Taoist meditation

[wandelaar]

@ Wu Ming Jen

 

I am not interested in the second and third type of meditation and I don't even believe in the possibility of gaining powers or eternal living.

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by wandelaar

[wandelaar]

13 minutes ago, OldDog said:

The point being, one has to be open to the notion of other possible sources of perception and explore to find them and kearn to make use of them. Meditation helps with this process.

 

One has to open to the possibility of other possible sources of perception and one has to be open to the possibility of errors in those other sources of perception. And only critical investigation can decide what is the case.

[OldDog]

22 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

The first type is for eliminating illness and for achieving a healthy body

 

No doubt there is some contibution but I am reminded of the legend of Bodhidharma visiting the Shaolin monks and finding their physical condition poor and introducing exercises to strengthen the body. Regardless of factual historical accuracy or the ultimate development of a martisl art, the point being that physical exercise is reauired for health. An expanded notion of what constitutes meditation to include moving meditations seems advisable.

 

22 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

... experimentation and for seeking the unusual and strange, as well as for gaining powers.

 

Yes, this is part of what I am suggesting. By quieting the mind ones awareness of other processes is enhanced. I would hesitate to call those powers but rather abilities. That's just probably me. When I hear about powers Marvel comics and Justice League spring to mind. Outlandish and a bit of a distraction.

 

22 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

... gaining an eternally living and immortal body ..

 

These are esoteric daoist concepts that, while I cannot dispute their validity, I find to be a bit of distraction to making progress with my current existence. I want my practice to be a holistic body-mind-spirit thing using methods that I am capable of understanding and dealing with and then trusting that in the end I will benefit to some degree. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by OldDog
Grammar

[OldDog]

28 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

And only critical investigation can decide what is the case.

 

Just so. Each individual become his own laboratory for investigation. Such work is complex just due to the number of variables involed. Key to investigation is the ability to manipulate variables and observe effect. For this sort of investigation ... thst is investigation of internal processes ... the only variables that you can manipulate are your own internal variables. 

[doc benway]

21 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Thank you - your description is crystal clear. I could do that. But I can't do both, because that would take me too much time. So doing meditation on my belly will mean less attention meditation on my thoughts and feelings. That's the problem: I am happy with my current form of meditation, so why change to other forms of meditation that would mean less practice of my current meditation? One can't try everything anyhow because that would mean never settling for serious practice of one or a few preferred forms of meditation.

 

No need to change anything, you asked about the belly - i offered a direction to go.

Take it or leave it.

 

Attention to thoughts and feelings is generally not meditation.

The thoughts and feelings arise endlessly, they come and go. 

Engaging with them, dwelling on them, limiting them in any way, is distraction from meditation.

It's what we already know so very well.

There is more, if you are interested in a broader perspective.

 

If you are happy with thoughts and feelings, wonderful.

No need to worry about opening the belly, heart, throat, crown, etc...

Enjoy what works for you.

 

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Then what do you mean by "beyond mind"?

 

Dis-identification with the thinker, the thoughts, the feelings.

Identification with something much deeper and wiser, the source of spontaneity and creativity.

To some degree mind will always engage while we live.

It is more a matter of determining the limits of mind, in the tradition I follow it is a distinction between mind and its essence or nature.

A classic analogy is like differentiation between waves and the ocean.

Many traditions discuss it in terms of dual and non-dual experience.

It is experiential in nature so if you don't have the time or interest in practice, better to ignore the 'idea.

The 'idea' isn't worth much.

[wandelaar]

42 minutes ago, steve said:

Attention to thoughts and feelings is generally not meditation.

The thoughts and feelings arise endlessly, they come and go. 

Engaging with them, dwelling on them, limiting them in any way, is distraction from meditation.

It's what we already know so very well.

There is more, if you are interested in a broader perspective.

 

If you are happy with thoughts and feelings, wonderful.

No need to worry about opening the belly, heart, throat, crown, etc...

Enjoy what works for you.

 

But that's not what I do when I meditate. I observe the thoughts and feelings, but I don't feed them. Or rather - that is what I try to do, and that's difficult enough because it is all too easy to follow along with one's thoughts and feelings and then one starts daydreaming. So I have to restart with just observing my thought and feelings each time that I notice that I have started daydreaming again. And that is what I do. I learned of this practice from my study of Zen.

