U.S. Law and Policy

[ilumairen]

The title is intentional and I'd like this thread to focus on U.S. Law and Policy as it relates to current events. Past Law, policy, and events may be cited to further understanding and or educate (oneself or others).

 

There is an expectation of civility in this thread, and I believe that, as spiritual people and/or cultivators we certainly should be able to discus issues civilly.

 

Please leave Hitler out of things.

 

One final note: if this thread deteriorates to the point of being another headache for the mods, as the OP, I have the option to ask it be moved to my ppd. 

 

: setting out tea and cookies :

[Pilgrim]

 

[Pilgrim]

Invitation accepted.  Shall I invite some members like Kar3n, Stosh,Apech,  RC, Luke, Aetheros, Ralis and windwalker, who were always active  or should they just find their own way here?

[ilumairen]

In a 2:1 ruling the 9th circuit upheld the block on President Trump's recent and temporary policy of denying asylum to migrants who enter the country illegally.

 

It was cited as being inconsistent with existing law.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-appeals-court-won-t-immediately-allow-trump-asylum-n945536

 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/return-of-trumps-asylum-policy-blocked-by-9th-circuit-court-reports

[ilumairen]

Existing law:

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158

 

Quote

 

(a)Authority to apply for asylum

(1)In general

Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title.

(2)Exceptions

(A)Safe third country

Paragraph (1) shall not apply to an alien if the Attorney Generaldetermines that the alien may be removed, pursuant to a bilateral or multilateral agreement, to a country (other than the country of the alien’s nationality or, in the case of an alien having no nationality, the country of the alien’s last habitual residence) in which the alien’s life or freedom would not be threatened on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion, and where the alien would have access to a full and fair procedure for determining a claim to asylum or equivalent temporary protection, unless the Attorney General finds that it is in the public interest for the alien to receive asylum in the United States.

(B)Time limit

Subject to subparagraph (D), paragraph (1) shall not apply to an alien unless the alien demonstrates by clear and convincing evidence that the application has been filed within 1 year after the date of the alien’s arrival in the United States.

(C)Previous asylum applications

Subject to subparagraph (D), paragraph (1) shall not apply to an alien if the alien has previously applied for asylum and had such application denied.

(D)Changed circumstances

An application for asylum of an alienmay be considered, notwithstanding subparagraphs (B) and (C), if the aliendemonstrates to the satisfaction of the Attorney General either the existence of changed circumstances which materially affect the applicant’s eligibility for asylum or extraordinary circumstances relating to the delay in filing an application within the period specified in subparagraph (B).

(E)Applicability

Subparagraphs (A) and (B) shall not apply to an unaccompanied alienchild(as defined in section 279(g) of title 6).

 

 

 

[ilumairen]

22 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Invitation accepted.  Shall I invite some members like Kar3n, Stosh,Apech,  RC, Luke, Aetheros, Ralis and windwalker, who were always active  or should they just find their own way here?

 

I'm sure those who are interested will find their way here. 

 

Welcome to the thread. 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Pilgrim said:

Invitation accepted.  Shall I invite some members like Kar3n, Stosh,Apech,  RC, Luke, Aetheros, Ralis and windwalker, who were always active  or should they just find their own way here?

 

Don't worry I know nothing about US Law.

[ilumairen]

The Presidential Proclamation that is being contested and moving through the court system:

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/presidential-proclamation-addressing-mass-migration-southern-border-united-states/

 

[ilumairen]

24 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Don't worry I know nothing about US Law.

 

I found there was much for me to learn. If the subject interests you, you're very welcome here.

 

Have some tea and cookies.

[ilumairen]

Proclamation 4865 of September 29, 1981 (High Seas Interdiction of Illegal Aliens) was upheld by the Supreme Court. 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

34 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Don't worry I know nothing about US Law.

This might be a good time for both of us to learn here you can have one of my biscuits 🍪

[ralis]

In response to Trump’s incessant need for a wall in which there will be no funding beginning 1-3-19. 

