Daoist - Buddhist Nutrician?

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi Guys,

 

I dont know if this has been asked but im looking for any good books or information to learn to cook traditional Daoist food for cultivation (nei dan) and good health ( Internal and external kung fu).

 

Anyone got any good books or can share information on this as im changing my diet very soon but was looking to give up the meat. Ive tried many times but unsuccessful!!!

 

WYG

[agharta]

Oh, boy, another "meat vs. vegetarianism" thread.

 

Don't give up the meat. Vegetarianism is a Buddhist philosophy, and was unknown in China until Buddhism showed up. If you're talking about eating for health, who do you think is going to get it right, the Buddhists, who disdain the body, or the Taoists, who seek physical immortality?

 

I know I've posted about this before, but it's worth repeating. Humans are natural meat/fish-eaters. The healthiest traditional groups like the Masai, the Eskimo, and the traditional Maori-before-processed-foods all were big meat and fish eaters. These groups never had heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, etc. until the switched to processed and mostly-plant-based diets. Some traditional groups were close to vegetarian, but they were not nearly as healthy as their more meat/fish-scarfing neighbors. I have studied this for years, and Max and Plato can confirm that.

[Pero]

... the Buddhists, who disdain the body...

[Hern Heng]

i'm curious how one purports to know whether vegetarianism was known in China before Buddhism or not. This is pure speculation. Clearly Buddhism made it more popular, but there were vegetarian traditions throughout the world long before Buddhism.

 

Moreover, if you eat meat then you eat meat but bear in mind that there have been plenty of Daoists who do not eat meat. Sun, Lu-T'ang was vegetarian, many Daoist martial artists besides him have been, so was Li, Ching-Yuen, the famous Bagua and T'aiji practitioner, OMD and 256 year old "immortal" (documented by the Chinese government and documented up to about 200 years by the New York Times and Time Magazine.

 

Might be worth considering, as most of the "immortals" who put such a heavy emphasis on how important meat is to your diet end up dying before they reach Bob Barker's age. Just saying, don't believe what every TCM book tells you; those author's have a bias just like everyone else; if they eat meat, they want to justify why it fits best within the framework of TCM to do so.

 

Lastly, and humorously, i've seen a lot of talk here about "Karma," and indeed there is talk of "Fa" throughout religious Daoist history (since Buddhism came to China). Still, i haven't noticed anyone shrugging this notion off as a "Buddhist" concept.

 

Truth is truth, no matter where it came from and no matter who commented on it.

[mYTHmAKER]

 

These groups never had heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, etc. until the switched to processed and mostly-plant-based diets. Some traditional groups were close to vegetarian, but they were not nearly as healthy as their more meat/fish-scarfing neighbors. I have studied this for years, and Max and Plato can confirm that.

 

So you had a bad experience or were lacking somewhere in your diet that does not mean it is wrong for everyone.

That doesn't decide what the natural diet of man is.

It is the processed foods which are most detremental to health - do not include plant based in this catagory.

The Seven Day Adventists - vegetarians- live longer, on average, than most other people in the USA.

None of the above mentioned groups ate anywhere the number of calories we do today.

Studying something for years does not an expert make.

Dr Joel Fuhrman MD, a vegetarian, has said he really doesn't know whether being a vegetarian is healthier

than eating a limited amount of flesh. I think the number is 12 ounces a week. Once you go above that

disease kicks in.

Max and Plato please confirm

[Hern Heng]

There is no doubt that vegetarians in equal environments, with roughly equivalent exercise patterns, stress levels and the like are healthier in the long run than meat eaters.

 

Human beings are primates. Primates are primarily equipt for a plant based diet. Our rabbit-horse-cow-like flat front teeth, long digestive tracts, our rotating jaw (for grinding), lack of panting (sweating), lack of instinctual urge to hunger for a living animal, and so on, are all natural indications that meat eating is contrary to how we emerged on the evolutionary scene.

 

Some primates eat some meat, but none eat a lot. Still, though we "can" eat meat, it does not mean that we are appropriately equipt for it, nor does it mean that in the long run detrimental effects will not manifest. In the short term you do get benefit from limited meat eating, but in the long run the best effects are from a moderately hot plant based diet. If anyone can show me a meat eater who's lived into his third century then i'll gladly reconsider. Interestingly, the patriarchs of the Torah who were said to live for so many centuries did so (according to the text), on a plant based diet. i'd find it unlikely that all of this is coincidental.

