learning Chinese

[Ant]

I started self-studying Chinese in earnest around 6 months ago, mainly as a window into further engagement with TCM, Qigong etc. I'm currently living in Taiwan, so I've been focusing on traditional characters. I'd love to find some articles on these kinds of topics aimed more at lower level Chinese learners, has anyone run across such material? I've only covered around 700-800 characters so far, but with Lingq.com I'm able to tackle intermediate content. Thanks : ) 

[henro]

I've been self-studying Chinese language for a decade  

 

I've used Rosetta Stone, Pimsleur, and for TCM concepts Nigel Wisemans books - Chinese Medical Characters. 

 

You might also look at Duo Lingo, but its simplified characters only. 

 

[wandelaar]

Interesting topic! Are there also free You Tube lessons on ancient Chinese characters (as used in the Tao Te Ching)?

[Ant]

I've put together my own study program mainly using methods I've learnt from Steve Kaufmann and Ollie Read, two of the online "polygot" guys who I think have a lot of great ideas. So I'm reading and listening to articles and stories using LingQ, and I've worked my way through Ollie Reads "Conversations" series, which has improved my listening hugely, just by listening to each episode on my mp3 player hundreds and hundreds of times as I go about my day. I'm working my way through traditional characters using Anki, and also bought John Defrancis "Beginning Chinese Reader". I'm largely avoiding textbooks and explicit grammar study.  Henro that Nigel Wiseman series looks great, I'm gonna look at those thanks. Pimsleur 1 and 2 was a nice intro for me, now I'm using Glossika for daily speaking practice, which I find really great for getting my mouth used to the language. 

wandelaar, from my understanding, the characters themselves would be the traditional ones still used in HK and Taiwan, but the skill of reading Classical Chinese is a harder one to acquire, not just because of the characters but understanding the context and way things are written. I haven't attempted that yet but I hope to one day : ) 

[Aetherous]

20 hours ago, Ant said:

the skill of reading Classical Chinese

 

This is primarily what I've been slowly working on in an undisciplined way for the past few years.

I'm not learning Chinese in the normal way, although I do plan on joining some beginning modern Chinese classes and trying to learn to speak it. But my primary interest is in accurate translation of Classical medical texts. (note that sometimes there are good Classical-Modern Chinese dictionaries, where it would help to be able to read modern Chinese...if you want to learn from what the academics have researched, that will be in modern Chinese...so even in translating purely Classical Chinese, it is immensely helpful to know modern Chinese).

Pulleyblank and Barnes have good grammar books for Classical Chinese. Very important, but to be honest, it's really challenging for me to be dedicated enough to teach myself from these books. They are quite dense to read sometimes, and aren't immediately understandable due to complex linguist terminology. They really don't dumb down the English grammar for you. But from what I know, sinologists consider these to be good, and essential. Can't translate accurately without knowing the rules.

I use Wenlin a lot, although its dictionary is modern Chinese...I find it super useful for working on the computer, copying and pasting characters to and from different places, and to get a rough and quick idea of the meaning of characters by just hovering the mouse over them.
 

I also use the Pleco app, and have Kroll's student dictionary on there (the best Classical Chinese-English dictionary we have).

Besides a dictionary, and a solid grasp of Classical grammar...like you said, understanding context and the way things were written at that time is important. They used funny turns of phrase in the Classical times, like the Han dynasty and prior.

A more complex subject has to do with the different dialects, and how that changes how things are translated.

There are also differing schools of thought in regard to how translation is done. Some people like an attempt at a word for word translation, for accuracy purposes.

 

Others realize that Chinese characters don't always translate word for word, and sometimes even if they do, doing that style makes the English clunkier than necessary...so this other school of thought feels free to rearrange the sentence with its entire meaning intact, so that it flows better. But, this is important - that can only be done after the translator gets the most accurate as possible word for word translation. It's like taking an additional step, rather than being sloppy (like the first group of translators would assume about it).

Anyway, me responding here is really like the blind leading the blind...but it is something I work on and maybe these things I do will be useful to others.

[wandelaar]

22 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Pulleyblank and Barnes have good grammar books for Classical Chinese. Very important, but to be honest, it's really challenging for me to be dedicated enough to teach myself from these books. They are quite dense to read sometimes, and aren't immediately understandable due to complex linguist terminology. They really don't dumb down the English grammar for you. But from what I know, sinologists consider these to be good, and essential. Can't translate accurately without knowing the rules.

 

Do you have the exact title(s) of the book(s) by Pulleyblank and Barnes?

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by wandelaar

[Aetherous]

Just now, wandelaar said:

 

Do you have the exact title of the book(s) by Pulleyblank and Barnes?

 

Pulleyblank "Outline of Classical Chinese Grammar" (I've seen a PDF of this on google)
Barnes "Du's Handbook of Classical Chinese Grammar" and "Chinese Through Poetry"

Du's handbook is probably the easiest to begin with. Chinese through Poetry is the most beautiful to use, but is a little bit of an undertaking. Pulleyblank is a little bit more challenging to get into.

[Ant]

Sounds like a true labor of love, I wish you well with it. What we refer to as "Chinese" can mean so many things can't it, it's fascinating. On the modern end of the spectrum, David Moser's book "A billion voices" looks like a great read, about the government's ongoing attempt to unite China under a common spoken language. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29501533-a-billion-voices

 

It's interesting to note that the characters were nearly done away with entirely under the CCP's reforms , in favor of a phonetic script. Can you imagine reading Chinese entirely in pinyin? I can't wrap my head around how that would work..

 

 

[Aetherous]

2 hours ago, Ant said:

Can you imagine reading Chinese entirely in pinyin?

 

https://www.quora.com/Will-Pinyin-Chinese-written-using-the-Latin-alphabet-ever-replace-the-traditional-Chinese-characters

[wandelaar]

8 hours ago, Ant said:

Can you imagine reading Chinese entirely in pinyin? I can't wrap my head around how that would work..

 

Maybe. See for something similar:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language#Writing_system

 

But of course it will come at a (heavy) price if they do...