 

Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man. ~ Gen. George S. Patton

[Aetherous]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

In response to Trump’s incessant need for a wall in which there will be no funding beginning 1-3-19. 

 

Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man. ~ Gen. George S. Patton

 

I dig the quote, but what's the solution?

[dawei]

5 hours ago, ilumairen said:

In a 2:1 ruling the 9th circuit upheld the block on President Trump's recent and temporary policy of denying asylum to migrants who enter the country illegally.

 

It was cited as being inconsistent with existing law.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-appeals-court-won-t-immediately-allow-trump-asylum-n945536

 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/return-of-trumps-asylum-policy-blocked-by-9th-circuit-court-reports

 

Well, you certainly picked two interesting ones to start with.  At this point, I don't have an opinion as it seems the courts will decide but I see the 9th circuit court being overruled at some point. 

[dawei]

2 hours ago, ralis said:

In response to Trump’s incessant need for a wall in which there will be no funding beginning 1-3-19. 

 

Seems more like a US incessant need...  I recall most of the presidents of the last 30 years calling for stronger border and wall.  

[ilumairen]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Seems more like a US incessant need...  I recall most of the presidents of the last 30 years calling for stronger border and wall.  

 

The Secure Fence Act of 2006:

 

https://www.congress.gov/bill/109th-congress/house-bill/6061

 

 

 

[windwalker]

4 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

I dig the quote, but what's the solution?

 

The quote itself is being misinterpreted. 

 

The " stupidity of man" refers to the fact that one still needs walls to inforce borders and boundaries, not that they are ineffective or not needed.

 

War could also be said due to the stupidity of man but at this point it's still necessary.  Notice it's being said one who's job is war.

 

I feel many missed the point of the border wall as it reflects the will and intent.  Up until this time both have been very unclear and used as a propaganda tool until one is in office.

 

Notice that most presidents once they're in office will tend to say the same things for the same reasons.

 

The last president was no exception, the exception was the way the Press recorded and handled his actions.

 

Much of the same actions taken now are reported in a totally different way that supports a narrative.

 

It's quite dangerous as in those that support the narrative of open borders are not the ones who have to deal with the results.

 

It's dangerous because those claiming freedom of press / speech,  are at the same time suppressing the same freedoms for others that they claim.

 

The ones that make this possible the tech companies are also on a path that will eventually lead them to being regulated and controled.

 

interesting enough the same companies developed technologies for other countries that allow them to regulate and control their own networks in a way that would not be allowed in the US.

Edited December 9, 2018 by windwalker

[ilumairen]

6 hours ago, ralis said:

In response to Trump’s incessant need for a wall in which there will be no funding beginning 1-3-19. 

 

As Dawei has already pointed out, the leader's of our country have been expressing a need for a wall for quite some time. And there are clips out there of some of the people who are now speaking against it voicing their past opinions in favor of it. 

 

6 hours ago, ralis said:

Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man. ~ Gen. George S. Patton

 

I'm pleased you joined the conversation. 

 

Do you have further context for the quote, and if you do would you share it?

[ilumairen]

39 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

The quote itself is being misinterpreted. 

 

The " stupidity of man" refers to the fact that one still needs walls to inforce borders and boundaries, not that they are ineffective or not needed.

 

War could also be said due to the stupidity of man but at this point it's still necessary.  Notice it's being said one who's job is war.

 

While I understand this is your interpretation, I'm not convinced this was the intent. 

 

When I was young I played the boardgame RISK with older neighborhood children alot. When it became apparent that I was losing, one of my favorite moves was to build up armies in Australia where there was only one route of attack - a defensive wall. This isn't the move a general with an eye on winning would pursue. And it holds it's own numerous follies. 

 

 

Quote

 

I feel many missed the point of the border wall as it reflects the will and intent.  Up until this time both have been very unclear and used as a propaganda tool until one is in office.

 

Notice that most presidents once they're in office will tend to say the same things for the same reasons.