Edited February 10, 2008 by Hern Heng

[agharta]

Guys, I know you're well-meaning. However,...

 

The mostly-meat-eating Masai lived right next door to the mostly-vegetarian Kikuyu. The Masai were stronger, better warriors, and had, in many cases, no cavities at all. The Kikuyu had 13 times the rate of cavities that the Masai did. Not 13%, 13 times.

 

I think I'll keep my teeth, thank you very much. And yes, I can provide links.

[Andrei]

Anyone got any good books or can share information on this as im changing my diet very soon but was looking to give up the meat. Ive tried many times but unsuccessful!!!

 

 

"Tao de l'alimentation" by Nicole Tremblay PhD in psychology and clinical acupuncturist, a student of Mantak Chia. Unfortunately the book is in French, fortunately I am familiar with French language.

 

Taoist diet does not give up meat. In taoist diet meat is considered a metal energy. Grains are considered fire energy, vegetables are considered earth energy, fruits are considered wood energy and beans are considered water energy. Also each category can be classified by the five elements, so meats can be categorized also as fire, earth, metal, water, wood. Obviously the foods are categorized as yang and yin.

[Hern Heng]

Guys, I know you're well-meaning. However,...

 

The mostly-meat-eating Masai lived right next door to the mostly-vegetarian Kikuyu. The Masai were stronger, better warriors, and had, in many cases, no cavities at all. The Kikuyu had 13 times the rate of cavities that the Masai did. Not 13%, 13 times.

 

I think I'll keep my teeth, thank you very much. And yes, I can provide links.

 

You can build more muscle with meat, there is no doubt about this. You can boost your testosterone as well with meat, there is no doubt about this. The question is longevity. Steroids can make you very strong for a time, but long term they are bad for you. It is similar (though an extreme example), with meat. It is very steroidal, but it is ultimately the sort of thing that tends to tax the glands, and Kidneys sooner than a plant based diet. Again, i'm not just talking theory, i'm talking about documented instances of longevity.

 

Cavity-wise, i've never come across any notion of vegetables causing cavities. Traditionally, pelu bark and miswak have been the sorts of vegetation-derived sources of CLEANING teeth before tooth brushes. This seems exaggerated.

 

Meat can fit into any dietary balancing equation, but it is not essential. Again, if it was then ol' Li would have been dead a long time before he was and Sun would have had his ass kicked over and over. To me, real world examples speak louder than book theory.

[passenger1980]

I became a vegetarian some months ago. Torturing and killing an animal for your own appetite and/or religious belief is morally wrong, period. However most of us get away without having to get our hands dirty. At the end, you only have to pick it up at the supermarket.

 

That doesn't accumulate a lot of karma in my opinion, but we are guilty of hypocrisy. We are supporting something that is morally wrong. You are indirectly paying people to kill animals so you can eat them. I don't think someone here will kill a cow just to eat his precious burger, or a pig just to throw some tasty bacon on it. If there wasn't something morally wrong, there wouldn't be any problem about doing that...

 

If you still have doubts, i suggest to watch Earthlings...

 

For me, it was a tremendous effort over the years to finally become a vegetarian, i live in a region where eating meat is part of the culture and everyday life, a vegetarian is VERY rare. So i understand how meat eaters want to hang on their belief, trying to justify it "it's natural", "it's life". It isn't, it's your choice.

[agharta]

I never said meat was necessary. I think seafoods will do the job just fine. For that matter, I think that a lacto-vegetarian diet, if you have sufficiently good quality raw dairy and the right plants foods of sufficient quality, is plenty good. However....that's a big if, just yet. The real danger is veganism. If you're not at least getting some eggs, or dairy, or fish eggs, or fish/shellfish, over time, you run a real risk of brain deterioration. Panic attacks, emotional problems, anxiety, early dementia...serious issues.

 

It's documented that the Masai had 1/13 the cavities of the Kikuyu, and I seriously, seriously doubt that a diet that causes 13 times as many cavities as another one will be a better diet for longevity. Wake up.

[freesun]

Yes, you need to at least eat diary products (if not meat) in your diet for the B12 vitamin if nothing else. It cannot be found in a useable form in plants and cannot be synthesized by the body.

Personally I would be really interested in a vegetarian chinese cuisine book that adheres to the five elements philosophy. I already cook mainly indian (while paying attention to balance the doshas) with much success (and its yummy to boot!!!).

