Anger as Power

[greatsaiyaman]

Hello. I have read from a few sources that anger is depleting and "negative" and although I agree that anger can be destructive if not properly controlled. I believe that anger can be transmuted into raw spiritual power. I also believe that anger can be just as useful as love. Ppl preach constantly to let go of anger..I personally feel that anger can be used to transform chi to even greater heights.

 

Thoughts?

[Lost in Translation]

Giving in to anger is like maxing out a new credit card. Yes, you can get a lot done very quickly, but you'll pay a big price eventually.

[wandelaar]

Anger is only useful as a biological emergency measure, but as LiT rightly remarks it takes a big toll later on. Anger is unhealthy for your body and it destroys the possibility of objective reasoning and your piece of mind. The ancient Stoics had a lot to say about anger management.

[Lost in Translation]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Anger is only useful as a biological emergency measure,

 

Correct, but I would remove the word 'only' from the above, since that unconsciously diminishes and marginalizes anger as an objectively bad thing. Anger is not bad, but it is limited. 

[wandelaar]

Why do you think anger in itself is not bad?

[rideforever]

Yes moralising about anger is same as moralising about compassion or anything else .... it becomes a black/white issue with no intelligence.

Anger is about action, seeing a need and acting on it ... so do that ... act.

And w.r.t wuxing anger transforms to caring ... meaning moving towards people and helping them.

If you are angry at the world it might indicate a stage of spiritual development requiring you to let go of old ideas and become more awakened.

So it indicates something active needs to be done and is not being done .... so move.
If it becomes a smoking dark anger it is poisonous and then difficult to deal with, and might want to hide it.   But this is not good, must find way to act / transmute.

There are many opportunities to be angry in this society.

Anger is very unhealthy if left on its own.

[Lost in Translation]

15 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Why do you think anger in itself is not bad?

 

Anger has a purpose, just as fear, or love, or compassion, or hate has a purpose. It is a basic element in the toolkit of life that we each possess.

 

For example: A man is stalking women in a town. He is a menage to society and needs to be stopped. It is perfectly normal for the people of the town to feel anger towards the man. It is perfectly normal to hate him. This anger, driven by hatred, is the energy that propels the people forward in their pursuit.

[wandelaar]

Anger doesn't only work for good men but also for misguides ones and for bad ones. It propels all kinds of people. So that doesn't solve the issue.

 

Besides: there are many stories in Taoism and Zen that aim at transcending anger in order to better achieve one's goal.

 

[Aetherous]

15 hours ago, greatsaiyaman said:

I believe that anger can be transmuted into raw spiritual power.

 

The opposite is true...your connection to the spiritual is shut down entirely when you choose anger.

It might feel like power, but it's not. Observe what it does to your rationality and wisdom in the moment, and observe what it does to you over time...just bad effects.

 

Quote

I also believe that anger can be just as useful as love.

 

It certainly has its place in a well balanced life.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Aetherous

[Lost in Translation]

Anger is a weapon, like a club, knife, or gun. It can be used by good people to achieve good things. It can be used by bad people to achieve bad things.

 

Anger is also like a flame. It consumes that which gives it life. If anger is allowed to burn for too long then it will consume its host entirely, twisting and warping him into the same thing that he despises. As such, anger must be tempered with wisdom and bound by justice.

 

It is in this regard that I compared anger to a new credit card. Just as credit cards are used to facilitate purchases, anger is to facilitate actions. And just as credit cards should not be overused to the point of indebtedness, anger should not be overused to the point of burnout.

[wandelaar]

@ LiT

 

A wise post! But then what do you think about the stories in Taoism and Zen that aim at transcending anger particularly for warriors and fighting cocks.

[Lost in Translation]

24 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@ LiT

 

A wise post! But then what do you think about the stories in Taoism and Zen that aim at transcending anger particularly for warriors and fighting cocks.

 

There are also stories about Taoist Immortals who use sex, drunkenness and anger to know Tao. Take a look at the Eight Immortals.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Immortals

 

My favorite is Lu Dongbin.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lü_Dongbin

 

Quote

Lü Dongbin is usually portrayed as a scholarly, clever man with a genuine desire to help people obtain wisdom/enlightenment and to learn the Tao. However, he is often portrayed as having some character "flaws", not an uncommon theme for the colorful Taoist immortals, all of whom in general have various eccentricities:

 

He is said to be a ladies man, even after (or only after) becoming an immortal – and for this reason he is generally not invoked by people with romantic problems. This may also relate to some of the Taoist sexual arts.

 

He is portrayed as having bouts of drunkenness, which was not uncommon among the often fun-loving Eight Immortals. This also parallels several Taoist artists renowned for their love of drinking.

