Taoist meditation

[wandelaar]

@ vonkrankenhaus

 

There is a lot of - in my mind unnecessary - depreciatory talk about thinking and reasoning in both the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang tzu, although the actual doctrines arrived at in those books nicely complement modern scientific insights. 

[Aetherous]

19 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Thanks for the comments. Unhappily they are in line with my suspicion that chi as experienced by Taoist and Martial Arts practitioner's doesn't point to something real. I did karate, yoga, meditation, and qi gong but I didn't experience chi. The experience of chi isn't a necessary result of the mentioned practices. Surely one can learn to feel all kinds of things, and suggestion, doctrinal studies, and visualisation will help to experience chi. But as long as objective tests and rational analysis are banned the experience of chi may be nothing more than a (sub)culturally induced experience, and not the alternative form of observation that it is claimed to be. I believe the many people who claim to have experienced chi, but I am not convinced of the correctness of their interpretation of those experiences. And I wouldn't even be convinced of the correctness of their interpretation if I had those experiences myself. Subjective experiences are to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Scrape your fingernails against your outer forearm for about 30 seconds, with medium pressure. Not enough to actually damage the skin, but not at all gentle either. Your skin should become red, and warmer.

That's "wei qi".

You can objectively test that a change has occurred...the temperature will truly be different in that spot versus another area of your skin.

You can also just sit there after scraping, and subjectively feel the change that occurred...there's more sensation in the forearm you scratched.

Now you've experienced qi.

[wandelaar]

@ Aetherous

 

I don't need to do that to believe you. I also did the standing exercise some time ago, and it gave me a burning feeling in my calves and shoulders. So I am capable of experiencing bodily feelings in case anybody might doubt it. The disagreement revolves around the interpretation of those bodily feelings. Is "experiencing chi" just an expression for certain bodily feelings, or is it also a form of observation of something called "chi". If the latter than the observation can be more or less accurate as is the case with all kinds of observations. Now the problem is how to test the accuracy of our "experiences of chi". Can it even be tested, or is it just a belief system in which one is initiated by those who already believe it?

[Aetherous]

18 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I don't need to do that to believe you. I also did the standing exercise some time ago, and it gave me a burning feeling in my calves and shoulders. So I am capable of experiencing bodily feelings in case anybody might doubt it. The disagreement revolves around the interpretation of those bodily feelings. Is "experiencing chi" just an expression for certain bodily feelings, or is it also a form of observation of something called "chi". If the latter than the observation can be more or less accurate as is the case with all kinds of observations. Now the problem is how to test the accuracy of our "experiences of chi". Can it even be tested, or is it just a belief system in which one is initiated by those who already believe it?

 

I encourage you to keep reading the post, and actually do what it says to do. That will address all questions.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

So ah, hmm... i was, previously not saying that rational analysis is banned nor that i study and practice for the sake of feeling chi. Just wanted to say that before i express my thanks for allowing me to participate in the discussion and graciously decline parttaking any further.

 

[wandelaar]

17 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

So ah, hmm... i was, previously not saying that rational analysis is banned nor that i study and practice for the sake of feeling chi. Just wanted to say that before i express my thanks for allowing me to participate in the discussion and graciously decline parttaking any further.

 

I have no problem with your posts.

 

But unhappily the discussion has taken an unproductive turn where I could not resist the compulsion to defend the legitimacy of rational analysis even where it concerns spiritual matters. I have read nothing to change my mind on that topic. Nevertheless I should have known that defending my rational stance is a hopeless cause on this forum.

 

Edited December 26, 2018 by wandelaar

[vonkrankenhaus]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Is "experiencing chi" just an expression for certain bodily feelings, or is it also a form of observation of something called "chi". If the latter than the observation can be more or less accurate as is the case with all kinds of observations. Now the problem is how to test the accuracy of our "experiences of chi". Can it even be tested, or is it just a belief system in which one is initiated by those who already believe it?

 

Would you say that about temperature or impact?

 

Those are experiences of Qi.

 

Sensations or feeling of Qi in the body is like those, because they are Qi.

 

"Something" is "some" "thing" - Qi is not a "thing" at all. 

 

Qi is not a substance.

 

You can't buy it, bring it home, unwrap, and "feel" it. Not a toy, or any "thing".

 

Qi Gong is working with polarities in the body. There are MANY, and all are not even involving the same organs or processes in body.

 

Qi is just the movement in those polarities.

 

But you think it has to be a "substance" and you need to find this "special" substance in your body?

