What is wrong about being judgemental?

[liminal_luke]

18 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 It seems to me that as a conscious human being one simply cannot escape from being judgemental. That is: as long as one has conscious likes and dislikes.

 

Maybe it`s not an all-or-nothing kind of thing.  I think there`s a middleground where we have judgments but hold them lightly.  We can learn to take our judgments less seriously, giving ourselves and others more and more room to breathe.

[wandelaar]

Nothing wrong with (also) looking inside oneself when you see others do or say something that you consider as being wrong. As to the political discussions in the Trump topics , I know that I would have a hard time myself to avoid the fallacies and obsessive behaviour that I have seen there if I were to join in the discussion. But in my mind that doesn't disqualify me for making judgements on what is going on in those topics. I can see from both the inside (on the basis of my own experience) and the outside (what others do) what is going wrong.

 

Further I don't think one can have knowledge in moral matters (there are no facts in the ethical domain to which one could compare the correctness of one's own stance), and so the difference between judgement and discernment escapes me. It looks like just a play on words.

 

The idea that one should not include a penalty in one's judgements is OK with me as long as there in not too much at stake. I think it is better to leave others free to do as they please than to moralise. But when someone grossly misbehaves on this forum than I surely think a penalty such as a (temporary) ban is appropriate. So this depends on the kind of behaviour. But I never proposed to penalise Bums simply for having political discussions.

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by wandelaar

[Kar3n]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

I think it is better to leave others free to do as they please than to moralise.

I couldn't agree more...

 

So what's the problem? 

[wandelaar]

The problem is that being judgemental is seen as a problem. So I started this topic to find out what others see as wrong in being judgemental...

 

By the way I see moralising as expressing one's opinions on all kinds of trivial matters that aren't worth the trouble.

[Kar3n]

5 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

The problem is that being judgemental is seen as a problem. So I started this topic to find out what others see as wrong in being judgemental...

 

By the way I see moralising as expressing one's opinions on all kinds of trivial matters that aren't worth the trouble.

Being judgemental shows a lack of self awareness and says more about the person judging than the one being judged.

 

There is not a single person without fault and when we judge it puts us in position to be judged based on our own self righteousness and sense of moral and ethical superiority.  It's really a vicious cycle and often times ends in bruised egos and hurt feelings though I am far less concerned about a person's ego than I am about hurting them.

[wandelaar]

27 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

Being judgemental shows a lack of self awareness and says more about the person judging than the one being judged.

 

Why?

 

Quote

There is not a single person without fault and when we judge it puts us in position to be judged based on our own self righteousness and sense of moral and ethical superiority.  It's really a vicious cycle and often times ends in bruised egos and hurt feelings though I am far less concerned about a person's ego than I am about hurting them.

 

I don't have a sense of moral and ethical superiority, but I do claim the right to think and judge by myself. And I don't even think it possible to factually determine who is right or wrong as regards moral questions. Further I try to live up to my own opinions (it are nothing more: just opinions) as regards a possible (Taoist inspired) way to live. What's wrong about that?

 

One can ignore the paradox, but the postmodern taboo on being judgemental is just as judgemental as honestly recognising that one is judgemental.

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by wandelaar

[Kar3n]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Why?

 

 

I don't have a sense of moral and ethical superiority, but I do claim the right to think and judge by myself. And I don't even think it possible to factually determine who is right or wrong as regards moral questions. Further I try to live up to my own opinions (it are nothing more: just opinions) as regards a possible (Taoist inspired) way to live. What's wrong about that?

 

One can ignore the paradox, but the postmodern taboo on being judgemental is just as judgemental as honestly recognising that one is judgemental.

 

Well, because we base our judgements on, in most cases, from our own perspective with little to no consideration for the judged's.

 

You know what they say about opinions don't you? Everybody has one and they stink...

 

Views on being judgemental are hardly postmodern taboo. Just because everyone is guilty, doesn't make it right or worthy of acceptance as a way to interact with others.

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Kar3n said:

Well, because we base our judgements on, in most cases, from our own perspective with little to no consideration for the judged's.

 

No - the judgement is the combined result of the perspective of the judger and the qualities of the judged. But you are right, we have to know the perspective of the judger to be able to correctly interpret the judgement. But the qualities of the judged do play their part.

 

1 minute ago, Kar3n said:

You know what they say about opinions don't you? Everybody has one and they stink...

