available recent knowledge is ok, isnt it?

 

 

I have no idea if it is indonesian, he did state his master brought it from china so...that would remain an unanswered question

 

 

They are actually the same thing, they exist on opposite ends of the same continuum in my opinion....pure would be the extremity....so if we quantified it, 0 being Pure Yin and 100 being Pure Yang

 

On an electromagnetic spectrum, we could call one pure magnetism, the other pure electric

On a light spectrum, pure red to pure blue (yet still on the one continuum)

From a temporal perspective (Past to future, yet time itself is the continuum)

 

The point is I was making was that the cultivation was of extremities..its nothing to do with separation

 

As a quantified example  cultivation of Pure Yin (0) and Pure Yang (100) as opposed to Distorted Yin (33) and Distorted Yang (66)...Please note im not suggesting those latter figures accurate, they are merely just an example

 

How can they? All of us are made up from both, the air we breathe is both. The only reason why we know that they exist is by the fact that many life, but not all, are divided slightly into yin and yang. We could say scientifically that electrons are divided before they make a whole. But going back to life it is more to do with the environment and continuation of the species that yin and yang seem to be different. Energy is energy and it is only tainted by the people who use it. The Dao is the same whatever, there is no better yin or yang, its all the same.

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said:

 

They are actually the same thing, they exist on opposite ends of the same continuum in my opinion....pure would be the extremity....so if we quantified it, 0 being Pure Yin and 100 being Pure Yang

 

On an electromagnetic spectrum, we could call one pure magnetism, the other pure electric

On a light spectrum, pure red to pure blue (yet still on the one continuum)

From a temporal perspective (Past to future, yet time itself is the continuum)

 

The point is I was making was that the cultivation was of extremities..its nothing to do with separation

 

As a quantified example  cultivation of Pure Yin (0) and Pure Yang (100) as opposed to Distorted Yin (33) and Distorted Yang (66)...Please note im not suggesting those latter figures accurate, they are merely just an example

If you go 100% yin, you will get yang. if you go 100% yang, you will get yin. In fact, yin and yang always have a little of the opposite in them because otherwise they cannot exist (yang will dissipate into emptiness and yin will collapse into emptiness).

[thelerner]

Just now, dwai said:

If you go 100% yin, you will get yang. if you go 100% yang, you will get yin. In fact, yin and yang always have a little of the opposite in them because otherwise they cannot exist (yang will dissipate into emptiness and yin will collapse into emptiness).

and isn't that why visually there's white dot and black dot in each opposing colors center..

 

Course you can only take a metaphor, especially a visual one so far.    Yin and Yang are very useful fundamental concepts but are so big that its easy too high fallutin' with them.. ie it often works best when applying to a specific action.  Otherwise its gets too abstract, at least for my tastes. 

[dawei]

19 minutes ago, dwai said:

If you go 100% yin, you will get yang. if you go 100% yang, you will get yin. In fact, yin and yang always have a little of the opposite in them because otherwise they cannot exist (yang will dissipate into emptiness and yin will collapse into emptiness).

 

IMO, that is duality speak.  

[dwai]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

 

IMO, that is duality speak.  

Only when taken as separate “things”. It is always yin-yang or taiji. But mostly discussions about it is pedagogy.

 

[voidisyinyang]

On 12/5/2018 at 5:27 PM, pegasus1992 said:

Something that has been bugging me for some time now is the divergence between Mo Pai and other practices, namely that in the former the energy they seem to discuss seems to be in some ways at odds. Upon researching and cross comparing texts I have come to a conclusion in my mind at least to suggest

 

(1) Mo Pai cultivates the pure forms of Yin and Yang qi, whereas most systems work with the distorted ones...what i mean by this is the that most systems cultivate Yin & Yang Qi in the following manner

 

 

 

By contrast, Mo Pai seems to cultivate the following

 

 

Now this is only an assumption, but it is one I base on the following

 

(1) Chang stating he had no idea when Kosta presented him with the former symbol

(2) Damo mitchell has repeatedly  that when  pure Yang Qi (heaven Qi) is accessed , the laogong light up and you will enter a period where you lose sensation, similar to what Mo Pai level 1 and 2 symptoms is supposed to be)

(3) Chang stating about sending the ball of pure yang down to the perineum corresponds with Damo, where he stated that pure yang will attract pure Yin. Thus by sending down the pure yang, you are allowing the proportionate amount of yin to gather. Also because the yang sits at the perineum, which is the entry point, it further prevents any distortion

(4) Damo confirms basically everything Chang stated as true, including the cords of the LDT

 

Now im not at all suggesting im right, but is it merely over-analysis, or does anyone else see discrepancies in MP and other systems?