 

The whole idea is childishness. Fools like this idea. That's why there is so much of it to go around.

 

Already there are many substances you feel and some you don't. All showing Qi.

 

Those are no good?

 

They are all there is in there.

 

What do these polarities do?

 

They merely regulate and express all functions. Awareness, moving, anything.

 

No Qi - No movement. No movement - not living.

 

No polarity - no Qi.

 

I won't push this though, if you want to believe something else.

 

I will continue myself, however, as for the last almost 50 yrs.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[vonkrankenhaus]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

There is a lot of - in my mind unnecessary - depreciatory talk about thinking and reasoning in both the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang tzu, although the actual doctrines arrived at in those books nicely complement modern scientific insights. 

 

You are looking in the wrong places and critique the wrong aspects.

 

Those are not books that teach about Qi. They are mainly something else entirely.

 

Over 1500 academic recognized sources and thousands of hidden and protected sources, and many living Sifu exist, and you only choose these two books to decide what Qi is? 

 

One Zhou Dunyi diagram is more informative if you want to understand YinYang, Wu Xing, and Qi.

 

NeiJing Su Wen is better also, but then you are looking at medicine and need to know what looking at there, as it is slightly different - different words used for same thing, etc - but still - way more helpful than DaoDeJing for what you look for.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Rocky Lionmouth]

48 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

I have no problem with your posts.

 

But unhappily the discussion has taken an unproductive turn where I could not resist the compulsion to defend the legitimacy of rational analysis even where it concerns spiritual matters. I have read nothing to change my mind on that topic. Nevertheless I should have known that defending my rational stance is a hopeless cause on this forum.

 

 

Just when i thought i was out they pulled me back in XD

 

Well, neither have i with yours

Unproductive was my feel also, but hey, defense is not an easy position and there is a lot to say about how people respond to mildly or specific boundaries, i’ll give you that with no holding back.

 

I for one find your employment of rational analysis in these matters legit af. Those teachers, costudents and mentors of Daoism, spiritual matters and so forth i’ve trusted in have always taken a rationally analytical stance even when the subject goes ”out there”. It’s serious stuff and if you’re serious about it then flights of fancy are all right but shouldn’t be part of the collection of data and definetly not in the pile of support for exploring theory.

Daoists of ye good ol days were methodical and analytical even about their most religious and outlandish stuff, thats my humble impression.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

18 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

the yin qi, as detailed in the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality, is considered just to be undeveloped or immature yuan qi.

What's the difference between psychic yin qi and spiritual yuan qi energy? There is a story of the alchemist visiting the tantric who enjoyed longevity and health - but after the alchemist taught him the truth, then the tantric spit up all this silver liquid. His longevity and health were the silver mercury as yang qi - that had not be purified by the Spirit in the third eye. The left eye is the Sun as yang shen but it is also yin qi as wood, the liver. So at first the red dragon goes down into the black tiger to then rise up as the green dragon hidden in the white tiger - manifesting as yang qi - silver lunar energy - blue-white. So the blue light as the yang qi is the right eye as metal but with the yin shen as the Moon. So the eyes have to be rotated - this is the focus of chapter 6 and on in the book Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality. So if the Shen laser energy does not burn or ionize the yang qi (with substance) then the Yuan Qi can not be created.

 

Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality:

 

So in science we can state - mercury (blue-white as silver) in contrast to gold - the mercury does not rely on relativistic spin and so the gold color is not created. The relativistic spin is the 5th dimension as non-local phase.

 

So the blue light is absorbed - but when light goes into a 5D black hole - then green light is the first to be observed - as the Yuan Qi energy.  And so the Dragon is female - since it has to descend again down the front - from the white tiger going up  - the yang qi with substance is able to cause the Li to merge and form Heaven - and the yin as white tiger returns with the Green Dragon transformed, as Earth - yellow-red, Gold - since the blue light got absorbed.

 

So the eyes do a reversal - by rotating but also visualizing internally - the Sun and Moon lights externally are able to merge as the silver (blue) and gold (red).... the Yellow light as the internal Yuan Shen is the Yellow Sprouts - the true intention that has the yang within the yin and yin within the yang...

 

 

 

Well, i still haven’t read Taoist Yoga, i cant say i’m really turned on by what you describe. Not that it’s incorrect, i can’t say and won’t suggest it, but your post is VERY dense and i cannot make a meal from it, sorry.

