Animal sacrific and other rituals of antiquity

[Desmonddf]

Most animal sacrifice follow a few rules: 

 

1 - A properly trained priest do it. Only him can do it. It's not like "oh, i should sacrifice a goat" and do it. There are technique and ritual involved.

 

2 - There are properly sharpened and perfect tools ready for the act. They are sacred and especialy prepared beforehand. 

 

3 - The animal is used in whole after the sacrifice. The meat is eaten and shared with the comunity. That includes most of the organs. The intestines are usually used for making rope, while the brain and nerves are used as tanning abrasive.

 

Skin/feathers/scales/horns are used for making clothing, drunms, accesories, blow horns, sacred drinking mugs or ritual tools.

 

Teeth, bones, nails and etc as well. Even the blood is used, as it showers the altar/earth and "nourishes" it. It can also be collected and either be drank, used as fertilizer or others.

 

4 - The animal which is to be sacrificed must be killed in a single stroke. No mistakes can be done, and there can be no pain. 

 

5 - It must happen in a specific date, and/or ritual, etc.

 

6 - Gods must be called, evil spirits banished, guardian spirits/beasts/entities must be called to keep them away. 

 

7 - The sacrifice needs to have a good reason to be done. 

 

8 - Many traditions look if the animal "accepts" being sacrificed or not. If the animal tries to run away from the altar or somewhat tries to avoid the sacrifice, then it is released and another one is called. If the spirits/gods are present, the animal will usualy calmly go to the sacrificial altar and offer itself (to the point of offering its neck to the knife). If not, then as soon as it sees and smells the blood and/or the knife, it will usualy start to try to run away and escape... or fall to the ground in terror. Those animals aren't acceptable on noble sacrifice.

 

Now, what happens when all of that is taken into account ? 

 

The Qi, Xue and life force in the animal's blood, organs, meat and other parts are refined and turned into pure substances which can be used by the gods/spirits for a huge array of objectives, such as materializating a temporary body, healing, moving and/or changing things in the physical plane, aleviating the burden on the medium in cases of very intensive and powerful possession practices, divination and so on.

 

Some of its souls (mainly zhi, po and shen) can be refined as well. 

 

The animal's hun soul is usually redirected, while its Pi soul can be refined or used to refine other substances.

 

The refined substances which the gods/spirits have no use for, they then 

 

Now, if you're not doing it like this, you'll either have your own ways to deal with the consequences, be doing dark magic (sacrificing animals which have gone through much suffering and pain can be used to generate disease and/or death on others), or simply feeding low-class spirits/elementals which are addicted to animal blood/life force.

 

That's mostly it. 

Edited December 28, 2018 by Desmonddf

[Maddie]

3 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

The Qi, Xue and life force in the animal's blood, organs, meat and other parts are refined and turned into pure substances which can be used by the gods/spirits for a huge array of objectives, such as materializating a temporary body, healing, moving and/or changing things in the physical plane, aleviating the burden on the medium in cases of very intensive and powerful possession practices, divination and so on.

 

Some of its souls (mainly zhi, po and shen) can be refined as well. 

 

The animal's hun soul is usually redirected, while its Pi soul can be refined or used to refine other substances.

 

The refined substances which the gods/spirits have no use for, they then 

 

 

 

This was one of the main things I was wondering about.

[Nuralshamal]

On 19.12.2018 at 11:34 PM, Maddie said:

One thing I think I have come to notice as I continue to practice and experiment is that a lot of ritual practices of religion and the ancient world in particular that I had once shrugged off as the superstitions of a simpler time seem to have more to them than I once realized.

 

One of these is the practice of animal sacrifice, which while still practiced these days, seemed to be a much more wide spread ritual in the ancient world that spanned most cultures universally. I'd never really understood the reasoning behind it, and I'm sure the reasons varied from culture to culture, but it seems that the sages and priests of old often had a deeper spiritual awareness than mere superstition. What I am wondering though is what is the benefit of doing so? What is the mechanism? Does the deity being sacrificed an animal (or sometimes human) to benefit from it?

 

That being said it makes me wonder about other old practices such as baptism, circumcision, communion, pilgrimage, relics, and so on and so forth. I was just curious if anyone had any knowledge, thoughts, or insights into this topic.

Intro to universal trends on planet Earth
There is no doubt that ancient peoples, cultures and religions are much more connected than usually thought.

This was a big shock to me when I first noticed, but you're right. 

