Did the U.S. really go to the moon in 1969?

[thelerner]

2 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

Having blind faith in what authority figures tell us is just as easy...perhaps even more so.

 

Did you know that the third leading cause of death in the US is modern medicine?

There is always room for questioning. The truly scientific mind doesn't sweep anomalies under the rug, out of fear...it tries to explore them.

To address the topic of thread: Room 237 was a fun documentary. I'm a big Kubrick fan. I don't know whether the first moon landing was faked or not. If I cared about this subject a bit more, I'd be looking into wandelaar's book recommendation.

You don't need blind faith, you can study.  Not pop youtubes that exist to confirm bias's but books by experts, people who've spent there lives studying this.  Some people are authorities because they've spent a life time of study.  Versus people who haven't.  Yes, its good to believe, in my opinion, people who've spent decades studying a subject.  Better still several people, get a wide view from intelligent experts.  With the understanding that science evolves as it goes along, paradigms change, models get better.

 

Modern medicine, has problems, but its also saves countless lives.  You disregard it at your own risk.  Its also important to know its weaknesses and dangers.  Where modern medicine exists life spans are longer.  It's not a panacea but its evolving.  Course so are some of its problems, ie expense. 

 

What some consider moon landings 'anomalies' have been explained by experts.  You don't have to believe experts in the field or people who were there, who accomplished it, but don't pretend that's open minded, its having a tight agenda that disbelieves modern science and history.   

Edited December 17, 2018 by thelerner

[Aetherous]

3 minutes ago, thelerner said:

You don't need blind faith, you can study.  Not pop youtubes that exist to confirm bias's but books by experts, people who've spent there lives studying this.  Some people are authorities because they've spent a life time of study.  Versus people who haven't.

 

Some conspiracy theorists are pretty dedicated, and I'd say spend their lives studying their topic of interest...much more so than the average person who has simply read of the work of experts...and unlike the accusation that they all just fall for confirmation bias.

 

Anyway, I mostly agree with you here, and am really just playing the devil's advocate. I have a distaste for strongly worded appeals to authority.

 

3 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Modern medicine, has problems, but its also saves countless lives.  You disregard it at your own risk.

 

Well, I don't disregard it. Knowing that it's the third leading cause of death is part of being informed.

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

 

Modern medicine, .... saves countless lives.

People tend to believe it, and the establishment brainwashes ppl into believing it, but this does not sound right at all. Unless by countless, the establishment means 'an unknown number if at all'.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Taoist Texts

[futuredaze]

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I disagree. The mindset that says the Moon landing was faked is exactly the mindset that believes in a flat Earth. As regards the Moon landing, we're not talking about ancient history. There are literally hundreds of millions if not more than a billion people alive today who were alive when it happened. For it to have been faked without a single person confessing the charade is absurd.

Let's see.  Different cultures from all around the world had come to the conclusion the Earth is round for the last 1000-2000 years, or even older in some cases.  Now, with technology it can be observed directly, but before then people still came to that conclusion through rational discoveries.

 

The moon thing is QUESTIONING something that was pushed by a GOVERNMENT AGENCY from a country whose official agencies are known for lying all the time.

 

Questioning the Earth as round is questioning SCIENCE and OBSERVATION; questioning the moon landing narrative is questioning the U.S. government and NASA more than it is questioning science.  I am more agnostic than straight up saying it didn't happen and it is impossible.  I don't think some people here understand that, even though I tried to make that clear.

Edited December 17, 2018 by futuredaze

[futuredaze]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

I see people who disbelieve in the 6 moon landings pretty much the same way you see flat earthers..ie pretty stupid.  Pretty much the exact thing, ignoring an overwhelming body of evidence and constructing an impossibly complex conspiracy theory.  

 

Questioning is fine, it's great, but if you have a strong and paranoid agenda, you'll be blind to answers.  You can study the plans and building of the 6 moon landings in incredible detail.   The 10,000's of thousand of people involved are still alive.  One can trace the beginnings and steps.  You can see the evidence, talk to the people.    Learn the problems they faced and how they overcame them.