 

yes what you state is true - only  you are just starting to scratch the surface. When JOhn Chang said he did not recognize the taiji symbol that is because his lineage is apparently very ancient.

 

This is the oldest taiji symbol - from the Tang dynasty:

 

 

So you can see that indeed John Chang is correct.

 

As for what it means - well that requires more study. But as far as the book on John Chang - what the book states is that for most people the channels are running parallel. So then the more you build up the yang qi then the more yin qi you can store. But the hard part is to condense or fuse the yin and yang qi together - that is the equivalent of beyond chapter six in the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality. So that is the Yuan Qi stage - the author of that book - the Greek student Kosta - he states he was never able to reach this stage since he was not able to maintain celibacy.

 

So you can study the book I mentioned for more details and also the book Foundations of Internal Alchemy - and other books by Pregadio. I actually confronted Pregadio about the very issue you are referring to since Pregadio insists there is a "static hub" at the center. But he's relying on a later Taiji symbol - not the original Taiji symbol. So John Chang's understand is not only more authentic but based on his success in training as well.

[Zork]

8 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

What exactly constitutes a Daoist system in your opinion? Also, I didnt explicitly refer to it as one, I was actually contrasting it with them rather.

A taoist system is one that uses taoist philosophy.

This thread is posted on the taoist subforum.

 

Mo pai just uses the same terms as daoists. The actual concepts for yin and yang are different. Also indicative is the fact that there is no mention of the 8 trigrams or the I ching in Mo Pai.

 

Mo pai is another philosophical system rival to Confucius's and Lao Tzu's.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozi

 

Western hermeticism also uses the two opposing forces but they don't have the same philosophy behind them.

 

Tl;dr you are using a taoist emblem and taoist philisophy to explain a non taoist system.

What is the point exactly?

8 hours ago, pegasus1992 said:

And i certainly dont intend on flogging any dead horses, but discussion around past evidence and contrasting with more current publicly available recent knowledge is ok, isnt it?

I am afraid you are flogging the dead horse after all.

There is no new evidence on mo pai that has arisen during the last 15 years. Also mo pai is closed for westerners. So what we believe about it is moot point.

All the info you want is available anyway in the forum in Personal Practice Diaries of members.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Zork

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-12-06 at 12:27 AM, pegasus1992 said:

 

 ** Pai cultivates the pure forms of Yin and Yang qi, whereas most systems work with the distorted ones..

Later in your post, you equalled pure Yang with Heaven Qi, so... 

 

Fire and Water are less extreme then Heaven and Earth, at least in my practice. 

I find it interesting that you haven't found Heaven and Earth in "most systems". I have only scratched on one daoist system and it was the first that was taught, and I have gone deeper in one buddhist system and there it was again. Taught later in the system, probably because I didn't learn that the seminar way but instead learned it from the basics up. 

 

Of course, one could use the fine old argument "the Yang I am taking about is not the yang you are taking about", which is a real discussion killer. The Yang I am taking about is essentially the same in both traditions mentioned above though. 

 

Later on you put magnetism and electricity as polarities. I see that often here on TDB. 

In my experience, as in my practice, the north and south pole of a bar magnet are functionally opposites, while electricity would be the result of this. 

 

Or, as the zapping club say: Merge yin and yang to become a true zapper. 

(Actually, I have less than 60 days of my current practice to do and then I will spend a serious amount of time to see if the method in my tradition actually can accomplish this). Probably not, I do not think zapping is my destiny, but the method do other things as well so it will not be a waste of time. 

 

Quote

(4) Damo confirms basically everything Chang stated as true, including the cords of the LDT

Yes, in my PPD I have several aspects of the practice where Damo Mitchell is in line with the Mo Pai litterature. 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Hey @Mudfoot, whats zapping?

