DESTINY?

[Fa Xin]

4 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

My interest in this topic comes from a different angle. Presently my thoughts lean toward we can't avoid manifesting that which is unconscious - good, bad, or indifferent. 

 

So do we accept this ? Or we don’t have a choice either way ?

[ilumairen]

2 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

So do we accept this ? Or we don’t have a choice either way ?

 

We understand this, and start seeing where the stiches of the sweater of our ego/ ideas of self and the world around us were sewn. 

[Fa Xin]

1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

 

We understand this, and start seeing where the stiches of the sweater of our ego/ ideas of self and the world around us were sewn. 

 

Very nice 😊

[Fa Xin]

5 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

We understand this, and start seeing where the stiches of the sweater of our ego/ ideas of self and the world around us were sewn. 

 

Once you see the stitches, then what? Do you pull and unravel? Or wear the sweater ?

Edited December 29, 2018 by Fa Xin

[dawei]

3 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Once you see the stitches, then what? Do you pull and unravel? Or wear the sweater ?

 

You see stitches; you see pull and unravel; you see wearing the sweater.  

[Fa Xin]

56 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

You see stitches; you see pull and unravel; you see wearing the sweater.  

 

Thanks, yes.  I agree.

 

I see the stitches, not because I try to see them, they just appear.  I don't worry about pulling, unraveling or wearing... and don't even worry about seeing the stitches.  I leave it all up to the sweater Gods, as I don't know much about embroidery to begin with...

[ilumairen]

On 12/29/2018 at 4:59 PM, Fa Xin said:

 

Once you see the stitches, then what? Do you pull and unravel? Or wear the sweater ?

 

Pull and unravel seems to imply willful action. And the awareness itself seems to come from a place of nakedness. 

[ilumairen]

On 12/29/2018 at 8:16 PM, dawei said:

 

You see stitches; you see pull and unravel; you see wearing the sweater.  

 

And sometimes new sweaters in spiritual colors are woven.

[ilumairen]

On 12/29/2018 at 9:15 PM, Fa Xin said:

 

Thanks, yes.  I agree.

 

I see the stitches, not because I try to see them, they just appear.  I don't worry about pulling, unraveling or wearing... and don't even worry about seeing the stitches.  I leave it all up to the sweater Gods, as I don't know much about embroidery to begin with...

 

Most of us are exceptional weavers...

 

And if you are not, then you're an exception.

[Desmonddf]

There are two possibilities.

 

One, the universe is regulated by inexcapable natural laws. 

 

Two, there is space for raw chaos to manifest. 

 

In the first, our own toughts and ideas are the result of such laws. Our brains, and even our egos, are what they are because of these laws. There is no "choice". Anything you choose has been chosen as so because you are you -and "you" yourself is a product of this universe and its laws. 

 

You think you're choosing, that it is you "will" that determines things. But your "will" itself is a product of the universal laws, so you're choosing as much as a hidrogen atom chooses to bond with oxigen to form water. Is all mathematics.

 

Now, if the second is true, then chaos may sept in the universe, and your "will" itself can be changed by this chaos as well.

 

On another words, there is no mythical "will" that will interfere with your destiny.

 

"Because you are you, then you'll choose as you would choose".

 

I love this phrase, as much as people rarely understand it. 

 

Now, about gods creating a destiny for you... that is as much true as society creating your destiny, or your parents. All of that only is what it is because it is destiny (a.k.a. the mathematical logic) that it would be as so. May you rebel against it or follow it passively, that is destiny as well. The mere consequence os things being what they are in their origin.

[wandelaar]

@ Desmonddf

 

I agree with your point of view, logically thinking it trough to the very end leaves no room for free will. It has to be an illusion springing from the perception of oneself as standing in the world and acting upon it. What one doesn't realise is that the world includes oneself, and that the Laws of Nature or Tao also determine how one's own psyche functions and thus what one chooses. And even when there would be some room for true chaos (quantum mechanical or otherwise) than that would still leave no room for a free will because chaotic events (that is: events unrelated to anything else) are also unrelated to one's own character (they would not be choices made by you).

 

But I have been here long enough to know that this chain of arguments will not impress those who want to preserve their faith in free will, they would rather be illogical than accept the non-existence of free will. And even this matter of fact is also a result of the non-existence of free will.

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by wandelaar

[Aspen]

Saying free will categorically does not exist seems like a fallacy?

 

A regular dream state is an example of awareness that lacks free will. Awareness is present, but intent is not, and interaction with the environment is clearly driven from the outside. 

 

In a waking state intent follows the awareness, and is either driven consciously (will shapes the intent) or externally (intent chases or tries to avoid objects of perception). 

 

Conceptualized thought stream does not stem from the will. It's easy to prove - just make we just make an arm go up or down. We have control of the process. Now, if we intend to cease the conceptual thinking for a minute or two, we might not succeed.The conclusion is that the thinking mind is not quite in our control, despite the identification we might hold with "our own thoughts".