How can all people of all times have been doing the same thing? Even when they're on different continents, and supposedly had no or only little contact with each other?

Some examples of universal trends 
E.g. fire sacrifice all over the Planet. Cain killed Abel, after they performed a fire sacrifice. Even the Qur'an has fire sacrifice in it, when it talks about the old prophets. It's a huge part of Hinduism (homa, havan, yagna). Even the more meditation oriented Tibetan Buddhism also performs pujas and homas (fire sacrifices). How did ancient caveman worship? Also through the fire, dancing and storytelling etc. So all cultures and all religions since the discovery of fire has had fire sacrifices.

There are pyramids in Meso- and northern South America. There are pyramids in Mali (West Africa), as well as of course Egypt. There are also pyramids in Iran (ziggurats), as well as pyramid-like temple structures in both India and China. How could all people of old, pretty much within the same latitudes around the equator, get the idea to build this similar strucuture?

Furthermore, these pyramid-like structures are all aligned with the universe. Some are set up to mark winter and summer solstice, as well as spring and autumn equinox. Some are aligned with the Orion star constellation. Some with the star Sirius. Some with the Big Dipper.

Why did all these ancient peoples built pyramids aligned astronomically with the universe?

Proposed explanation for universal trends
According to the danish painting prophet Martinus, Almighty God has 5 impulses of guidance over the Earth:
1) Nature religion (living in harmony with nature and the seasons, everything is spirit, sacrifices) 90.000 years ago
2) Ancient and inhumane religions (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, systematized vengeance, kill unbelievers to get to heaven)
3) Humane religions (forgiveness and compassion)
4) Naturalistic Science (believe nothing, test and verify yourself through direct perception with the 5 senses)
5) Spiritual Science (intelligence and compassion together, karma, reincarnation, divine plan, all of mankind is one family).

These different impulses of guidance has suited people of a different evolutionary stature. 0 is an animal, 100 is a true human being.

0-20 is best guided by nature religions,
20-40 is best guided by inhumane warrior religions,
40-60 is best guided by humane religions,
60-80 is best guided by either being a humane materialist, or an intellectual religious,
80-100 is best guided by spiritual science.

Let's estimate that the average evolutionary step for planet Earth today is 50.

There are still some very primitive people at 5-25 somewhere on the planet, however, we also have highly advanced people at 70-99 incarnated and walking around.

So, even though the average of planet Earth is generally always increasing (slowly but surely), there have been glimpses where specific ancient cultures as an average have reached higher levels than the current planetary average.

In short, some ancient cultures in smaller locations could have broken through and reached a cultural average of 60, 70, 80 or even 90 for short periods of time. The planterary average was still lower than today's 50, however, localized cultures could have been momentarily higher.

That means that even today, we can still sometimes learn a lot from ancient cultures (in case they are indeed examples of a culture on a higher evolutionary average than the one we are currently part of).

The hindus group the universe into tamas, rajas and sattva.

Things that hurt yourself or others are tamas in nature (0-40 on the above scale).
Things that are mixed good and bad are rajas in nature (40-60 on the above scale).
Things that benefit yourself and others are sattva (60-100 on the above scale).

Animal and human sacrifice is simply a tamasic take on religion. Going into holy war is rajas. Being at peace with everything and everyone is sattva.

The shastras (scriptures) prescribe mantras, rituals, meditations and ways of life for both tamasic, rajasic and satvic peoples.

You want to acquire a magical power? You can do it in a fast and furious manner with a tamasic ritual. You can do it with a little more effort with a rajasic ritual. You can do it with a lot of effort with a satvic ritual.

In general things of tamasic and rajasic nature are faster working in the material world, yet come at a greater karmic cost, whereas satvic methods take longer yet are pure in process and result.

Just like plundering or stealing: it's much faster and easier to take the things of weaker people, than building, acquiring and cultivating these things for yourself. E.g. go do a well planned buglary a couple of times per year, and you're econimacally set for the year. Compare that to many years spent studying to get an education, then working many hours per week, giving half to taxes etc.

One is fast and easy, yet comes with a karmic cost as it goes against universal values.
One is slow and hard, yet there's no karmic cost as it is in accord with universal values.

Specific explanations for each question
There is a lot of energy generated by animal and human sacrifice. This attracts tamasic spirits. They can do a lot with that energy. As it is tamasic, what they do will be in an evil way, yet it can give quick results (healing, money, fame, magical powers etc).