[doc benway]

50 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

But that's not what I do when I meditate. I observe the thoughts and feelings, but I don't feed them. Or rather - that is what I try to do, and that's difficult enough because it is all too easy to follow along with one's thoughts and feelings and then one starts daydreaming. So I have to restart with just observing my thought and feelings each time that I notice that I have started daydreaming again. And that is what I do. I learned of this practice from my study of Zen.

 

That's a good practice.

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I’d like to adress the Wandelaars statements of qi and such being pure unfonded esoterics.

 

The thing with qi within the context of a given tradition and/or the field it is from is that it’s neither esoterica nor unfounded, i think it could be useful for you Wandelaar to observe the concept of qi and such as part of a explanation model or a paradigm of understanding.

From the point of view of the model where qi is used to describe and refer to different specifics and mechanisms it is both thoroughly researched and found to be useful and conductive to development of theories and practices within that paradigm.

 

When it comes to chakras my hears withdraw easily from listening since i find that particular word and definition to be part of a different paradigm that holds little interest for me and i’m very careful when the contexts are mixed, it sets of my NAAWS (New Age Alert Warning System) and my bias switches from as neutral as possible to fairly skeptical immediately.

I’m pretty much allergic to crossbreeding practices and lineages since few of those who do so have a lifetime of experience in testing the validity and functionality of it. Crossover stuff needs a few generations of systematic and coherence-directed research before its reached a point i feel it could be offered up to other experienced practicioners for feedback and development.

Sure, there is a lot of hogwash and stupidity floating around but modern science has its own mass of the same. Lets not forget flogiston or the aether, that stuff isn’t very old and it’s regarded as ridiculus.

 

Sure, the theory and language are not founded on the theoretical ground of modern empirical science, from where the periodic table was formed for instance, but the basic method of research is still empirical in both the qualitative and quantitative sense. Trial and error, falsification and corroboration, testing and recording results and using a fairly stringent terminology to describe the above. It’s all there.

It wont fit the current dominant paradigm of science but it has not survived and kept its relevance without dedicated work that requires diligent study and a critical approach.

It’s not all that esoteric, especially if compared to a dedicated field of study within modern science where the foundational work has already been laid down. Learning it needs 101, 201 and 301 etc and this brings a freshman student closer to specialist research knowledge. Comparing it meaningfully to scientific acedmia focused on research and development is not a stretch or a leap of immagination in my humble opinion. Classic styles of qigong, neigong and internal martial arts can be approached thusly with good success by a student whose critical thinking is switched on, but not in the sense of comparing it strictly to a fully different and well developed scientifical paradigm, as the two do not share the same conclusions about their materia prima even if the most successful developments have been based on and continued with the same stringent empirical approach.

 

I’m not looking to criticize your skepticism the least, i share it, but i found the underlying thinking on which i base my observations above to be a way to stay in the field without stumbling over my own limited understanding and ending up throwing everything out with the bath water out of frustration. There is some pretty interesting and beneficial stuff in the so called esoteric aspects of taoist practice, but it will do little good if you approach it as a student wanting to become a medicial research scientist to have access to all the incredible mutagens in there because they want to become superman. They’ll be dissappointed as fuck if not quickly diagnosed with cancer or toxicity.

 

Sorry about the wall of text here, xmas times with the family has this part of me understimulated like hell

 

 

I also noticed a seeming interchangeability between the words awareness and attention, correct me if i’m wrong.

I think that both Rara and I share the idea that the two are separated, where awareness is exactly what it means and attention is a focused and directed form of observational awarness and inquiry. Attention is needed at times, but awareness in meditation is equal to observing the broad spectrum of process and results, while attention is a tool to evaluate the experiments and the lab for any need of correction in either tools or method.

 

Hope any of it is useful for you, if not rejoice that i finally found the words to describe these thoughts.

 

Happy holidays!

 

[wandelaar]

@ Rocky Lionmouth

 

Thanks for your large post.

 

1 hour ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Sure, there is a lot of hogwash and stupidity floating around but modern science has its own mass of the same. Lets not forget flogiston or the aether, that stuff isn’t very old and it’s regarded as ridiculus.