[wandelaar]

8 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

I for one find your employment of rational analysis in these matters legit af. Those teachers, costudents and mentors of Daoism, spiritual matters and so forth i’ve trusted in have always taken a rationally analytical stance even when the subject goes ”out there”. It’s serious stuff and if you’re serious about it then flights of fancy are all right but shouldn’t be part of the collection of data and definetly not in the pile of support for exploring theory.

Daoists of ye good ol days were methodical and analytical even about their most religious and outlandish stuff, thats my humble impression.

 

If that is so - then so much the better!

[wandelaar]

29 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Would you say that about temperature or impact?

 

Those are experiences of Qi.

 

Sensations or feeling of Qi in the body is like those, because they are Qi.

 

"Something" is "some" "thing" - Qi is not a "thing" at all. 

 

Qi is not a substance.

 

You can't buy it, bring it home, unwrap, and "feel" it. Not a toy, or any "thing".

 

Qi Gong is working with polarities in the body. There are MANY, and all are not even involving the same organs or processes in body.

 

Qi is just the movement in those polarities.

 

But you think it has to be a "substance" and you need to find this "special" substance in your body?

 

The whole idea is childishness. Fools like this idea. That's why there is so much of it to go around.

 

Already there are many substances you feel and some you don't. All showing Qi.

 

Those are no good?

 

They are all there is in there.

 

What do these polarities do?

 

They merely regulate and express all functions. Awareness, moving, anything.

 

No Qi - No movement. No movement - not living.

 

No polarity - no Qi.

 

I won't push this though, if you want to believe something else.

 

I will continue myself, however, as for the last almost 50 yrs.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

You will have to give a clearer presentation of your theory as I don't plan to put in the same amount of effort in decoding your verses as I am investing in my study of the Tao Te Ching...

[Rocky Lionmouth]

6 hours ago, wandelaar said:

unnecessary - depreciatory talk about thinking and reasoning in both the Tao Te Ching and the Chuang tzu

 

Ah, yes. But then again the criticism in both of them is vaguely aimed at ”false” thinking and knowledge as i’ve come to reconcile it.

The message concerning the subject of thinking and knowledge is to beware a priori certainties, ad-hoc, tautologizing and trying to fit ones view of a vast, complex and differentiated universe to certain thoughts whose foundation is taken for granted, more or less at least.

Unlearning in Daoism means, among other things and obviously according to mho, to critically analyze how what one thinks is a granted truth might in fact be unfounded or simply not explored to a point of true grasping.

 

Compare it to Freges treatise on the foundationsof mathematics, it arose following a time where the numbers, the very axioms upon which mathematics as a system rested uppn, hadn’t been properly established in themselves. For a good stretch of time before he exclaimed ”Fuck no, this has got to be cleared up!!” mathematicians were making all sorts of stuff up, inferring solutions to equations based on how they presupposed they should reasonably be solved, but there was nothing to actually confirm it.

So, Gottlob did what had to be done, he figured out how to solve it and then publicized his work and since math has been doing better.

 

Now, math is ”easy” because it follows well defined rules, it’s pure synthetics or the ultimate meta-language we have access to, possibly.

Observing the world aint the same.

 

All the thinking and reasoning criticism in the two works are emphasised suggestions to stop limiting our thinking to what we know and how to confirm it in that specific order. Our true nature abhors it, it’s an atrocity to commit such acts agains even one of the ten thousand things, and at its extremes it is often identifiable as that thing humans do when completely idiotic things are stated and then become truth manifest because ”thats how things are, everyone knows it”. Cases in point: resistance towards Galileos heliocentric model, racial biology, isntitutional homophobia, ”poor people are lazy” etc.

 

Then there’s the anti-rationalism and the anti-intellectualism that often follows ”spiritual” matters, it’s quite comfortable for us all i admit, but it is not legitimate to say ”what you must do is to fully suspend your disbelief, the world is a donut you see.” just because thats what dilutes and makes new age fast food out of a nutritious meal coocked with intent and purpose.

 

You know?

 

[wandelaar]

8 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

So, Gottlob did what had to be done, he figured out how to solve it and then publicized his work and since math has been doing better.

 

Unhappily Frege's solution didn't last long as the smartass Bertrand Russell quickly discovered a paradox in Frege's foundations...

 

But I think I get your idea that (rational) thinking should be a tool at best, and that it shouldn't block our appreciation of the creativity and richness of our life. Any model (spiritual or otherwise) will only represent a fraction of the properties and relations of the actual things it represents. And I agree that one should always keep that caveat in mind.

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

Well, i still haven’t read Taoist Yoga, i cant say i’m really turned on by what you describe. Not that it’s incorrect, i can’t say and won’t suggest it, but your post is VERY dense and i cannot make a meal from it, sorry.