 

The last president was no exception, the exception was the way the Press recorded and handled his actions.

 

Much of the same actions taken now are reported in a totally different way that supports a narrative.

 

It's quite dangerous as in those that support the narrative of open borders are not the ones who have to deal with the results.

 

It's dangerous because those claiming freedom of press / speech,  are at the same time suppressing the same freedoms for others that they claim.

 

The ones that make this possible the tech companies are also on a path that will eventually lead them to being regulated and controled.

 

interesting enough the same companies developed technologies for other countries that allow them to regulate and control their own networks in a way that would not be allowed in the US.

 

Glad you're here.

[windwalker]

16 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Do you have further context for the quote, and if you do would you share it?

 

It seems my own interpretation of what he meant was in error however I still stand by the idea.  

 

Quote

Fortifications can slow you, can even hurt you, but eventually an attacker with resources will overwhelm, nullify, or simply bypass them. Also, war is as Clauswitz said, “Politics by other means” as all parties of WWII understood. Dying for a piece of ground that doesn’t give you an advantage is no more sensible than a pilot declaring he will die before he gives up a cloud.

 

Patton correctly believed that as the technology of warfare became faster,

 

deadlier, and more coordinated fixed fortifications would eventually become expensive places to die in.  

 

https://www.quora.com/What-did-General-Patton-meant-by-fixed-fortifications-are-a-monument-to-the-stupidity-of-man

 

While he may have been a good general  and a warrior as a man he had and acted beliefs that many would 

not accept  nor condon today.   The nation at that time didn't need a good man but it needed a good warrior and general.

Which he was...

 

 

In time I believe, Trump will be seen as the right man, for the right time, in the right job.. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by windwalker

[ilumairen]

4 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Well, you certainly picked two interesting ones to start with.  At this point, I don't have an opinion as it seems the courts will decide but I see the 9th circuit court being overruled at some point. 

 

Many of their decisions are overruled, and as precedence was set with Proclamation 4865 of September 29, 1981, I suspect this one may be as well. 

 

I've so far only found Proclamation 4865 as a pdf, so it's a bit harder to share here. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by ilumairen

[Pilgrim]

56 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

The quote itself is being misinterpreted. 

 

The " stupidity of man" refers to the fact that one still needs walls to inforce borders and boundaries, not that they are ineffective or not needed.

 

War could also be said due to the stupidity of man but at this point it's still necessary.  Notice it's being said one who's job is war.

 

I feel many missed the point of the border wall as it reflects the will and intent.  Up until this time both have been very unclear and used as a propaganda tool until one is in office.

 

Notice that most presidents once they're in office will tend to say the same things for the same reasons.

 

The last president was no exception, the exception was the way the Press recorded and handled his actions.

 

Much of the same actions taken now are reported in a totally different way that supports a narrative.

 

It's quite dangerous as in those that support the narrative of open borders are not the ones who have to deal with the results.

 

It's dangerous because those claiming freedom of press / speech,  are at the same time suppressing the same freedoms for others that they claim.

 

The ones that make this possible the tech companies are also on a path that will eventually lead them to being regulated and controled.

 

interesting enough the same companies developed technologies for other countries that allow them to regulate and control their own networks in a way that would not be allowed in the US.

Great points Apple with there banning causing issues with tumbler causing tumbler to ban sexualy related material in order to remain in their App Store.

 

The thing that gets me here is Cook Apples CEO’s Abject Hypocracy an Open LGBT proponent of the 🏳️‍🌈 community and now  Q whatever that is,  and a self proclaimed homosexual man himself.

 

Makes me think he is a hypocrite satisfying his conservative stock holders.

 

Google working with the chinease govt on censorship, Facebook a complete farce with its privacy buttons etc... all of this stuff will come under regulation as these tech giants are like and nigh into sovereign nation states now affecting everyone’s lives in ways that were never imagined by the founding fathers and mothers of any nation.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Pilgrim

[windwalker]

12 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Google working with the chinese govt on censorship, Facebook a complete farce with its privacy buttons etc... all of this stuff will come under regulation as these tech giants are like and nigh into sovereign nation states now affecting everyone’s lives in ways that were never imagined by the founding fathers and mothers of any nation.