 

You can also see the fruits of there progress by where we are now, ie the space station, multiple countries sending probes and vehicles to different planets and asteroids. 

 

The truth is clear and easy if you have an open mind, you can study how and why it happened, first hand.  You can learn from people who've been in space and designed crafts.   I'm in Chicago, where they have the Adler planetarium, you can go there and see the history of human learning, how it evolved, problems given and solved.

 

You don't trust the government so.. one of mankinds greatest achievements is null and void to you.  Oh well... your loss cause learning about space, its history, the engineers and researchers who solved and continue to solve real hard problems is fascinating.  The now of it, the cutting edge science thats being done.  It's inspiring.  Hopeful even. 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough.  I see people who lump "flat Earthers" with "moon narrative skeptics" to be stupid because they demonstrate a poor ability to distinguish people who clearly believe in different categories of things.

 

As I stated above, questioning the Earth as a sphere is questioning 2000+ years of cross-cultural discoveries and more recent observations.  Questioning the moon story is pretty much just questioning the narrative of the government, not science. 

 

Now, I don't give a fuck if you disagree with me or think I am wrong.  I will enjoy it if you provide any evidence to either support or disprove my claim, since it adds to the conversation.  I've admitted I was wrong before and am open to the fact that I may be for most things.  But if you call me stupid, I will go a step further- I will prove you to be stupid and/or wrong.  I know I am not a genius, but I also am aware that I am some sort of above-average intellect.  but yeah, your comparison is retarded.

 

Finally, you make a second mistake at the end.  Because I express a skeptical approach and agnostic outlook of the official moon narrative, you think I disregard all astronomical progress & discoveries.  That is obviously an assumption you can't prove, since it is not true. I find a lot of it fascinating- from the types of galaxies, the vastness of space, the harmony and chaos at work, cycles of the life of a star, etc. etc.

Edited December 17, 2018 by futuredaze

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, futuredaze said:

The moon thing is QUESTIONING something that was pushed by a GOVERNMENT AGENCY from a country whose official agencies are known for lying all the time.

 

Assume the moon landing was faked. Every country in the entire world would be HIGHLY MOTIVATED to expose the lie. Yet not a single one has. Therefore the ENTIRE WORLD must be in on the lie. Yes, that must be it.

[Taoist Texts]

35 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Every country in the entire world would be HIGHLY MOTIVATED to expose the lie.

Why? Or how? Are you sure that $1/per day/per person countries would have exposing so high on their list of priorities?

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Aetherous said:

...

 

 

Well, I don't disregard it. Knowing that it's the third leading cause of death is part of being informed.

• A recent Johns Hopkins study claims more than 250,000 people in the U.S. die every year from medical errors. Other reports claim the numbers to be as high as 440,000.
• Medical errors are the third-leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

 

Medical "errors" are mostly systemic problems which include poorly coordinated care, fragmented insurance networks, the absence or underuse of safety nets, and other protocols, in addition to unwarranted variation in physician practice patterns that lack accountability.

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Bindi

[Patrick Brown]

Quote

 

Just way too many things wrong with this picture!

Notice the absence of stars again.

The arrows indicate the various directions in which shadows are falling, again showing evidence of inconsistent scene illumination. Yet there is something even more obviously wrong with this picture.

If the length of the lower support column of the lunar lander was 4 feet tall, this would indicate that the astronaut was over 8 feet tall, which none of the astronauts were.

Another careless mistake from NASA.

 

 

Oh yes NASA, it's all very well adding stars on this picture just to make us realise how wrong we have been. We are not fooled so easily!

If we look a bit more closely, we spot the constellation of Pegasus with the planet Saturn (marked S1) clearly visible in the top left corner. Yet at the time of the mission, although Saturn appeared to be near Pegasus from Earth, from the Moon it would have appeared to be in a completely different position (marked S2).

It is almost insulting to think that NASA could get away with this obvious howler!

 

 

[Patrick Brown]

And here's the truth about life on Mars! 