Yes the Western "commodity fetish" is based on being "turned on" or not (in a matter of speaking). And so the quite common reaction is not to the content but rather the FORM of the medium at hand. The only remedy for this is to take a "leap" into the non-Western content on its own terms (as scary as that might be) and see where it leads you. The book is a free read online - but when I first mentioned reading it on this forum - about 15 years ago - I was told - DON'T READ THAT BOOK IT'S TOO DANGEROUS!! haha.

[wandelaar]

6 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

The book is a free read online - but when I first mentioned reading it on this forum - about 15 years ago - I was told - DON'T READ THAT BOOK IT'S TOO DANGEROUS!! haha.

 

As you apparently read it I'm wondering whether they were right after all...

[voidisyinyang]

14 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Yes, when someone feels intimidated by another tradition then that one makes up a denigrating story. 

 

Google translate haven't developed the Nei Dan to english function yet, so I will have to wait a while to appreciate this. 

Actually the teaching is about the Double Reversal of the Elixir. I did a blog post with "cut and pastes" from the pdf for more details -

https://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-relationship-of-silver-mercury-to.html

Or you can just word search the pdf - search the word "silver."

https://terebess.hu/english/Cleary-Thomas-Understanding-Reality-by-Chang-Po-tuan.pdf

It's the difference between the "Inner cell" of the lower tantian and the outer cell.

 

[voidisyinyang]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

As you apparently read it I'm wondering whether they were right after all...

Yes - what I wrote above was "dense" (no mention of the actual content).

Now there's an ad hominem (no mention of the actual content).

These are all just excuses to not engage with the content being discussed.

I'll provide a link in case someone actually wants to read the content.

https://archive.org/stream/TaoistYogaAlchemyAndImmortalityLuKuanYCharlesLuk/Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality Lu K’uan Yü (Charles Luk)_djvu.txt

The author of the book says anyone should be able to achieve up to chapter 12 - studying the book on their own. The book has 16 chapters. I did have an experience from chapter 11. But BECAUSE people on this site insisted that I don't read the book - then I did suffer major setbacks in my "alchemy" training. haha.

But I did return back to the book. That is not to say that I practice the book - but at least I understand what the practice details are much better now - in case I ever do want to practice them.

[mrpasserby]

On 12/26/2018 at 6:51 AM, King Jade said:

Qi... practical route... someone with demonstrable potential here in the forum could theoretically light you up remotely no?

 

 

 

 

Thank you, I have great respect for the members of the doa bums forum and for those who can do exactly that. I have received cultivation and enhancement from certain masters because I did what was necessary and had prepared myself to receive it. 

Theoretical practice is also good and enhanced by focused action.

My opinion. 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by mrpasserby
completed a partially expressed thought

[vonkrankenhaus]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

You will have to give a clearer presentation of your theory

 

I don't have a theory.

 

If you study, you will see I am not providing a theory.

"Theory" is actually just a 5000 yr old description of fact.

 

YinYang & Qi - already exist. Electricity and Magnetism and other polarities all exist.

 

A battery  - available to see almost anywhere.

 

That's all I'm describing.

 

That's what Fu Hsi was describing. Wu Xing is elaboration. Lo Shu is further elaboration.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Mudfoot]

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

These are all just excuses to not engage with the content being discussed.

 

Isn't that the problem? 

Hasn't quite a few persons, including me, stated that it is really difficult to se what you are discussing? 

In your posts you combine undefined term with another undefined term, building chains that few seems to be able to follow. 

The question is, do you want to be understood? Because I would like to understand your chain of thought. 

Wang Mu have a list of code words, you might want to look at it and cut back to the basic words most here are familiar with and a clearer description on how you interpret the transformations happening. 

This would include a cut-back on the physics, since I doubt most spammers here are up to date. 

 

In other words, keep it simple so we can enjoy your posts. 

 

You do a Western - nonwestern distinction in your posts, but sometimes I feel that is just an excuse for not writing in an accessible manner. 

 

You do post here to be read and understood? 

 

Or....? 

[voidisyinyang]

8 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Isn't that the problem? 

Hasn't quite a few persons, including me, stated that it is really difficult to se what you are discussing? 

In your posts you combine undefined term with another undefined term, building chains that few seems to be able to follow. 

The question is, do you want to be understood? Because I would like to understand your chain of thought. 

Wang Mu have a list of code words, you might want to look at it and cut back to the basic words most here are familiar with and a clearer description on how you interpret the transformations happening. 

