freeform Posted January 5, 2019 I specifically said that TCM is not for cultivation - it’s for health and healing. You must’ve missed that. Energy work is the ‘tantric’ path to enlightenment... meaning you make specific internal changes (by working with your energetic makeup) that create the fertile ground for enlightenment to happen. Tell me about all these saints you know of that got enlightened with no effort. I know of none. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldDog Posted January 5, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, rideforever said: ... it seems to me it is just faster to get enlightened which lifts you out of the "body" and its functions permanently. I've never really thought about enlightenment that way. Seems more aligned with Buddhist thought than Daoist ... i.e. transcendence of human condition. Every once in a while you do see reference to direct experience seemingly without preparation. But for the most part Daoist view seems more about unification than transcendence. So, the work in meditation, qigong and other esoteric practices, including an understanding of TCM, is all part of the general process of preparing the body, mind and spirit for the experience of knowing Dao. Enlightenment? I'm sure the experience would be enlightening but in the sense of being more unified with existence than transcendence. Just one view. Edited January 5, 2019 by OldDog Grammar Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desmonddf Posted January 8, 2019 TCM doesn't seek or produces enlightment. We are capable of affecting the whole structure of the being through TCM, but those are tools used for a means. True enlightment comes from somewere TCM cannot reach - the inner self. Of course, we can produce "pseudo-enlightment". Some herbs, enteogens and other substances, while also mixed with the right kinds of therapy and the such, can produce the "enlightment experience" in which one experiences and tastes enlightment. It is, however, usually forgotten in its entirety right after. With much practice and repetition it is then possible to change someone's Ego just enough so the person becomes capable of experiencing advanced states of being, with some of them being close to enlightment. It isn't, however, possible to experience enlightment without experiencing the dissolution of the Ego. And as much as this dissolution can be remembered once the Ego is put in its place as a tool (and accepts and even seeks for it), it isn't possible to recreate the feeling on one's mind or think about it. You'll just remember that you once "ceased to be you". So, to sumarize: TCM can produce "pseudo-enlightment" and this then can produce in the person's Ego the needed changes in order for them to seek and find the doors to enlightment. But that's all. We cannot push the person beyond the door, only open it to them. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted January 9, 2019 16 hours ago, Desmonddf said: So, to sumarize: TCM can produce "pseudo-enlightment" and this then can produce in the person's Ego the needed changes in order for them to seek and find the doors to enlightment. But that's all. There’s also an interesting perspective that I’ve heard from high level Daoist healers. That medicine is a form of self cultivation. That by treating a person and adjusting the path of their Ming, the healer creates internal transformation in herself. I don’t understand the mechanisms around this, but it’s what I’ve been told. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Desmonddf Posted January 9, 2019 Just now, freeform said: There’s also an interesting perspective that I’ve heard from high level Daoist healers. That medicine is a form of self cultivation. That by treating a person and adjusting the path of their Ming, the healer creates internal transformation in herself. I don’t understand the mechanisms around this, but it’s what I’ve been told. All actions can lead to the Dao. A butcher butchering, a farmer farming, an emperor ruling... so why not a healer healing? Besides that, by having contact with some concepts and mechanisms to understand and change the body, mind and soul, one's Ego is completely transformed in the process. One's understandment of themselves increase as they understand others. That's one of the reasons why ortodox western medicine is stuck and can't progress beyond its current level of physically treating the body - the western doctors cannot deal with the needed knowledge and their egos are already pushed to the brim with just what they know. They seek refuge from this knowledge, and pride comes forth as a means of protecting their sense of "who I am". Healing is an inherently spiritual practice. To achieve high levels of healing, the healer must either cure or outright strip themselves from their own diseases and limitations. For instance, lets take one thing that most western doctors feel enraged by: Patients that do not follow the correct dietary prescriptions. I've seen my brother (who is one) complaining about this time and time again. "I have given her the dietary prescription, she didn't follow it, now, look, there she is, heart attack!". He will never be able to heal these kind of patients, because he is unable to let go of his own mental restrains in order to affect the patient where the root of the problem is: Their minds and behaviour. A good, obedient and well-behaved patient isn't something a doctor must expect. One's physical health being bad, their mental health will probably be bad as well. The healer must heal the person as a whole, and for that to happen, they need to go beyond the mind - THEIR own mind. So, yes, healing is a form of self cultivation. The carrot are things like money, fame, and, why not, simply the satisfaction of seeing a good person healed and well, free of pain and disease. The stick are things like people dying, their relatives crying and sometimes outright losing everything they had because you where unable to help them My own achievements in this field have come in the form of a way of thinking: I do not see any kind of bad behaviour and criminal action as something related to the essence of a person. To they being "bad" themselves. I see that as a disease which can be treated, be it a rapist or simply a shoplifter. Their very mental core can be changed as long as I achieve higher levels of being - the concept of "who they are". So why should I blame them? They just have faulty machines (Egos). All I need to do is to fix it, and no more problems shall arise. Of course, the practice is WAY harder than the ideals. Looking at the root of the problems is a fucking hard exercise of self-perception and shadow work. Especially since this root tend to be on the very basic constituions of human beings, such as desires, immaturity, attachments and so on. Dealing with this is doable. But still VERY difficult, since your own psyche will be affected by it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted January 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, Desmonddf said: I do not see any kind of bad behaviour and criminal action as something related to the essence of a person. To they being "bad" themselves. I see that as a disease which can be treated 8 minutes ago, Desmonddf said: The healer must heal the person as a whole, and for that to happen, they need to go beyond the mind - THEIR own mind. Completely agree. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zen Pig Posted January 9, 2019 On 12/16/2018 at 2:31 AM, yuuichi said: What exactly are these channels then? What are they made of? Good question, but this is a learned western reductionist materialist view point. that we can take the "science hammer", and smash everything down to its component parts, and see how it all works. not good, not bad, but just a belief. Like asking "what is love made of" or "what is consciousness, made of, or what is the experience of the color red made of"? Most of reality, form what I have seen so far, cannot be broken to its component material parts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