 

 

[wandelaar]

9 hours ago, futuredaze said:

I am trying to learn as much as possible to get a better understanding of the matter.  There is no need to clinging onto a view until one can see the situation clearly and fully. 

 

[rideforever]

Since 911 it is quite easy to see how people become interested in alternative versions / explanations of events.   For instance looking at the history of the lease that the UK had on Hong Kong before it was handed back for humanitarian reasons, is interesting !   Likewise the petro dollar and the US deals with the Saudis in the 1970s.   

 

Most of mankind is extremely habitual, and will always be, they refuse to use the possibilities that are available in their intelligence.   They are happy with easy answers that allows them to continue going through life without feeling anything.

 

As for the Moon .... well, if you have seen a plane takeoff or a rocket launch, then how much more is it to get to the Moon.  Not that much and if you have massive NASA funds from the worlds biggest economy, plus hundreds of German scientists borrowed after WW2, then surely they can do that.   Even I drove once through the night 600 miles, running on diet coke and grass.

 

But, the real stories about such events are hidden and often quite manipulated.  Always interesting to hear personal perspectives from people involved in the space programme, or in the political side of things in that era.

 

It was a great era, many things happened, and society closed down now.

 

The most important thing is not to "know" if they went or not, but to truly challenge yourself on what you know, to be willing to try.   For instance how can you prove conclusively that the Earth is not flat .... without recourse to anything you have ever been told, any books or any internet.
Just you, walking in a field .... can you prove the Earth is not flat ?
To try and do that, in a serious way, to really challenge yourself will open your intelligence like never before.
But the funny thing is, I don't think many people would even try, they might imagine they would try .... but they wouldn't actually try.
Humans are cowardly sheep and always will be.

[wandelaar]

18 minutes ago, rideforever said:

The most important thing is not to "know" if they went or not, but to truly challenge yourself on what you know, to be willing to try.   For instance how can you prove conclusively that the Earth is not flat .... without recourse to anything you have ever been told, any books or any internet.

Just you, walking in a field .... can you prove the Earth is not flat ?
To try and do that, in a serious way, to really challenge yourself will open your intelligence like never before.
But the funny thing is, I don't think many people would even try, they might imagine they would try .... but they wouldn't actually try.
Humans are cowardly sheep and always will be.

 

Would you? Now how about opening a topic where you try to follow through on your own advise and let us know what you find. That would be much more interesting than this endless grumpy old men stuff.... 

[Patrick Brown]

16 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Even I drove once through the night 600 miles, running on diet coke and grass.

 

And from that day forth he shall be known as "rideforever! 

 

17 minutes ago, rideforever said:

The most important thing is not to "know" if they went or not, but to truly challenge yourself on what you know, to be willing to try.   For instance how can you prove conclusively that the Earth is not flat .... without recourse to anything you have ever been told, any books or any internet.
Just you, walking in a field .... can you prove the Earth is not flat ?
To try and do that, in a serious way, to really challenge yourself will open your intelligence like never before.
But the funny thing is, I don't think many people would even try, they might imagine they would try .... but they wouldn't actually try.
Humans are cowardly sheep and always will be.

 

Yes and this is why they talk about initiation and the initiated in the mystery schools. It's not that being taught something can open the mind it's more a case of being able to accept that something can be seen in a completely different way. We're taught that life is sacred but isn't death also sacred? Perhaps dieing releases us to a better world so why hold onto life? What is the colour of the sky and are day and night just an illusion that only have a relative truth?

 

Letting go of what we think we know isn't easy and certainly not for the faint hearted.  

[rideforever]

11 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

Yes and this is why they talk about initiation and the initiated in the mystery schools. It's not that being taught something can open the mind it's more a case of being able to accept that something can be seen in a completely different way. We're taught that life is sacred but isn't death also sacred? Perhaps dieing releases us to a better world so why hold onto life? What is the colour of the sky and are day and night just an illusion that only have a relative truth?

 

Letting go of what we think we know isn't easy and certainly not for the faint hearted.  