Is it even possible to do proper five elements cooking without using meat? I would be curious. Chinese vegetarians seem to be quite uncommon

[passenger1980]

I never said meat was necessary. I think seafoods will do the job just fine. For that matter, I think that a lacto-vegetarian diet, if you have sufficiently good quality raw dairy and the right plants foods of sufficient quality, is plenty good. However....that's a big if, just yet. The real danger is veganism. If you're not at least getting some eggs, or dairy, or fish eggs, or fish/shellfish, over time, you run a real risk of brain deterioration. Panic attacks, emotional problems, anxiety, early dementia...serious issues.

 

It's documented that the Masai had 1/13 the cavities of the Kikuyu, and I seriously, seriously doubt that a diet that causes 13 times as many cavities as another one will be a better diet for longevity. Wake up.

 

I agree, veganism is an extreme choice in my opinion, i respect vegans, but i don't think it's actually wise, it's some sort of protest and system rebellion gimmick. While i'm against cruelty to animals in any form, i don't see anything wrong if you humanely milk a cow, or collect eggs in a farm.

[林愛偉]

Daoists do stay away from meat. After a certain level of cultivation, or right from the very beginning.... TO get to high vibrational levels, meat has to stay out of the diet. :-)

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[mYTHmAKER]

I never said meat was necessary. I think seafoods will do the job just fine. For that matter, I think that a lacto-vegetarian diet, if you have sufficiently good quality raw dairy and the right plants foods of sufficient quality, is plenty good. However....that's a big if, just yet. The real danger is veganism. If you're not at least getting some eggs, or dairy, or fish eggs, or fish/shellfish, over time, you run a real risk of brain deterioration. Panic attacks, emotional problems, anxiety, early dementia...serious issues.

 

It's documented that the Masai had 1/13 the cavities of the Kikuyu, and I seriously, seriously doubt that a diet that causes 13 times as many cavities as another one will be a better diet for longevity. Wake up.

 

Now you may have hit on something. Being a vegan is a lot trickier than being an ovo lacto vegetarian.

If your going to do it it has to be done right.

 

As for the Kikuyu are you sure they weren't eating something that causes cavities which is undocumented in the diet. The Massai weren't into sweets.

I can have just as many cavities eating flesh as not eating it - it's the sweets in the diet.

 

I do not make a distinction between meat and fish they are both considered flesh.

 

Another possibility is that the Massai flossed rinsed or cleaned their teeth in some manner. The urine in the cows blood would keep gums in shape and kill bacteria that causes cavaties. You don't have to be a meat eater to rinse with urine.

 

Meat will kill you quicker.

I'm willing to bet I have quite a few years on you and I have all my teeth. I've been a vegetarian since 1968.

Haven't eaten any dead bodies except for the unknowlingly occasional bug in my food.

You just didn't go about it right.

[Hern Heng]

Veganism is ideologically a kind ideal. It is more difficult to obtain proper heat with such a diet (but it is possible). Personally, i think the ovo-lacto vegetarian diet (with the ovo and the lacto being from "clean karma" sources, not from factory farms), is the all-around healthiest. i say this having tried an omnivorous, vegan and lack and ovo-lacto diet for years at a time each.

 

i think most "vegans" are vegan because they disagree with factory farming and such more than they disagree with consuming animal products that do not harm the animals.

 

In terms of "Dao"-ism, if one sees themselves as a facet of a symbiotic whole, then they must take into account the suffering of all; and if suffering need not be incurred then one should ask themselves why they chose to incur it. Is it to leach the qi from a big animal or from skinned alive rabbits at a David Verdesi seminar? This sort of power is no different than the famous TV repair man "qi" video; where the man "charges" temporarily with the electricity of the television's capacitors. This sort of power is limited to how much you can continuously absorb from "others" (a dualistic power scheme). Though Dao"ism" has had it's fair share of meat consumption historically, it serves to reason that the ideal behind abstaining from meat is as consistent with a Dao"ist" ethic of Oneness as it is with Buddhist doctrines.

Edited February 11, 2008 by Hern Heng

[agharta]

Now you may have hit on something. Being a vegan is a lot trickier than being an ovo lacto vegetarian.

If your going to do it it has to be done right.

 

As for the Kikuyu are you sure they weren't eating something that causes cavities which is undocumented in the diet. The Massai weren't into sweets.