Baptism is symbolic of inner and outer purity, emphasises hygiene, and is a way to transfer energy (e.g. from priest to worshipper).

Circumcision gives benefits to hygiene and protects against many STDs, something very useful in ancient times, especially in hot and humid climates. Furthermore, it makes it harder to masturbate. This would make you more prone to desiring actual sex instead of cumbersome masturbation, especially in the old world where there weren't lotions etc readily available. In the Old Testament as well as the Qur'an, they're extremely critical of masturbation. Why? Because they were warring peoples. They needed as many believers as possible to fight and to protect the religion, as well as to work the fields, labor etc. If everyone just spanked the monkey, where should all the new workers and soldiers come from?

Communion is like baptism, it's a symbolic act hinting at an inner process of communion with something higher than yourself.

Pilgrimage: just like we have meridians and points of power on our bodies (acupoints), the planet also has meridians of energy as well as points of power. If you built certain structures in line with the energy of the Earth, a specific energy is generated there. Certain structures can also connect with universal energies (e.g. from Stars, constellations etc). By going there, you can get the benefits of that energy.

Relics: relics can hold energy for a long time. This allows worshippers to connect with that same energy. 

Conclusion
Through the lens of Martinus and his spiritual science, we can quickly understand and analyse the logics of ancient cultures, peoples and religions.

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Intro to universal trends on planet Earth
There is no doubt that ancient peoples, cultures and religions are much more connected than usually thought.

This was a big shock to me when I first noticed, but you're right. 

How can all people of all times have been doing the same thing? Even when they're on different continents, and supposedly had no or only little contact with each other?

 

A few reasons , the most basic one , without laying down a course in anthropology here ,  is  that we are all human and share certain traits... no matter where or when we turned up .

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Some examples of universal trends 
E.g. fire sacrifice all over the Planet. Cain killed Abel, after they performed a fire sacrifice. Even the Qur'an has fire sacrifice in it, when it talks about the old prophets. It's a huge part of Hinduism (homa, havan, yagna). Even the more meditation oriented Tibetan Buddhism also performs pujas and homas (fire sacrifices). How did ancient caveman worship? Also through the fire, dancing and storytelling etc. So all cultures and all religions since the discovery of fire has had fire sacrifices.

 

No they have not. Australian Aboriginal cultures actually have no sacrificial tradition whatsoever in any area .

 

You cant use Christian, Jew or Muslim analogy as their stories all come from the same source and regarding this subject are not separated from each other .  ' Ancient cavemen' is a rather vague designation .  I think what you might be seeing as 'fire sacrifice' is mistaken ... how does one 'sacrifice' fire .... look into Zoroastrianism ... THE  fire religion ... if you REALLY look into it you will see they do not actually sacrifice fire , nor worship it - as many suppose .

 

Indo European tribes practiced sacrifice , but when they  moved from the Steppe  down into south central Asia   and blended with people from BMAC culture  and then split in two  (  to later become Zoroastrians and Hindus ) BOTH of them forbade the old animal sacrifice culture ( via Zarathustra and Tonpa Shenrab, { also known as Shenrab Miwo, Buddha Shenrab, Guru Shenrab and a number of other titles, is the legendary founder of the Bon religious tradition of Tibet }  )   and from those two directions (east and west) most of the worlds religions radiated outwards .

 

Sacrifice was substituted with offerings , often agricultural products ... these ceremonies are not sacrifices  but offerings . There is a HUGE difference , especially on the psychological makeup of the 'operator' .

 

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

There are pyramids in Meso- and northern South America. There are pyramids in Mali (West Africa), as well as of course Egypt. There are also pyramids in Iran (ziggurats), as well as pyramid-like temple structures in both India and China. How could all people of old, pretty much within the same latitudes around the equator, get the idea to build this similar strucuture?

 

The answer to that is no mystery at all and is easily answered .  If any human tries to build the simplest of form and  highest structure possible , without modern technology .... what shape do get ?   Basically its about 'piling up rocks' . No I am not being simplistic , this comes from years of study and is supported by opinion all over the place ... if one cares to actually look into these  these things .

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Furthermore, these pyramid-like structures are all aligned with the universe. Some are set up to mark winter and summer solstice, as well as spring and autumn equinox. Some are aligned with the Orion star constellation. Some with the star Sirius. Some with the Big Dipper.

Why did all these ancient peoples built pyramids aligned astronomically with the universe?