 

Yes indeed, all wonderful questions.  And worthy of really going in to.   And also, there are loads of barriers inside you, and for good reason you can't just exist in a vaccum we have so many connections that keep us sane.   But there are those few who choose to step by step, explore.   Even with tai chi and qigong.  How many are just doing what they are told and make a big show of it.  Really ?   Well were do you think these movements come from ?  Somebody has to invent them ?   Maybe you can start changing the practice as you see fit, doing what you want to do.
Ultimately do you want to exist ?
Step by step, you try, change, explore and so on, you use your free will, and then over time gain the power of it.
Certainly people that know me, know that almost everything I do is not done as the ordinary !!!   And it just gets worse !!!

[Patrick Brown]

2 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Yes indeed, all wonderful questions.  And worthy of really going in to.   And also, there are loads of barriers inside you, and for good reason you can't just exist in a vaccum we have so many connections that keep us sane.   But there are those few who choose to step by step, explore.   Even with tai chi and qigong.  How many are just doing what they are told and make a big show of it.  Really ?   Well were do you think these movements come from ?  Somebody has to invent them ?   Maybe you can start changing the practice as you see fit, doing what you want to do.
Ultimately do you want to exist ?
Step by step, you try, change, explore and so on, you use your free will, and then over time gain the power of it.
Certainly people that know me, know that almost everything I do is not done as the ordinary !!!   And it just gets worse !!!

 

We could also add that following the crowd could mean they never become enlightened! 

 

Certain Buddhist texts I read years ago had the Buddha saying enlightenment wasn't natural! Of course what is natural and what is simply dogma and following a prescribed route? Of course an enlightened being might wonder what the hell are these humans doing!    

[Stosh]

When one has no information , or rejects it, anything may seem plausible. Living at the shore , you can watch ships go over the horizon , and its perfectly natural to think the earth is not flat: and not knowing any problems that would arise , going to the moon , its quite plausible to think people Can indeed go there. 

Living by ones smarts is rarely done. I know a guy who appears to do that , one person , that's it. He is quite remarkable. 

[rideforever]

Farmers know things, carpenters know things.   Why ?  Simple, because they are not slobs.   They have to know to do their job, and importantly their job uses several faculties together, the body, the mind, and the heart (pride).  And together you learn, and you learn good.  Basic principles, weeds, knotted wood, weight bearing and non-weight bearing, critical moments in the rhythm and uncritical moments.   You learn from small things, pay the price, and then you can apply to all areas of life.  That's real work.   And you pay for it, your arms hurt at the end of the day.

 

Some things that people do today which are not good is :
- trying to take what is not yours
- eating when you didn't work

- talking without experience

- letting others do things for you

- not contributing

- allowing yourself to become weak

- refusing to use what you have

 

The internet has drawn people into a large web of dependence and shared group thinking.  This normally results in the atrophy of the intelligence of the individual, and we can expect the brain size of humans to degenerate even more than it has already.   The internet will not lead to awakening humanity, but to the robotisation of humanity, the more people consume ideas, the less there is a need to think.   And it reflects a lack of interest in higher things, within the species, or even within the whole planet.   A deep sleep.

So, tremendous inner resolve is necessary to be alive whilst you are here.
It is wise to do everything yourself, you will soon see the benefit.
Also one has to not judge this world, the source loves all its creatures equally.  When you are born as a tree, some are born in a large and fertile field and grow readily to a great height.   Other trees grow in marshy soil, always struggling with the ground, never growing to their blueprint.  Should they complain ?   We are part of a great system, it requires willing workers to take up the yoke of an incarnation no matter where it be.

 

 

[Patrick Brown]

6 minutes ago, rideforever said:

It is wise to do everything yourself, you will soon see the benefit.

 

I try! 

 

But I'm still very much the fool. 

[rideforever]

There was a time when the world cheered America, and I had the American flag on my wall.   
And it meant freedom, life, and spirit.