 

They are not regarded as ridiculous, but as obsolete. That's a big difference. And as regards the aether there are even scientist who still work with the concept (although a small minority). The great thing about science is that it continually improves upon older theories, and that isn't a sign of weakness but of strength.

 

I have already read a lot about chi, but I still have some more books to go. However I would be very much surprised when the concept of chi would turn out to be of greater explanatory power than our own rather vague concepts of vitality and energy (when we take them in the obscure New Age sense).

 

Further - as an einzelgänger I am in the happy circumstance of being able to almost completely ignore the silly annual Xmas business.

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by wandelaar

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Well, i do like the secular christmas thing we do up here in sweden but there’s more or less zero room for this type of discussion within the family circle, my belly is full and i am quite at peace, but there is a part of me that is restless while dormant

Pardon my ignorance but whats an einzelgänger?

 

 

True, thats an important distinction and i’m thankful you pointed it out, obsolete (for the moment at least) is quite different from ridiculus.

 

Indeed yes, the strenght of improving upon older theories is remarkable. As far as my limited experience goes in the context of classical martial arts i see this happening also, a lineage holder has the choice to preserve a thing and so ensuring it transitions towards a torpor if not permanent death or continue to work and improve, study etc on the body of knowledge. Each generation that continues with the latter maintains the organism core.

 

Qi is an umbrella term yes, and NA influence on the use and understanding of vitality and energy alongside qi has indeed muddled the waters considerably.

The term qi, when used and understood with the right semantics and semiotics is far more explanatory compared to both our own words, within a given context where its use is part of a defined terminology.

This terminology is farily obscure because of many reasons but i do believe the primary one to be that there are few who are at the adequate level of knowledge and comprehension, at least in proportion to those who have a ”popularized science” understanding of it.

Sure you can substitute qi for energy but only successfully so if painting with a broad brush, because not using the correct term does what it does as we all know.

Thats why qi has well defined subcategories depending on context and school: qi of this, qi of that. Those distinctions are as important as the one you made.

I’m not promoting pseudoscience, thats not my intention at least, i’m just saying that if a term isn’t transferrable to quantifiable terms within a very different paradigm then it’s not necessarily useless.

I took a leap of faith when i decided to approach my practices from a ”blank slate” knowledge base without discarding my innate observational senses and their relevance, i’m still not on the verge of finding THE BRIDGE between the paradigms. I went native for the sole purpose of actually giving the work a chance to prove itself by its own standards when a firm ground was established. Twelve years later i’m approaching a half cluelessness with regards to understanding and refining my basics is still highest priority because i mustnt let NA/perennialism fertilize this soil and lead me to ignorant statements such as ”oh i get it, this thing is the same as this other completely unrelated thing because i found all my understanding on a soft, sticky ad-hoc tautology”. I’m anal like that, i’ve seen far too much dismissal of valid stuff from ”science”-believers as a consequence of ignorant wannabe-gurus who spouting toxic woo while they wouldnt be able to tell the different traditions apart enough to say whats what and whats been made up by themselves because they ”just get it maan”. Yuck.

 

Wether or not it’s even remotely insteresting for someone otoh is a completeley different thing of course. Sorry if i’m bugging you with this, i was merely hoping to point towards a possible way of delving deeper without compromising your sound reasoning. 

[wandelaar]

There has to be a paradigm in which chi (in its different forms) makes at least some sense, for otherwise the concept would have been given up long ago. But the question remains how much sense it makes. One of the best books about it - I am told - is this one:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Study-Qi-Classical-Texts/dp/1872468284

 

I already bought the book, and we will see how I think about chi when I have read it.

[Swede]

3 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Well, i do like the secular christmas thing we do up here in sweden but there’s more or less zero room for this type of discussion within the family circle, my belly is full and i am quite at peace, but there is a part of me that is restless while dormant   

 

/Off topic...

There is nothing better than a swedish julbord! 

Back on topic... \

[voidisyinyang]

16 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Classic styles of qigong, neigong and internal martial arts can be approached thusly with good success by a student whose critical thinking is switched on, but not in the sense of comparing it strictly to a fully different and well developed scientifical paradigm, as the two do not share the same conclusions about their materia prima even if the most successful developments have been based on and continued with the same stringent empirical approach.