I can have just as many cavities eating flesh as not eating it - it's the sweets in the diet.

 

I do not make a distinction between meat and fish they are both considered flesh.

 

Another possibility is that the Massai flossed rinsed or cleaned their teeth in some manner. The urine in the cows blood would keep gums in shape and kill bacteria that causes cavaties. You don't have to be a meat eater to rinse with urine.

 

Meat will kill you quicker.

I'm willing to bet I have quite a few years on you and I have all my teeth. I've been a vegetarian since 1968.

Haven't eaten any dead bodies except for the unknowlingly occasional bug in my food.

You just didn't go about it right.

 

 

The Masai did not clean their teeth. However, the Kikuyu did eat a lot of sweet stuff in the form of cooked plantain, cooked sweet potato, banana, etc.

 

I'm also not talking about eating muscle meat. When I do eat meat (other than fish) I generally only eat the organs and the fat, and I'm very careful about the source. I eat a fair amount of bone marrow, and when I can get good-quality unfrozen liver (which I have to order) I eat that. Usually I stick with the seafoods. It's all you really need as far as animal products go.

 

I will definitely say that sticking with a low-carb, high-good-fats diet is probably the single most important dietary thing, vegetarian or not. Excess carbs of any kind are not that great for you, whether they are whole grains, fruits, sweet potatoes, or whatever. This is the great mistake of the Chinese diet, the excess grains. It's why they are so short.

[mYTHmAKER]

Here's one article. You can google and find out more about the height of chinese people

 

Chinese People are Tall

Guest Author - Caroline Baker

 

It seems to be a common myth or stereotype that Chinese people are short. In fact, that is supported by the fact that based on national statistics; the average height of Chinese men is only 5ft 6.8in and for women only 5ft 2.4in. That's nearly half a foot shorter than most average heights for the Western world.

 

But as with all stereotypes, one can hardly say that all Chinese people are short. For surely, that cannot then explain Yao Ming, a 7ft 6in basketball center. Yao was born in Shanghai. Both his parents are also tall, towering at over 6ft each.

 

Perhaps it is regional. My family, which originated around the Shanghai area as well, has a mix of heights. My father is only 5ft 6in. But his younger brother is 6ft tall. And several of my cousins are nearly as tall as him. My one aunt is taller than my dad and my other is much shorter. And I personally fall well within what would be considered average height for a Chinese woman, which is much shorter than most of my Western friends.

 

Then there's the interesting fact that the tallest man alive is from China. Xi Shun, living in Inner Mongolia (which is considered Northern China), stands at 7ft 8.95in tall (just 0.05in taller than the previous holder of Tallest Man Living).

 

There is also my friend from college whose family came from Southern China. He was 6ft 1in tall and much taller than most of his Western friends. Perhaps he is a mutant? We thought so at times.

 

Seriously speaking here, stereotypes exist but there are always exceptions. China is such a huge country and there are so many cultures that mix within the country that it is not surprising to see many variations of people. The borders of China touch many different lands and cultures.

 

So whenever someone says they are "Chinese", there is often a stigma and preconceived image of what that person looks like. It's important to remember that sometimes, just sometimes, there's no guarantee they will look like the stereotypical Chinese.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I have a very thick text book called "Healing with whole foods" and i think works with the 5 elements ill check it out its been years.

 

Thanks for some insightful answers!

 

Lin,

 

I understand what you mean and i think this is holding me back on alot of things i can feel it inside!

 

WYG

[mYTHmAKER]

Daoists do stay away from meat. After a certain level of cultivation, or right from the very beginning.... TO get to high vibrational levels, meat has to stay out of the diet. :-)

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

Does this apply to fish.

At this point It's been so long since I have eaten flesh.

I know cheese makes me sluggish.

[Andrei]

People, be WISE, understand how the energy flows

 

There are no two people alike in this world, so if you do that or eat this because Buddha said so, or Jesus or whoever, think twice

 

First we differ by our genetics. We are different races because we grew in different areas of the globe, with different weather, with different local conditions and food resources. You cannot oblige an Innuit or Eskimo to became vegetarian, plants don't even grow where they live. People eat what grows in their areal. That's why every civilization had a cereal that was built upon it. Sumerian/Egyptian/European civilization were built upon wheat, Precolumbus Americas upon corn, Asian civilization upon rice etc. Also we are different due to our ancestors way of life, which is evidenced in our blood type (Hunters, Cultivators, Shepherds or mixed types). All of this diversity is due to different energy patterns.