 

One story relates that early on after becoming immortal, he had a strong temper as a "young" immortal, even deforming a riverbank in a bout of anger.

 

Lü was also a prolific poet. His works were collected in the Quan Tangshi (Complete Tang poetry).

 

[wandelaar]

@ LiT

 

Don't see how those stories prove your point. It rather looks like Lu Dongbin had to transcend anger (and other strong emotions) to become an immortal.

[Lost in Translation]

41 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@ LiT

 

Don't see how those stories prove your point. It rather looks like Lu Dongbin had to transcend anger (and other strong emotions) to become an immortal.

 

The Wikipedia is limited in its treatment of him. 

 

The Eight Immortals of Taoism, by Kwok Man Ho and Joanne O'Brien is an interesting book that delves in detail in to the lives of the Eight Immortals. It shows that gaining immortality does not mean letting go of human emotions, at least not right away.

 

Quote

Although the Eight Immortals dedicated their lives to the needy and the poor, they were by no means perfect. They all had their weaknesses and faults, especially Lu Tong Pin, the youngest and the least experienced. He could be boastful, proud, and a bad loser.

 

One summer Lu Tong Pin was traveling by boat down the Ou river, playing chess with the helms,man to relieve his boredom. After a competitive game the helmsman finally won. Lu Tong Pin was so angry and humiliated that he shot the chess set into the water. From that time on, there was a mountain on the  banks of the Ou river that was shaped like a chess set.

 

The following summer, Lu Tong Pin returned to the Ou river determined to exact revenge upon the helmsman and any inhabitants of the Ou river.

 

pp. 79

 

https://www.amazon.com/Eight-Immortals-Taoism-Legends-Popular/dp/0452010705

 

Eventually Lu Dong Bin realizes the futility of anger, or at least the futility of holding on to anger after it has served its purpose, but he realizes this well after achieving immortality.

 

If you decide to buy this book then let me know. It's an interesting read.

[wandelaar]

The following from Wikipedia suggests that overcoming strong emotions was essential to his becoming an immortal:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lü_Dongbin#Ten_trials_of_Lü_Dongbin

 

Anyway - a possible explanation for the stories in Taoism and Zen that aim at transcending anger particularly for warriors and fighting cocks is that such is essential for those who are involved in fighting as an occupation. It would burn them up to get angry on a regular basis and it would greatly diminish their ability to efficiently execute the more advanced fighting techniques.

 

I have decided to not delve into religious Taoism as I have already too much to study by just concentrating on Lao tzu and Chuang tzu only.

[Lost in Translation]

This came up on YouTube. It seems apt.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[greatsaiyaman]

On 12/9/2018 at 2:10 PM, Aetherous said:

 

The opposite is true...your connection to the spiritual is shut down entirely when you choose anger.

It might feel like power, but it's not. Observe what it does to your rationality and wisdom in the moment, and observe what it does to you over time...just bad effects.

 

 

It certainly has its place in a well balanced life.

I don't think you understand. I mean storing the anger in the Dantian with the intent of transmuting it into raw spiritual power. Not dwelling on the anger and allowing it to consume you and cause the health of your mind and spirit to deteriorate. But to transform it and use it as pure fuel. Not dwelling or being controlled by it. Just using anger purely as a source of power.

[rideforever]

Anger often is an over reaction caused by being vulnerable inside.   And it is useful in a fight, but for many (like me) it just lingers and ruins everything in your life.   One must be prepared to return to the vulnerable and give up your dreams, heal yourself, then everything will be better.   Fantasising about anger, saying it is power, is unhelpful.   It is not real power.   Real power is like mountain.  Silent.

[ilumairen]

9 hours ago, greatsaiyaman said:

I don't think you understand. I mean storing the anger in the Dantian with the intent of transmuting it into raw spiritual power. Not dwelling on the anger and allowing it to consume you and cause the health of your mind and spirit to deteriorate. But to transform it and use it as pure fuel. Not dwelling or being controlled by it. Just using anger purely as a source of power.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend this - intentionally storing anger. 

 

[Pilgrim]

Hulk Smash! Angrier Hulk Gets Stronger Hulk Gets! 

 

Bah Puny Humans! 

 

Hulk strongest one there is!!

 

Hulk is Hulk no call Hulk Puny Banner Hulk Hates Puny Banner! 

 

Hulk Parking Hulks Ass!