 

Have you considered the noncommutative phase research of Stanford Linear Accelerator Center physicist Eddie Oshins, also a teacher of Wingchun (and Daoist Neigong)? He figured out the secret - I figured out the same secret as him. But I realized since I figured out - the Western science meaning of Daoist neidan - then SOMEBODY out there must also have figured it out.  I kept searching on my own - and finally discovered Eddie Oshins.

 

16 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

I think that both Rara and I share the idea that the two are separated, where awareness is exactly what it means and attention is a focused and directed form of observational awarness and inquiry. Attention is needed at times, but awareness in meditation is equal to observing the broad spectrum of process and results, while attention is a tool to evaluate the experiments and the lab for any need of correction in either tools or method.

 

 

Attention is proven by science to be right brain dominant. Awareness could be left brain or right brain dominant - depending on if it is visual or sound (word) based. But in meditation there is also a definition of awareness as "formless awareness" which is the equivalent of Yuan Qi in Daoist alchemy. So in that context "consciousness" is what is normally called awareness - and "awareness" is actually the 5th dimension as formless awareness.... So yeah it's confusing.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Many thanks @voidisyinyang for the tip on Oshins, i have not taken part of his findings, i hope i might understand them.

 

Well, i’ll have to look into the matter of right and left sides of the brain. The formless awarness i am familiar with from meditation and i suspect it could correspond to the silver within water, but i cant say if it is Yuan Qi or not.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

10 hours ago, Swede said:

 

/Off topic...

There is nothing better than a swedish julbord! 

Back on topic... \

 

I broke my 18 year ham abstinence yesterday for a delicious piece of grilled ham with strong coarse mustard, apple sauce on dark bread. My god it was delicious. Well worth waiting for.

[Mudfoot]

Janssons frestelse och dopp-i-gryta for lunch, and then I had a salt overload for the rest of the day. No more food, just beverages. 

[OldDog]

16 hours ago, wandelaar said:

But the question remains how much sense it makes.

 

 

That's a fair question. How to get to the answer?

 

At some point, you have to stop reading about qi and begin doing something ... working with it ... discovering it. 

 

I first heard about qi through martial arts. Martial qi discussions are legendary. And everyone who does martial arts seeks the ability to use it. But it is not until you begin looking at other things that the concept of qi begins to expand ... meditation, qigong, TCM.

 

For me it was TCM ... specifically acupuncture ... that took me from just reading and talking about it to experiencing it. And what a realization ... what an experience! My TCM practitioner helped greatly by not only performing the acupuncture but by helping me understand the feeling and sensations I was experiencing. Qi became something that could be related to physically, concretely. Since then, I have experienced qi in other ways. It has been great to explore it, work with it, integrate it.

 

There is no explaining qi ... no denying it. Either you have experienced it or not. At some point you have to start doing to understand it.

[Mudfoot]

17 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 One of the best books about it - I am told - is this one:

All of her books are good, I have found The seven emotions and Wuxing very useful for deepening my understanding of my basic qigong set, they also parallell current research on movements related to emotional states. 

[doc benway]

17 hours ago, wandelaar said:

There has to be a paradigm in which chi (in its different forms) makes at least some sense, for otherwise the concept would have been given up long ago. But the question remains how much sense it makes. One of the best books about it - I am told - is this one:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Study-Qi-Classical-Texts/dp/1872468284

 

I already bought the book, and we will see how I think about chi when I have read it.

 

For me personally, Qi is not something to be made sense of in an intellectual way.

Making sense of Qi is like making sense of the flavor of a mango.

You can read all you want but until you taste it yourself, the words are empty.

And even after you've tasted it, how much intellect is necessary to analyze the experience?

After having the experience, however, you can understand written descriptions and associate them with the experience. 

You first need that frame of reference created by direct experience.

 

I suggest it is best approached through practice, like Qigong, Taijiquan, or Daoist Meditation.

Even something as simply as "opening the belly" as I described earlier for you.

Once you begin to have a taste of the direct experience, all of the classical writings suddenly make perfect sense. 

You can then play all kinds of intellectual game with it but you also recognize that the intellect has little value in matters of Qi.

This is why Daoist sages like Zhuangzi devalued intellectual activity and emphasized the experiential. 