This would include a cut-back on the physics, since I doubt most spammers here are up to date. 

 

In other words, keep it simple so we can enjoy your posts. 

 

You do a Western - nonwestern distinction in your posts, but sometimes I feel that is just an excuse for not writing in an accessible manner. 

 

You do post here to be read and understood? 

 

Or....? 

 

Can you sing an octave? You like music right? Actually Western music is based on a lie!! mass mind control. Daoism is very simple but it's buried under a lot of lies. Same in India - the "three gunas" is the oldest philosophy of India! But most of Indian philosophy is based on Brahmin symmetric logic.

 

So let's go to Pregadio - that will prove my point. Pregadio is recognized as an academic expert on Daoist meditation as alchemy.

 

OK every human culture in the world uses the Octave, the Perfect Fifth and the Perfect Fourth music intervals as 1:2:3 (infinity). That is also Daoism! Pretty  amazingly simple isn't it?!!

Why do Westerners not understand?

Because we've been lied to for the past 2500 years and these lies are pounded into us every time we hear Western music!! Amazingly effective mass mind control isn't it?!

http://www.academia.edu/6950136/The_Alchemical_Body_in_Daoism

OK we can turn to Pregadio to verify my claim.

Luckily he posts his research on that channel.

Right - so you just gotta "log in" via google.

Then click on Pregadio's name to see all his papers.

I think what I want is "Time in Chinese Alchemy" if I remember correctly.

https://www.academia.edu/11992313/Time_in_Chinese_Alchemy

So now we download the pdf.

So now consider the we LISTEN to music!

In the West music is erroneously defined as a spatial external measurement! oops!

No - really - we LISTEN to music right?

No instrument needed!

Very simple!

Remember I asked you - can you sing an octave?

Just sing a note - any note - then sing the SAME note - and double the frequency.

Now - we think of that in the West has "halving" the time at double the frequency.

We even "visualize" the frequency as twice as "high" in pitch - like geometry.

But if we really listen - we realize there are inherent harmonics to sound.

The 2 as octave frequency also resonates as a 3 - the Perfect Fifth.

But now something interesting happens!

We now have 3/2 and 2/3 at the same time!!

Now let's go back to Pregadio - see what that download has to offer.

 

OK since I can't "cut and paste" a pdf on this site - and assuming that the Westernized mass mind control readers of  this site will practice willful ignorance by not reading the pdf - I'll transcribe a quote for people - so it's right in front of their faces (unless of course they practice self-censorship).

 

Quote

The twelve-stage sequence also establishes correspondences with other duodenary series: ...the bells and pitch-pipes.

 

And there you have it folks! No need to "believe me" - this IS daoist meditation! It's music theory! The small universe alchemy meditation is also music theory.

 

 

[Mudfoot]

17 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

Westernized mass mind control readers of  this site will practice willful ignorance by not reading the pdf - I'll transcribe a quote for people - so it's right in front of their faces (unless of course they practice self-censorship).

 

 

So if I do not understand you I practice self-censorship? 

 

Isn't that a bit aggressive? 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

@wandelaar i know, Russell was a true OG and he kept it realer. 

But yes, brilliantly stated.

 

@voidisyinyang mmm, i cant tell if your comment was made in an unintended position of superiority or if you were just trying to be smug commenting about my western fear of nonwestern modality. My calling your post dense was a reference to how packed with information and hard to even take in for me was. Your reply made me cringe initially because you obviously missed that i was saying ”this is above my capacity at the moment” and 

I do take issue with the use of ”Western” and especially the way you describe it. Taoist Yoga has not interested me mostly because its most vocal proponents are wont to descend into logorreah of ”quantum” this and that, black holes, conspiracies of the lizard peoples influence on the Bilderberg, chemtrails and how resonant thingamajigs of the ”Obscure Chinese Term in confirmationally biased translation” and then some. It’s hard to stomach because both FORM and content is impenetrable and any mention of this is a severe ruffling of feathers and offense is taken quickly.

 

Dont you commodity fetish me Void, you know better, we’ve discussed this previously, go non-western (no trace of content) at someone who’ll listen if you cant even distinguish ”sorry, i dont understand” from some vague ad hominem. If i wanted to flame you i’d be clear and direct, harbor me no ill will for your own suspicions. End of story.

[Mudfoot]

For the record: I am still waiting for the clear cut version of the right hand up left hand down theory. 

 

You might find that another SFQ practitioner described the energetics of that one years ago, on this forum. 😁