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Pilgrim

[s1va]

On 12/8/2018 at 9:49 PM, greatsaiyaman said:

Hello. I have read from a few sources that anger is depleting and "negative" and although I agree that anger can be destructive if not properly controlled. I believe that anger can be transmuted into raw spiritual power. I also believe that anger can be just as useful as love. Ppl preach constantly to let go of anger..I personally feel that anger can be used to transform chi to even greater heights.

 

Thoughts?

 

Anger once acted upon is always destructive and it cannot be transmuted.  Very few can just observe the underlying emotion and not act on it, 'anger' generally means it is already acted upon and therefore is destructive.  But whatever is causing the anger underneath is generally some type of obstruction from a deep seated emotion, that can be let go by just observing & being totally present with the emotion and not acting on it.  By following a process like what is described in The Presence Process by Michael Brown.  Easier said than done at the early stages.  But someone who consistently follows the process will go through a transformation and eventually reach a state of clarity from where they can just observe it as ripples that arise in mind.  With time the rising of such ripples will also subside.

[Aetherous]

11 hours ago, greatsaiyaman said:

I don't think you understand. I mean storing the anger in the Dantian with the intent of transmuting it into raw spiritual power. Not dwelling on the anger and allowing it to consume you and cause the health of your mind and spirit to deteriorate. But to transform it and use it as pure fuel. Not dwelling or being controlled by it. Just using anger purely as a source of power.

 

This seems like a bad idea for a few reasons...
1) Dantian contains the word "field". It's in the area of the earth element in our bodies, which just like soil in a garden, has the tendency to grow what you put into it. Put anger into it, and you'll get more anger out of it...if one is even capable of knowing how to store an emotion they're experiencing.

2) Anger causes a rising of qi, which drains the jing. It's like having a fire and throwing a candle into it, versus having a candle with a little flame lit on top...throwing a candle into a fire will cause the wax to melt down within a minute. Just having a lit candle means it'll last the normal amount of time, probably hours or days. So, anger shortens life.
3) Dantian work, such as when we feel heat in the belly, turns jing into qi. Combining anger, which already drains the jing, with a method that further depletes the jing, might amplify that negative effect and further shorten your life.

 

It's just not a spiritual technique. The right way to transmute anger is to choose an actual spiritual quality, like mercy, or kindness, and focus on cultivating that. When you're angry, find ways to consciously choose the a quality that counteracts the anger.

Some Buddhists have this technique where they imagine the person they're angry with is in the hell realms...they imagine for instance that one of these hell realms is so hot that the person's skin is constantly burnt and peeling off, that there's no water in sight and they're constantly dying of thirst, their eyes burn from the heat, they're walking across the desert barefoot and the sand is searing the skin of their feet, but if they stay in one place it burns their feet even more, etc...and in this realm time goes slow, so one day on earth lasts 10,000 years in the hell realm. The Buddhists imagine their enemy being there, as best and as realistic as they can, imagining what the enemy feels...and then (if they're not a sociopath), a natural compassion starts to spring up for that person they're angry at. That's one method. To be clear - its purpose is to cause compassion to spring up for the enemy through imagination, and is not to try and manifest it into reality with your mind or get some pleasure out of torturing the person you're angry at. The imagining has no real world effect, except for softening your heart toward that person due to the fact that we don't want anyone to suffer that much.

It also helps to focus on at least one redeeming quality the person has, who you're angry at. Let's say if you're aware that they helped someone else at one time. Just that one instance of them being a help to another person is enough to concentrate on...and the more you think of how they were a good person in that moment, the more likely you'll see them being good in all moments, similar to how you see your own best friend or even yourself. Another similar method is that you can imagine in the previous life, they were your mother, and they helped you just in that same way, except their every waking moment was devoted to thinking of how to benefit you. Now in this present life, they're confused and don't know how to act right, but in the previous one they were the one person looking out for you. So this is another mind training of how to turn someone you're angry at into someone you can have positivity toward.

So those are Buddhist methods. But really, spiritual techniques aren't about empowering oneself with anger. Anger is a using up of power, it's not power itself. It's kind of similar to if someone takes cocaine...gives them quite the rush, but it also speeds up their life and ends it quicker. If someone is very yin, cocaine or anger might seem like they have a normalizing effect, and give them the boost they need to get out of the slump...but I'd suggest that the yin person simply exercise more, and that will increase their energy. With normal energy, we don't need things to empower our spirituality. Legitimate spiritual practices, as are taught by real teachers and traditions, are the way to go.

[thelerner]

My thoughts.  Anger can be a good tool and an honest strategy to get what you want* .  To show other parties you are serious and need attention.   It's not a tool to be used often but at times its the right one.  If you continue to feel angry after an event is over, then you're not using it properly.

 

My sensei would say, if you're angry, be angry, but don't feed it. 