[Stosh]

America hasn't changed , the world decided the relationship would be different , force your way across the border , set up EU to compete with the US as a trading block,  expect the US to police the world for free... (well not exactly free, the idea is that each nation would bestow approval if their will be done.)

Massage the ol' american ego, or stand up!  with proud defiance !.. from behind some despotic or impoverished countries border. 

I think we should stop even attempting for world approval , its a suckers bet. 

[rideforever]

Life ebbs and flows, then its over.
Whoever leaves with the most stuff, inside, wins.

[zerostao]

it amazes me that the same ones who scoff at people over religious beliefs and faiths are often the very same ones who accept anything the science community presents without a second thought. no belief or faith involved with that, oh wait

the fact is that today Monday, December 17, 2018, NASA cannot go to the Moon if it wanted to.

whether Tibetans or West Virginians used to fly mountain top to mountain top in the past or if NASA went to the Moon in the past makes for amusing conversation

[thelerner]

I wonder if our kids will doubt that the shuttle existed or that it went into space.  Yes pictures of it but we have pictures of the 5 moon flights, this decade the Japanese had a satellite that took somewhat murky picture showing the landing sites and evidence, a few years later the U.S launch LOR that came back with better mapping of the moon and had clearer picture of the vehicles left behind.  The pilots who flew on it will be alive but they could be stooges as well as all the engineers who built it.  Fake because it was paid for by the government, and it can't be trusted. 

 

Course since 1972 we left behind large reflectors that allowed us then and now to shoot lasers at the moon and see get there reflection back, so we can get the distance within inches.  We left 1,000's lbs of gear and took back 100's of pounds of rock.  Studied them and learned about the origin of the moon.  Including some strange yellow soil, that they photographed on the moon, took back and found it volcanic. 

 

To fake it isn't just movie set stuff.  Thousands of people worked hands on, on the project and 100,000's worked tangentally on it.  Physically we built the worlds largest rocket, on top put on a two part landing vehicle and a large powered orbiter.  There's a complexity here that is astounding.  On the face of it unnecessary.  You'd assume going to the moon, the same vehicle would get you there then get you back, but the physics don't work that way.  Before the 17 (depending on how you count'em) Apollo missions there 19 Gemini missions done to test vehicles and men in space.  We built, flew and tested and it very very dangerous work.  Test pilots and astronauts died.  

 

Like Lindberg's solution to crossing the Atlantic, it was all about weight, so the landing vehicle needed to be explosively separated, left behind and lunar module launched into back into space to be caught by orbiter.  At every step here, there are geniuses who repeated failed and kept working on the 1,000 myriad systems of life support, propulsion, navigation, until they got it right.  I find calling there work fake is horribly disrespectful.

 

Giant rockets loaded with multiple vehicles went up, seen live and on TV by millions.  Capsules parachuted down (and pieces of the rocket) and were picked up by sea.  To hide repeatedly all of the tons of machinery involved would be herculean.  To be exposed as cheating would be a national wound.  If you succeeded, no one in there right mind would do it 5 times, because conspiracies don't work with 1,000's of people. 

 

We continued in space, we built a space station, the Russians did; we worked with nations around the globe to build the International Space Station and its visible across the sky each night. 

 

Much of the skeptical proof is debunked, easily found in articles and youtubes.  I was just looking at Snopes.com, moon stuff but debunking is everywhere plus fun stuff from people like Mythbusters and The World's Smartest man Cecil Adams weighs in here, https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1758/was-the-apollo-moon-landing-a-hoax/

Its sad we need this though, but the proof is out there. 

[zerostao]

yes snopes ( a mom & pop operation) hold the keys to all Trooths.

our governemnt or any government would never lie to its people or swindle them.

nvm the 21 trillion found at the pentagon they shouldnt have had, well they lost it, conveniently.

people at the top are never greedy crooks.

here is the Apollo 11 press conference after returning from the moon.

notice how the three astronauts are able to look the audience in the eye and exhibit confident body language befitting national /world heroes that had just accomplished the greatest feat in technological history. they sure look like confident honest joyful achievers of the highest level to me.

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by zerostao