[Mudfoot]

The almighty I point at you and you feel my sith power. 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Oh? Niiice! Hope you get good results with the sithing zapps!

 

Well, i’m out then since everything i’ve ever read or watched about Mo Pai made my stomach churn ominously.

[Mudfoot]

Some of the finest posts in TDB history have been featured in classic Mo Pai threads 😁

[MooNiNite]

Condensing the LTD and breaking the cords as a part of Mo Pai is pretty farfetched

[freeform]

On 25/12/2018 at 2:46 PM, Rocky Lionmouth said:

made my stomach churn ominously.

 

Sounds like your Dan Tien was activated 

 

I was mentioning in another post the difficulties we (with a western mindset) tend to have with these terms.

 

Yin Qi and Yang Qi are specific terms - very specific. And they are being confused by Yin and Yang as terms of quality. Two fundamentally different things... like ‘sugar’ and ‘sweetness’.

[thelerner]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

I was mentioning in another post the difficulties we (with a western mindset) tend to have with these terms.

 

Yin Qi and Yang Qi are specific terms - very specific. And they are being confused by Yin and Yang as terms of quality. Two fundamentally different things... like ‘sugar’ and ‘sweetness’.

  Could you give us your definition?  Also at the heart of cultivation is storage.  Some see it as the goal, others disregard it for circulation.  What are your thoughts.  Thanks.

 

 

Coming from a Japanese martial background I tend to interpret Qi as intention which is generally not keeping with the complexities of Chinese systems and paradigms. 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

Could you give us your definition?  Also at the heart of cultivation is storage.  Some see it as the goal, others disregard it for circulation.  What are your thoughts.  Thanks.

 

Honestly, I don’t think I could do it justice with my explanation. I’m not a particularly scholarly, theoretical type. The way I discovered what they are is through practice...

 

At one point I started to feel electric shocks on the surface of my skin during a certain phase of practice along with a huge increase in ‘vitality’ - in the sense that I wouldn’t get tired. I was told that I’m starting to build my own Yang Qi.

 

I’ve also had transmissions of Yang Qi from my teachers which feels like a really strong, unpleasant electric shock moving deep in the body and making my muscles jump and spasm (different to spontaneous movement though). Like touching an electric cattle fence (and not letting go for way too long!)

 

Yin Qi - again from specific practices that build it... feels like magnetic waves moving through the body and then beginning to compress under a strong pressure - really quite painful again.

 

This is in the Qi Gong perspective - in Nei Dan it’s slightly different from what I understand. I don’t do alchemy yet. By the sounds of things, Mo Pai is a Nei Dan based school - with perhaps a focus on developing abilities rather than Spirit. Not of interest to me personally.

 

Regarding storage... it’s important at the late-intermediate level of practice. Circulation is important at all times. Bear in mind that I’ve only met a handful of people at the intermediate level of practice as it’s defined in my tradition (that includes most teachers that we all know of).

 

In the beginning the most important part is building the structure of the body and opening up. Next is activating the energetic aspects of the body. Then building the Dan tien - the container... Then you increase the body’s Qi production... and only then you start ‘collecting’ and storing... Then compressing... and so on... Each of these stages can take years of correct practice and there’s obviously many bits I’ve missed - harmonising, balancing, purging etc.

 

Qi as intention in external martial arts practice - yeah that sounds right in that context. Qi can also be everything from action to information to movement to an actual ‘substance’ depending on context. But the contexts don’t cross over... as in it’s not that Qi is action but also a substance. This is why people think it’s such an abstract thing - it’s not. It’s very clear and precise within its own context.

[vonkrankenhaus]

On 12/6/2018 at 11:47 PM, voidisyinyang said:

This is the oldest taiji symbol - from the Tang dynasty:

 

 

This is just the TaiJi from early diagrams like Zhou Dunyi.

These are trigrams. 

 

Trigram for Fire is on Left, and trigram for Water is on Right.

 

So in this diagram, Fire/Water is the immediate symbol of Polarity.

Beside this in diagram, at sides - Zhou Dunyi wrote "Yang is Motion" on Yang side, and "Yin is rest" on Yin side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Edited December 30, 2018 by vonkrankenhaus