 

Why would everyone have one if they stink? Simple - because we can't live without opinions. They are necessary for us to make choices in our life's.

 

1 minute ago, Kar3n said:

Views on being judgemental are hardly postmodern taboo. Just because everyone is guilty, doesn't make it right or worthy of acceptance as a way to interact with others.

 

Postmodernism has turned "being judgemental" into a taboo. And in this way postmodernism has become something of a Thought Police without realising that thereby it has become much more judgemental than the simple souls it judges. But it is true - being judgemental can be taken too far. As the Old Man used to say: know when to stop.

[Kar3n]

37 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Why would everyone have one if they stink? Simple - because we can't live without opinions. They are necessary for us to make choices in our life's.

So you don't know the saying.

 

It goes like this...

 

Opinions are like assholes and most of them stink.

[Aetherous]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Further I don't think one can have knowledge in moral matters (there are no facts in the ethical domain to which one could compare the correctness of one's own stance)

 

It's postmodernism to claim right and wrong are relative and basically meaningless opinions; it's also untrue.

 

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

and so the difference between judgement and discernment escapes me. It looks like just a play on words.

 

I'll quote what I said again, which is very clear, and is a genuine difference in meaning rather than a play on words:
 

"Just think of the meanings of the two words: to discern means to understand the truth. To judge means that someone is on trial, and you (and the jury) make the decision of what happens to them in the form of a punishment.

 

Understanding the truth, versus deciding someone deserves punishment, are miles apart."

 

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

The idea that one should not include a penalty in one's judgements is OK with me as long as there in not too much at stake.

 

Sounds like you're saying penalizing others becomes important if a lot is at stake...I agree, and will respond to that later...

 

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I think it is better to leave others free to do as they please than to moralise.

 

We're on a site about cultivation, which definitely includes the cultivation of virtue/morality/character. Discussing these things is not empty "moralizing", but is a means of helping one another self-transform. We're talking about how to walk the spiritual path...not criticizing or condemning.

Also, this idea, "leaving others free to do as they please" is similar to what Luke said...give others some breathing room. It's a fact of life that people don't like to be told they are wrong, and perhaps it's more beneficial to take it easy on oneself and others rather than impose exacting laws of morality. After all, as humans we can barely control our impulses...how could we ever be perfect in how we behave?

Still, "tiny drops of poison eventually fill the bucket". Justifying doing little wrongs is not the way to cultivate. Making mistakes is fine, but knowing something is slightly wrong and pretending it's not bad enough to warrant changing doesn't help our development of virtue.

 

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

But when someone grossly misbehaves on this forum than I surely think a penalty such as a (temporary) ban is appropriate. So this depends on the kind of behaviour. But I never proposed to penalise Bums simply for having political discussions.

 

Yes, if a person in a society goes against its laws (such as becoming violent) it makes sense to contain them. That is basically a penalty (although if the legal system is just, it will be a fair one)...but it's done to defend others in the society.

In regard to the forum...that would be similar to someone breaking forum rules.

[Nintendao]

1 hour ago, Kar3n said:

So you don't know the saying.

 

It goes like this...

 

Opinions are like assholes and most of them stink.

 

It is true however the magnitude varies drastically depending on one's diet. 

[wandelaar]

I quit. I don't see what all the well meant criticism has to do with me. That could be because (1) I am blind to my own errors, or it could be that (2) my position is grossly misunderstood. As I have read no convincing arguments or examples for (1), I guess it has to be (2). And because the misunderstandings only further accumulate with each new post, I don't think it useful to continue.

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by wandelaar

[Aetherous]

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

I don't see what all the well meant criticism has to do with me.

 

Nothing. We're talking about whether being judgmental is beneficial or harmful, in the context of spiritual cultivation.

[liminal_luke]

One way to think about judgment is to consider whether or not it`s in our self-interest.  What does it feel like internally when we are judgmental?  When we let our judgments go?  

[wandelaar]

8 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Nothing. We're talking about whether being judgmental is beneficial or harmful, in the context of spiritual cultivation.

 

As I personally see no problem in being judgemental (in regard to serious life issues but not in trivial matters), I take the criticism as also referring to me. And that's OK because than I can possibly learn from it. But I don't recognise myself in what is said here about people who are being judgemental. It's all rather beside the point.