[wandelaar]

Thanks for the comments. Unhappily they are in line with my suspicion that chi as experienced by Taoist and Martial Arts practitioner's doesn't point to something real. I did karate, yoga, meditation, and qi gong but I didn't experience chi. The experience of chi isn't a necessary result of the mentioned practices. Surely one can learn to feel all kinds of things, and suggestion, doctrinal studies, and visualisation will help to experience chi. But as long as objective tests and rational analysis are banned the experience of chi may be nothing more than a (sub)culturally induced experience, and not the alternative form of observation that it is claimed to be. I believe the many people who claim to have experienced chi, but I am not convinced of the correctness of their interpretation of those experiences. And I wouldn't even be convinced of the correctness of their interpretation if I had those experiences myself. Subjective experiences are to be taken with a grain of salt.
 

Edited December 25, 2018 by wandelaar
Stated my opinion somewhat clearer.

[rideforever]

 

26 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

And I wouldn't even be convinced if I had those experiences myself. Subjective experiences are to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Strange, I suppose this means that when you experience something, you reject it.

That's quite strange.
What is it you accept then ?  The experts on TV ?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2018 by rideforever

[voidisyinyang]

14 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Many thanks @voidisyinyang for the tip on Oshins, i have not taken part of his findings, i hope i might understand them.

 

Well, i’ll have to look into the matter of right and left sides of the brain. The formless awarness i am familiar with from meditation and i suspect it could correspond to the silver within water, but i cant say if it is Yuan Qi or not.

the yin qi, as detailed in the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality, is considered just to be undeveloped or immature yuan qi.

What's the difference between psychic yin qi and spiritual yuan qi energy? There is a story of the alchemist visiting the tantric who enjoyed longevity and health - but after the alchemist taught him the truth, then the tantric spit up all this silver liquid. His longevity and health were the silver mercury as yang qi - that had not be purified by the Spirit in the third eye. The left eye is the Sun as yang shen but it is also yin qi as wood, the liver. So at first the red dragon goes down into the black tiger to then rise up as the green dragon hidden in the white tiger - manifesting as yang qi - silver lunar energy - blue-white. So the blue light as the yang qi is the right eye as metal but with the yin shen as the Moon. So the eyes have to be rotated - this is the focus of chapter 6 and on in the book Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality. So if the Shen laser energy does not burn or ionize the yang qi (with substance) then the Yuan Qi can not be created.

 

Quote

Qigong master Yan Xin "While observing the world, we should use our mind, consciousness, and qigong abilities, such as the so-called "telepathic function," to listen to and hear deeply and clearly the endless, ever-changing, mysteriously wonderful notes of all beings. While observing the world with our eyes, we hear the sound of the heart of the world. This is a qigong method, principle, technique and effect. We deviate from true Guanyin Qigong if we fail to make efforts to cultivate virtue. We miss the point if we simply focus on blind worship, hand posture and mantras - paying attention only to visible and superficial external effects while ignoring the true essence of these qigong methods. Qigong Master Yan Xin

Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality:

Quote

The student, awakened to the teaching, should strive to  control his heart (the house of fire) by driving his mind  into the field of concentration so as to still and disengage  it from sense data. When the mind stops wandering outside,  consciousness will melt away, and the five aggregates will  be empty of externals so that spirit and vitality will gather  and stay within and no longer scatter without. Who says that sublimation by fire cannot be taught   Since only silent circuits can plumb the depth sublime? Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality ..."          The True Yang...the  Yang principle is born from Zi and is stored in the Gate of Life....As it rises, it merges with Li [Fire], and by replenishing Li, it forms Qian [Heaven]. The yin principle returns where it belongs, the Yang principle is transformed, and one reverts to the origin.         p. 30, Foundations of Internal Alchemy, quoting Wang Haican (Yuan Dynasty).

 

So in science we can state - mercury (blue-white as silver) in contrast to gold - the mercury does not rely on relativistic spin and so the gold color is not created. The relativistic spin is the 5th dimension as non-local phase.

 

So the blue light is absorbed - but when light goes into a 5D black hole - then green light is the first to be observed - as the Yuan Qi energy.  And so the Dragon is female - since it has to descend again down the front - from the white tiger going up  - the yang qi with substance is able to cause the Li to merge and form Heaven - and the yin as white tiger returns with the Green Dragon transformed, as Earth - yellow-red, Gold - since the blue light got absorbed.