 

Any big structure was ... even lines of stones , earthworks , rock carvings , anything significant .  Its to do with agriculture, or hunting and gathering , even pastorialists did it .  Its a type of clock .  More so than today people realized the importance of cosmic . solar and lunar cycles. 

 

'Dark emu' is a perfect example .... when the big emu in the sky lines up with the big emu on the ground , its time to gather emu eggs for food ;

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Proposed explanation for universal trends
According to the danish painting prophet Martinus, Almighty God has 5 impulses of guidance over the Earth:
1) Nature religion (living in harmony with nature and the seasons, everything is spirit, sacrifices) 90.000 years ago
2) Ancient and inhumane religions (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, systematized vengeance, kill unbelievers to get to heaven)
3) Humane religions (forgiveness and compassion)
4) Naturalistic Science (believe nothing, test and verify yourself through direct perception with the 5 senses)
5) Spiritual Science (intelligence and compassion together, karma, reincarnation, divine plan, all of mankind is one family).

These different impulses of guidance has suited people of a different evolutionary stature. 0 is an animal, 100 is a true human being.

0-20 is best guided by nature religions,
20-40 is best guided by inhumane warrior religions,
40-60 is best guided by humane religions,
60-80 is best guided by either being a humane materialist, or an intellectual religious,
80-100 is best guided by spiritual science.

Let's estimate that the average evolutionary step for planet Earth today is 50.

There are still some very primitive people at 5-25 somewhere on the planet, however, we also have highly advanced people at 70-99 incarnated and walking around.

So, even though the average of planet Earth is generally always increasing (slowly but surely), there have been glimpses where specific ancient cultures as an average have reached higher levels than the current planetary average.

In short, some ancient cultures in smaller locations could have broken through and reached a cultural average of 60, 70, 80 or even 90 for short periods of time. The planterary average was still lower than today's 50, however, localized cultures could have been momentarily higher.

That means that even today, we can still sometimes learn a lot from ancient cultures (in case they are indeed examples of a culture on a higher evolutionary average than the one we are currently part of).

 

Well, that is one man's perspective .  However the bolded bit is certainly significant and important . here in Oz its just starting  in things like indigenous environmental management   being given credit and the people being asked to train others in it .  Especially so in areas of fire management .

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

The hindus group the universe into tamas, rajas and sattva.

 

Indeed, and everything in the Universe can be so grouped .   On an 'ideal level ', then it 'bumps up to groups of four as it comes into the 'real level' .

 

One way of describing 'gunas'  and how they operate within our psyche is ; feeling , thought and ecstasy .

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Things that hurt yourself or others are tamas in nature (0-40 on the above scale).
Things that are mixed good and bad are rajas in nature (40-60 on the above scale).
Things that benefit yourself and others are sattva (60-100 on the above scale).

Animal and human sacrifice is simply a tamasic take on religion. Going into holy war is rajas. Being at peace with everything and everyone is sattva.

 

And the task is to go beyond that  to 'the one' ;

 

Feeling thought and ecstasy

Are but the cerements of Me.

Thrown off like planets from the Sun
Ye are but satellites of the One.
But should your revolution stop
Ye would inevitably drop
Headlong within the central Soul,
And all the parts become the Whole.
Sloth and activity and peace,
When will ye learn that ye must cease?

 

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

The shastras (scriptures) prescribe mantras, rituals, meditations and ways of life for both tamasic, rajasic and satvic peoples.

You want to acquire a magical power? You can do it in a fast and furious manner with a tamasic ritual. You can do it with a little more effort with a rajasic ritual. You can do it with a lot of effort with a satvic ritual.

In general things of tamasic and rajasic nature are faster working in the material world, yet come at a greater karmic cost, whereas satvic methods take longer yet are pure in process and result.

Just like plundering or stealing: it's much faster and easier to take the things of weaker people, than building, acquiring and cultivating these things for yourself. E.g. go do a well planned buglary a couple of times per year, and you're econimacally set for the year. Compare that to many years spent studying to get an education, then working many hours per week, giving half to taxes etc.

One is fast and easy, yet comes with a karmic cost as it goes against universal values.
One is slow and hard, yet there's no karmic cost as it is in accord with universal values.

 

I like 'slow and steady wins the race.'

 

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Specific explanations for each question
There is a lot of energy generated by animal and human sacrifice. This attracts tamasic spirits. They can do a lot with that energy. As it is tamasic, what they do will be in an evil way, yet it can give quick results (healing, money, fame, magical powers etc).