[rideforever]

Better to give examples of what you are judging then people can talk about that circumstance.
Judging/ Discernment/ Moralising/ Intelligence .... people can use any words to describe abstract ideas but it goes nowhere like many threads.   Be specific.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

If we were full and complete people their is no need to be judgmental. If we judge someone the fault or the greatness is only the refection of ourselves. This is why you all suck and I am great and why I suck and you all are greater then me.

 

So for all the judgmental people it is entirely your fault. It is your fault that  I suck or not suck so much  Thanks for sharing your own reflection of me.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Wu Ming Jen

[wandelaar]

15 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Better to give examples of what you are judging then people can talk about that circumstance.
Judging/ Discernment/ Moralising/ Intelligence .... people can use any words to describe abstract ideas but it goes nowhere like many threads.   Be specific.

 

Here is the example of me being shamelessly judgemental that started the ball rolling:

 

Quote

You are right that spirituality should show in everyday life, and thus also in the way politics is discussed. But even from this perspective I didn't see spirituality in action in the Trump topic(s). There may well have been some moments here and there where spirituality was manifested, but overall the discussion in the Trump topic(s) wasn't any better than the heated political (non)discussions you see everywhere else on the internet. Or from a Laoist perspective: just a waste of time.

 

[rideforever]

15 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

 

So what you are saying is that people on the Trump thread were not being spiritual ? True they were/are lost in argument with no real communication - it's not really a thread because there is little communication.    And there is little value spiritual or non-spiritual in it, just a headache.

Again I find in that thread that were are the details ?   If you say Trump is good or bad, why exactly ?   That would be  good start.   Talking abstract is useless because you don't really say what you think or why so nobody can really respond.
"Spiritual should show" .... not sure what you mean ?   That everyone has Dalai Lama face on ? ???

 

Also ....  I think it's very helpful to true to understand what has gone wrong and how to make progress, because such situations are quite common.   And I think it begins with being specific about your views.   Good thing to learn.

Edited December 8, 2018 by rideforever

[Wu Ming Jen]

Trump is everything I hate about myself. Joking of course

 

If we bring Trump into this, the whole thread will go down hill fast, people being banned, topics closed, moderates up for days on end. An emotion might even get hurt with words, no real bruising but its 2017 we are  very sensitive as you know, Trust me this is not a good thing.

 

If I actually cared and not sarcastic then I am being very judgmental right now.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Wu Ming Jen

[Kar3n]

I wonder why it is anyone's business how "spiritual" another is? Surely those passing judgement can see the fallacy of measuring others by their "spiritual" barometer.

 

How "spiritual" is it to put yourself in a position to tell another they're not "spiritual"?

[wandelaar]

@ Kar3n

 

When I think about spirituality I come to some ideas of what it amounts to. According to that individual "barometer" I myself and others will then be more or less advanced spiritually. When I have any information that would lead me to an improvement of my barometer, than I would rapidly improve it. So naturally I consider my own barometer as the best possible with the information I currently have. No fallacy is involved here. It's just a matter of taking oneself seriously.

 

You are also measuring the spirituality of others according to your own barometer, and your barometer reckons being judgemental as (very) detrimental to one's spirituality. But how do you know that those things don't go together? You don't! You cannot look inside my head, and you don't understand my stance.

 

In my opinion everybody as a conscious living human being simply has to be (more or less) judgemental. The only difference is that some people acknowledge the fact, and others don't.

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by wandelaar

[Fa Xin]

Judgement implies you cannot change your view on something. I don’t like being that attached to a view. Surprising though it may seem - I have been wrong before. 

[ben kaf]

If it is necessary to is ok to judge for example when you want to but a new house or a car you need to judge and find out what works for you and what doesn't. What is troublesome is actually when you judge someone unnecessarily, for example you don't need to judge guy next door or a strange on the street or even a fellow dao bum! And if you do so, you will lose focus on what is important, which is Yourself!

[rideforever]

You know what's awful about people is that they are so negative.
They just can't wait to tell you something bad.
Never will they say something nice, maybe if they are negative for half an hour then they'll say two nice things.
It just never ends.
Fault finding.
It's like if there is nothing negative to say, then it's silence.
People just talk about problems, or tell you what is okay and what is not okay.

Yes I realise the irony.
How often do you hear somebody being supportive or encouraging or work with you to find solutions, or help without demanding anything.

 

Edited December 8, 2018 by rideforever