 

So the eyes do a reversal - by rotating but also visualizing internally - the Sun and Moon lights externally are able to merge as the silver (blue) and gold (red).... the Yellow light as the internal Yuan Shen is the Yellow Sprouts - the true intention that has the yang within the yin and yin within the yang...

 

 

[vonkrankenhaus]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

they are in line with my suspicion that chi as experienced by Taoist and Martial Arts practitioner's doesn't point to something real. I did karate, yoga, meditation, and qi gong but I didn't experience chi. The experience of chi isn't a necessary result of the mentioned practices. Surely one can learn to feel all kinds of things, and suggestion, doctrinal studies, and visualisation will help to experience chi. But as long as objective tests and rational analysis are banned the experience of chi may be nothing more than a (sub)culturally induced experience, and not the alternative form of observation that it is claimed to be.

 

Qi is just the movement between the poles of any polarity. Like heat, electricity, etc.

 

It is not any substance, mystical or otherwise, and not any more of an " (sub)culturally induced experience" than Hot/Cold, Wet/Dry, Active/Inactive, etc.

Turn on any faucet - you found Qi.

Get up in the morning - you found Qi.

Inhale and Exhale - you found Qi.

How can we not?

 

Not hard to find. Not hard to understand. Qi is movement. All movement is Yang. Qi in thermodynamics is hot air, and in electricity, it is moving electrons.

 

In Qigong, in the body - there are several polarities working. Study means knowing what these are and how to alter. Techniques. First building a basis by much Gongfu and listening to teachers and study. You can live your whole life and be studying this too.

 

1800s/early 1900s Western academics write crazy translations because they never understood TaiJi philosophy. They just looked for "okay" words to use. Racists too. Check out book by "The Religious Systems of China" by JJM de Groot from 100 yrs ago to see what I mean. Rockefeller organization pays them all, then creates "TCM" with Mao in 1950-53. No wonder there is doubt and debate about "acupuncture" today. It was designed into system.

 

Too much is missing from the "marketplace" for anyone to reconstitute what they are trying to find. People see movie and have fantasies and read books written by people who want money, and then the news and journalist write about this because they want money too. Soon, someone hears about this and opens a fake school because they think it can make them money.

Nobody understands Qi today, even though it is so simple. They refuse. They want to do or debunk things that never happen.

 

Nobody understands YinYang or the rest of TaiJi philosophy either. This is the very basis.

Without this - you don't even understand "Light and Dark", never mind Chinese philosophy and medicine.

 

And without that, you are doing some kind of calisthenics, or having a fantasy, and arguing with each other about details of fictions, or even debunking "heat" and saying doesn't exist - too "mystical" or not mystical enough - people who don't know are never satisfied.  

 

Classics and authentic teachers and your own virtue are the only way. Both first ones mentioned still exist. All it takes is people who can understand these to know how important. Others may be cutting corners off something that doesn't exist and end up debating nonsense videos and tricksters on and on and on.

 

I am just giving an observation from 1970 to now, looking from where I started as a child, to adult. Not meaning to offend anyone or claim superior or anything like that. Just some observation and opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Mudfoot]

9 hours ago, wandelaar said:

  But as long as objective tests and rational analysis are banned the experience of chi may be nothing more than a (sub)culturally induced experience, and not the alternative form of observation that it is claimed to be. I believe the many people who claim to have experienced chi, but I am not convinced of the correctness of their interpretation of those experiences. And I wouldn't even be convinced of the correctness of their interpretation if I had those experiences myself. 

Good point! 

There is a difference between experience and interpretation, and since the mind interprete as we go and try to fit that interpretation into a known world view, there is a lot of bias here. 

 

For myself, I could divide my experiences in two groups: explainable by physiology, and currently stuff I cannot explain. 

 

You might find that with some practice, you can improve your ability of sensing what is going on inside, and you can learn to manipulate functions in your autonomic nervous system. 

And you can call that "qi" if you like, or use words from cognitive psychology or physiology. 

 

And then it is the other group, which might be a form of induced mass delusion. 😁 

Feels good though. 

 

9 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Subjective experiences are to be taken with a grain of salt.
 

Yes! 

 

Unless they are your own, and you find them meaningful to you personally.