You cannot fast in Canada or Siberia because you would freeze to death and it is natural to eat seals or fish and also is natural to avoid eating meat in a hot and moist subcontinent such as India or Indochina. Depends of the energy of the place. It is natural to fast in the desert of Arabia or Egypt where the great religions were born and the heat boiled the brains of their followers, but unnatural to take the customs of a place and try to forcefully adopt in your living place with a different type of energy.

I strongly believe that the quickest way to spiritual enlightenment is the BALANCE in someone's life.

Also even though we live in the same place, we differ due to the dynamics of the energy of the universe when we were born, there are a lot of differences in a person born in winter than a person born in summer, same if you are born at midday or at midnight, or when full moon or new moon. All these energies shape our body, our souls and the spiritual achievement is conditioned by the balance of these energies. That's why the foods you eat should match the energy of the place you live and the energy of the time you were born. It's a matter of tunning the flow of energy through ourselves. There is no rule except one single rule: "Everything is energy, and energy flows according to patterns". Which Taoists discovered and classified these patterns as water, wood, fire, earth, metal.

[林愛偉]

Does this apply to fish.

At this point It's been so long since I have eaten flesh.

I know cheese makes me sluggish.

 

 

:-)

I should have been specific... Any animal; on 2, 3, four and 1 leg. insects; any. reptile; any. fish or sea dwelling creature; any.

 

hehe

 

Peace,

Lin

 

 

 

Unfortunately, for a very very very long time humans have been eating other animals and living beings. Doesn't make it right. Now because of this, the human's have cells that have changed due to this influence of meat, and thus genetically and energetically are structured to want meat. It has become such a habit that people think it to be OKAY.. haha but its not. Its habit and it is this way because of one doing it and reaping the outcomes of it.

 

Who cares who said what and what not to do... Basically eating flesh of any kind from any animal or fish ...even human is not energetically right. It keeps you down, grounded. WHy do you want such affinities with the Earth and living beings for? Are you really a human? "You" live in your house...are you your house?

 

Too much philosophy from books written within the last 100yrs about "Eastern" practices from people who almost touched just the surface and then shaped the western world's perception with it all. Fun.

 

But that's what its about.. getting confused and then getting Un-Confused.

 

 

Buddha saw it and taught it. So many others do as well. So do Daoist Immortals. And still, there are immortals out there that could care less what people think them to be, "Good or Bad" and just teach things to people to keep them under control.

 

 

 

Peace and Blessings

[agharta]

"You cannot fast in Canada or Siberia because you would freeze to death and it is natural to eat seals or fish and also is natural to avoid eating meat in a hot and moist subcontinent such as India or Indochina."

 

That's only part of the truth. The Eskimo and the Masai ate very, very low-carb diets, and both groups had excellent teeth, health, and skeletal development. The Masai did eat a little more carbohydrate, but not tremendously more. They were still very low-carb, and in a very hot part of Africa.

 

I'd like to point out that plenty of sea creatures would be happy to eat me if they could. I'm more than happy to eat them first. There's no teaching a crab morality, but I've got the brains to understand the difference between killing another human, and killing a crab.

Edited February 11, 2008 by agharta

[passenger1980]

"You cannot fast in Canada or Siberia because you would freeze to death and it is natural to eat seals or fish and also is natural to avoid eating meat in a hot and moist subcontinent such as India or Indochina."

 

That's only part of the truth. The Eskimo and the Masai ate very, very low-carb diets, and both groups had excellent teeth, health, and skeletal development. The Masai did eat a little more carbohydrate, but not tremendously more. They were still very low-carb, and in a very hot part of Africa.

 

I'd like to point out that plenty of sea creatures would be happy to eat me if they could. I'm more than happy to eat them first. There's no teaching a crab morality, but I've got the brains to understand the difference between killing another human, and killing a crab.

 

Then you have the brain to understand your outstanding display of compassion. Animals are not aware of right and wrong, and that doesn't make them inferior. Of course we love to think that way, so we can kill them in every way possible. However, even while they are not aware of right and wrong, they seem to behave in a much more ethical manner than humans in most cases.

[mYTHmAKER]

:-)

I should have been specific... Any animal; on 2, 3, four and 1 leg. insects; any. reptile; any. fish or sea dwelling creature; any.

 

That's why I always use the terms flesh or dead bodies.