 

*hopefully constructive.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

On 12/8/2018 at 7:49 PM, greatsaiyaman said:

Hello. I have read from a few sources that anger is depleting and "negative" and although I agree that anger can be destructive if not properly controlled. I believe that anger can be transmuted into raw spiritual power. I also believe that anger can be just as useful as love. Ppl preach constantly to let go of anger..I personally feel that anger can be used to transform chi to even greater heights.

 

Thoughts?

 

On 12/12/2018 at 11:08 PM, greatsaiyaman said:

I don't think you understand. I mean storing the anger in the Dantian with the intent of transmuting it into raw spiritual power. Not dwelling on the anger and allowing it to consume you and cause the health of your mind and spirit to deteriorate. But to transform it and use it as pure fuel. Not dwelling or being controlled by it. Just using anger purely as a source of power.

 

I have watched this conversation a little bit because of a historical interest in traditional uses of anger for magic and energy development, it has a long tradition going back to shamanic techniques rooted in war magic and warrior training.  Let us be clear this is weigong, external cultivation, and not neidan, which requires inward training and complete calm, and so some of the criticism voiced so far, are not relevant, if greatsaiyaman is only interested in weigong types of practices.

 

I have emphasized some passages in greatsaiyaman's posts to show that he seems quite aware of what can go wrong, and wants some sort of serious discussion on the matter, not advice from people who have not paid much attention to his posts, but want to lecture him about them anyway, though they have raised some valid and good points, I prefer to listen to someone a little longer before I start to either praise or criticize their ideas or actions.

 

So, taking as a starting point, greatsaiyaman, why do you "believe that anger can be transmuted into raw spiritual power. I also believe that anger can be just as useful as love."?  Is this something that you have read about, tried and found successful, is it something that you are learning from someone, or is it the result of some spontaneous experiences that you have had?  Where I have seen this type of thing done in a Chinese context it is usually done after a fair amount of training, and more often then not either in a martial arts setting, or in some cases, Chinese Sorcery, in both of which extreme and potentially dangerous training methods can be used, with that in mind, the one thing I will say upfront is that someone who is trying to do something like what greatsaiyaman is talking about, should have a good knowledge of TCM and preferably be under the guidance of a teacher to avoid problems, which from what I understand, can be very difficult to recover from if things have gone too far.

 

ZYD

[greatsaiyaman]

2 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

 

I have watched this conversation a little bit because of a historical interest in traditional uses of anger for magic and energy development, it has a long tradition going back to shamanic techniques rooted in war magic and warrior training.  Let us be clear this is weigong, external cultivation, and not neidan, which requires inward training and complete calm, and so some of the criticism voiced so far, are not relevant, if greatsaiyaman is only interested in weigong types of practices.

 

I have emphasized some passages in greatsaiyaman's posts to show that he seems quite aware of what can go wrong, and wants some sort of serious discussion on the matter, not advice from people who have not paid much attention to his posts, but want to lecture him about them anyway, though they have raised some valid and good points, I prefer to listen to someone a little longer before I start to either praise or criticize their ideas or actions.

 

So, taking as a starting point, greatsaiyaman, why do you "believe that anger can be transmuted into raw spiritual power. I also believe that anger can be just as useful as love."?  Is this something that you have read about, tried and found successful, is it something that you are learning from someone, or is it the result of some spontaneous experiences that you have had?  Where I have seen this type of thing done in a Chinese context it is usually done after a fair amount of training, and more often then not either in a martial arts setting, or in some cases, Chinese Sorcery, in both of which extreme and potentially dangerous training methods can be used, with that in mind, the one thing I will say upfront is that someone who is trying to do something like what greatsaiyaman is talking about, should have a good knowledge of TCM and preferably be under the guidance of a teacher to avoid problems, which from what I understand, can be very difficult to recover from if things have gone too far.

 

ZYD

Hello. And thank you. I am working on releasing anger now because something inside of me says that they may be right about it. I believed anger was power because it is a very raw emotion. The most raw emotion, or at least one of them. I felt dat anger could be transmuted depending on how you observe it. If you don't attach the anger to the negativity itself, but simply view it as a raw emotion of power. You could then,mentally, take that vibration of dat emotion for the purpose of elevating your soul power and then it becomes a positive thing. Although I could be wrong. It has been something I've experimented with and I admit it did have some strange side effects as well as feeling too fiery. Excess fire. So. My new approach is emotional content, in the context that Bruce lee taught. You don't have to be angry to be passionate. You don't need anger to draw out strength or vigor. You don't need anger for raw power. It may look like anger, but it's not the same.