 

There is also very practical problem with that approach -- the conceptual mind is very limited in what it knows how to do. Most of day to day operations go beyond words -- we don't use the conceptual mind to remember,  to write, to visualize, to drive, to tie shoelaces, or to draw, or move around, or play musical instruments. In fact, in most cases when we go somewhere, it is inclined to go the other way, dragging the awareness away with it.

 

So,  we could say that free will is present when intent and awareness are unified, and there is no excessive lust of result.

 

Observing that no free will exists has merit, because this is not something that people usually have a grasp of, or free will it is identified with following the conceptual mind (that one likes categorizing and compartmentalizing, so the person gets obsessed with being somehow distinct from others and feeling personally achieved and distinguished).

 

Even without recruiting karmic principles, it's enough to keep guys running in circles for a good while. 

 

And of we reject free will, then there is of course, no need to talk about destiny, since it's now all destiny, and there are no actual decisions, and we are all just lumbering automatons.

 

Just my mishmash of some Crowley and Buddhist stuff, nothing too new or scientific.

[wandelaar]

38 minutes ago, Aspen said:

And of we reject free will, then there is of course, no need to talk about destiny, since it's now all destiny, and there are no actual decisions, and we are all just lumbering automatons.

 

The conclusion doesn't follow. Yes we are automatons, but no it is not true that we don't make decisions. Obviously we continuously make choices. But our making of choices is part of the world process just like everything else, so there is no reason to suppose that what happens when we make choices somehow escapes from being determined by the Laws of Nature or Tao. That is - yes we have a will of our own, but no that will is not free in the sense of operating beyond the reach of the Laws of Nature or Tao. 

 

Quote

Just my mishmash of some Crowley and Buddhist stuff, nothing too new or scientific.

 

The Problem of Free Will is as old as philosophy itself, so nothing new is to be expected from the discussion between some bums on an obscure internet forum...

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by wandelaar

[manitou]

2 hours ago, Aspen said:

 

So,  we could say that free will is present when intent and awareness are unified, and there is no excessive lust of result.

 

Observing that no free will exists has merit, because this is not something that people usually have a grasp of, or free will it is identified with following the conceptual mind (that one likes categorizing and compartmentalizing, so the person gets obsessed with being somehow distinct from others and feeling personally achieved and distinguished).

 

 

 

I like that; free will is present when intent and awareness are unified.  This co-exists nicely with the next paragraph 'so the person gets obsessed with being somehow distinct from others and feeling personally achieved and distinguished'.  If a person is obsessed with being distinct from others, they are not yet an enlightened being, as they don't understand that the ego needs diminishing.  When the ego is diminished, that's when awareness can expand to align with intent.

 

Very nice IMO, Aspen.

[Desmonddf]

Well, for those who "believe" in free will, I would like to ask : What is free will ? Where does it comes from ? Can it be manipulated ? How is one (ego) related to it ? 

 

And, finaly: How can you recognize when you're using your "free will" or acting purely out of reflex ?

[manitou]

24 minutes ago, Desmonddf said:

Well, for those who "believe" in free will, I would like to ask : What is free will ? Where does it comes from ? Can it be manipulated ? How is one (ego) related to it ? 

 

And, finaly: How can you recognize when you're using your "free will" or acting purely out of reflex ?

 

I think something like free will can be exercised when previous conditioning and the outsized ego has been removed.  In the purest sense.  There may not be a human alive who can exercise 100% free will, but the more unencumbered we are, the more behavioral options are open to us.  Reflex can go both ways.  Reflex can be used as a result of conditioning, or it can be used instinctively to protect ourselves from, say, a thrown rock at us.   As to "believing", I think that's for kids.  It starts with Santa.

Edited January 1, 2019 by manitou

[Desmonddf]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

I think something like free will can be exercised when previous conditioning and the outsized ego has been removed.  In the purest sense.  There may not be a human alive who can exercise 100% free will, but the more unencumbered we are, the more behavioral options are open to us.  Reflex can go both ways.  Reflex can be used as a result of conditioning, or it can be used instinctively to protect ourselves from, say, a thrown rock at us.   As to "believing", I think that's for kids.  It starts with Santa.

 

So, you're treating free will as a spiritual influence over the physical plane. One's "spirit" doing things, so to say ?

[manitou]

 

@desmonddf - If you consider the mass of an atom, it is approximately 99.99% space.  The actual matter in that atom is infinitesimal - and I'm guessing that the better our instruments get, the more science will realize that it's all Thought anyway.  That being the case, we are also 99.99% space.  The mystics have known for thousands of years that the spiritual plane and the physical plane are one and the same.  And at some point, if we're lucky and earnest in this lifetime, we get to discover who we really Are.  Your question, as I see it, is apples and oranges.  Your brain is obviously a very good one.  Welcome to the Bums.

[rideforever]

Is there free will ?   .... for whom ?
People are different many act like robots, others act like individuals.
Some people actively try to use free will, others are demoralized and live in their heads.
You have 80 years or so to live.
Will you live grow in that time, grow in your faculties, grow in your courage, or will you degenerate and die whilst still alive ?