 

Its a failure of many in our gov to understand tech.

In some ways this is good in others bad.

 

Trump, working in and with a media environment as Reagan, understood this very well. 

Although Reagan, didn't have to contend with the tech of this time...Trump did and does. 

 

Even Obama,  didn't get the tech, fumbled the roll out of his health care on the net. 

  

HRC tried to hide and relied on others to help,,not understanding that nothing is really hidden

only not revealed.

 

This trend will get worse, with the gov trying to control it with in itself.  Unfortunately the policies 

used to control this are not enforced holding those accountable who violate them...   yet. 

 

Having held a secret clearance in the military...people in the military get in trouble all the time for 

things that those in office are not held to the same standards.

 

This happened a while back...

 

"A US Navy sailor was sentenced on Friday to a year in prison for taking photos of classified areas inside a nuclear attack submarine while it was in port in Connecticut."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/20/us-navy-sailor-jailed-for-taking-photos-of-classified-areas-of-nuclear-submarine  

 

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by windwalker

[ilumairen]

5 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

I dig the quote, but what's the solution?

 

Perhaps a more interesting question at this point in the discussion is if a problem needing a solution is seen?

 

Nice you're here Aetherous.

[Pilgrim]

20 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

Its a failure of many in our gov to understand tech.

In some ways this is good in others bad.

 

Trump, working in and with a media environment as Reagan, understood this very well. 

Although Reagan, didn't have to contend with the tech of this time...Trump did and does. 

 

Even Obama,  didn't get the tech, fumbled the roll out of his health care on the net. 

  

HRC tried to hide and relied on others to help,,not understanding that nothing is really hidden

only not revealed.

 

This trend will get worse, with the gov trying to control it with in itself.  Unfortunately the policies 

used to control this are not enforced holding those accountable who violate them...   yet. 

 

Having held a secret clearance in the military...people in the military get in trouble all the time for 

things that those in office are not held to the same standards.

 

This happened a while back...

 

"A US Navy sailor was sentenced on Friday to a year in prison for taking photos of classified areas inside a nuclear attack submarine while it was in port in Connecticut."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/20/us-navy-sailor-jailed-for-taking-photos-of-classified-areas-of-nuclear-submarine  

 

 

I see your point but at this late stage in the game anyone in government not understanding tech has made themselves a liability and need to pass the torch to a younger generation. It seems to me most over the age of 50 now have willfully resisted technology and only know the play side of it AKA Facebook. This is not good.

 

HRC with the private e-mail server was what did it for me, I always thought of her as pretty darn strong to have put up with what Bill put her through. After Obama I was ready for more great progress out of the dark ages and felt a woman could be just what we needed..

 

The email server killed it for me. 

 

That is a smart woman one I think was responsible for allot of Bills better stuff.

 

Behind every successful man is a good woman, there is fact to that saying.

 

I have a very hard time believing she did not understand, my God I hope she did because as a former First Lady and Secretary of State from 2009 to 2013 that scares me worse than anything. She had to know about security matters. It is inconceivable she did not.

 

Later I actually tried to let it go saying well too bad she got caught it was a smart move to keep dirt flowing to her own exchange server and surly she must have had a knowledgeable sys admin just to set it up.

 

Then she proclaimed she was continuing Obama’s policies and I just cringed and gave up on her, in my opinion we needed a fresh start with an experienced woman as the POTUS not more of the same.

 

It is funny Obama ran under the flag of change but it was change from his administration and time in office that got me to vote for Trump.

 

I had given up on getting any qualified candidate and said ok let’s role the dice. I detest the Trump  personality firing people on T.V. But who knows?

 

Still do not like Trump the personality but do like the policies and the progress thus far. 

 

I hope during the next elections there are better choices.