[rideforever]

Development of Free Will

 

Doing things that are difficult and that you resent is one way to develop free will.   For instance cleaning down the kitchen.   Think about doing it .... can't be bothered right ?   But do it anyway, that is free will.   Your ability to choose to do things that are difficult, that are not drifting going with the habitual flow.   That is free will.

 

It is very difficult to develop.   Probably you will have forgotten already my suggestion from the first paragraph.

 

Begin with small things, like cleaning the toilet.   Or making your bed perfectly every day.   Start with many small tasks, that you choose consciously and then you do.   Each one must be at least a little difficult.   Not things you would have done anyway.

 

If you pump up the music and sing your way through the task that doesn't work, it's like not being there.   It just doesn't work.

 

To develop free will one must pay the price of being present aware and feeling the difficulty of it, it is only that that will tear open free will.  The feeling of the resistance and being present through it.

 

Start small, do regularly, pay the price.   Free will is rare, and the price is high.   Start small, chopping carrots carefully, being present. 

 

Another variation is when people make you angry, don't be angry.   Refuse, breathe be calm.   Choose something that is difficult.

 

This creates free will, in a sea of people who run on rails.

[wandelaar]

@ rideforever

 

You are mistaken. What you are talking about is will power. But whether or not our will can be free in the philosophical sense of being beyond the reach of the Laws of Nature or Tao is a completely different question. Focussing on will power can easily lead to a sense of one's own superiority, and indeed most of your posts have a distinct smell of spiritual arrogance in the way that you are continually bashing common folks.

[manitou]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

@ rideforever

 

You are mistaken. What you are talking about is will power. But whether or not our will can be free in the philosophical sense of being beyond the reach of the Laws of Nature or Tao is a completely different question. Focussing on will power can easily lead to a sense of one's own superiority, and indeed most of your posts have a distinct smell of spiritual arrogance in the way that you are continually bashing common folks.

 

Nicely said, wandelaar.  Better to totally focus on the project at hand, even if it is cleaning the toilet.  To find a way to experience the joy of doing it; to realize what a privilege it is to be in body and have the ability for the sensory enjoyment of it.  And to stop judging what's in front of it as good or bad, or enjoyable and not enjoyable.

[ilumairen]

There are two common ways the phrase free will is used:

 

(from Merriam Webster)

 

1: voluntary choice or decision // I do this of my own free will

 

2: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention 

 

And the first is what rideforever seems to be discussing, and the second what wandalaar is discussing. 

 

Rideforever seems to be pointing to choice within the framework (please do correct me if I'm wrong). And in this, he isn't mistaken. 

 

Wandalaar is arguing the second definition as nothing can be outside the framework, and occur without prior causes. (also feel free to correct me in this).

 

And what manitou is pointing to, imo, is connecting with inner divinity, and becoming what's referred to as divine intervention - thereby nullifying the debate altogether. (corrections accepted)

 

Certainly apples and oranges. 

[ilumairen]

4 hours ago, rideforever said:

Development of Free Will

 

Doing things that are difficult and that you resent is one way to develop free will.   For instance cleaning down the kitchen.   Think about doing it .... can't be bothered right ?   But do it anyway, that is free will.   Your ability to choose to do things that are difficult, that are not drifting going with the habitual flow.   That is free will.

 

It is very difficult to develop.   Probably you will have forgotten already my suggestion from the first paragraph.

 

Begin with small things, like cleaning the toilet.   Or making your bed perfectly every day.   Start with many small tasks, that you choose consciously and then you do.   Each one must be at least a little difficult.   Not things you would have done anyway.

 

If you pump up the music and sing your way through the task that doesn't work, it's like not being there.   It just doesn't work.

 

To develop free will one must pay the price of being present aware and feeling the difficulty of it, it is only that that will tear open free will.  The feeling of the resistance and being present through it.

 

Start small, do regularly, pay the price.   Free will is rare, and the price is high.   Start small, chopping carrots carefully, being present. 

 

Another variation is when people make you angry, don't be angry.   Refuse, breathe be calm.   Choose something that is difficult.

 

This creates free will, in a sea of people who run on rails.

 

Why the focus on difficulty?

[wandelaar]

@ ilumairen

 

Sure - it is very important to distinguish the different senses in which the expression free will is used. I have only one thing to add to your description:

 

There is a possibility that some events (such as the exact moment of disintegration of a radioactive nucleus) are random in the sense of not being caused by anything else. Some philosophers and scientists think that this opens up the possibility of a certain amount of free will existing within the context of Natural Laws. But I don't think this works, because random events don't correlate with anybodies character and thus cannot be considered as somehow constituting the choices of somebody. Still another idea is that our consciousness could somehow influence the random events. But suppose this were possible, than we would simple have an extra process involved in the workings of our psyche. So that the question about the freedom of the will should be asked again for this new situation, and then the old philosophical problems simply reappear.