 

Yet the great reformers mentioned above outlined the terrible psychic damage done to many things including the self from such practices .

\

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Baptism is symbolic of inner and outer purity, emphasises hygiene, and is a way to transfer energy (e.g. from priest to worshipper).

Circumcision gives benefits to hygiene and protects against many STDs, something very useful in ancient times, especially in hot and humid climates. Furthermore, it makes it harder to masturbate. This would make you more prone to desiring actual sex instead of cumbersome masturbation, especially in the old world where there weren't lotions etc readily available

 

Wow .

Are you serious ?  'Lotions' where not available ? 

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 

 

. In the Old Testament as well as the Qur'an, they're extremely critical of masturbation. Why? Because they were warring peoples. They needed as many believers as possible to fight and to protect the religion, as well as to work the fields, labor etc. If everyone just spanked the monkey, where should all the new workers and soldiers come from?

 

   Now we have to imagine those tribes that were not so hung up on it... all sitting around jerking off and eventually dying out due to no population replacements . Ummm ... thats just about all the tribes on earth  except the Jews 

 

.... hmmm , maybe its time to duck out of of this ... its getting to silly .

 

 

9 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 

 

Communion is like baptism, it's a symbolic act hinting at an inner process of communion with something higher than yourself.

Pilgrimage: just like we have meridians and points of power on our bodies (acupoints), the planet also has meridians of energy as well as points of power. If you built certain structures in line with the energy of the Earth, a specific energy is generated there. Certain structures can also connect with universal energies (e.g. from Stars, constellations etc). By going there, you can get the benefits of that energy.

Relics: relics can hold energy for a long time. This allows worshippers to connect with that same energy. 

Conclusion
Through the lens of Martinus and his spiritual science, we can quickly understand and analyse the logics of ancient cultures, peoples and religions.

 

I prefer a lifetime of studying anthropology and religion thanks   

[Nuralshamal]

@Nungali

Hey Nungali, thanks for your interesting comments.

It's clear that you have more academic background in this field, and therefore argue in a more precise way as to the use of terms and their meaning, than I do as a layman in this area (e.g. offering vs sacrifice, this is pretty much synonomous for a layman, whereas there's clearly a difference in academia - for a layman, both mean that you put something physical for a higher power, whereas for you there's a difference in some underlying anthropological understanding of the MEANING behind the action, whereas for a layman describing it, it's the exact same action in both cases).

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and comments backed by your research, albeit I feel you to be a bit too easily jumping over many of my arguments.

I understand that this is due to you already having studied this subject and are therefore informed by your research and knowledge of current scientific consensus.

I don't feel much dialogue or two-way communication from you, nor really an interest in an actual exchange. I feel more you are simply sputtering out the info in your brain from your studies, reproducing what you have taken in with a complete faith that this is the ultimate truth.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, this is just my gut feeling. 

I feel you're zooming in on certain details and commenting on them individually (more analytical), instead of commenting on the overall message (syncretic or holistic view). Just as an example: with circumcision and masturbation, there's no comment on hygiene, protection against STD's, utility of circumcision in hot and humid climates, you zoom in on just lotions. That's just one single point. The message is that there was a logical reasoning for circumcision, this I don't feel you to be tackling or commenting on. In general your message seems overall more focused on simply being contrarian in general than interested in a dialogue or an exchange.

This could again be wrong, as it's just a feeling, so please just let me know what your true intention was (by this point I've already said the word "dialogue" a thousand times, so I hope you can see that's what I'm inviting to start  )

If you're interested in an actual exchange, I would actually really enjoy getting your perspectives on a few things.

I really like and enjoy exchanges, because I like to learn. You have clearly researched a lot in this area, so I can benefit a lot from your knowledge if you're interested.

The first thing I would like your take on is these pyramid structures. More particularly Macchu Picchu in Peru.

What I've heard is that this construction is unique, because there's no mortar between stones. They're cut so perfectly that they just fit together. This is considered unique, and very smart, because it allows the stones micro-movement during earthquakes without cracks, actually making it more stable than buildings with mortar.

No modern society on planet Earth, even today, build without mortar (to my knowledge). Still to this day, even with laser precision equipment and cutting, we can't replicate the precision of the Macchu Picchu stone masons.

What would your opinion be as to how they could do this back then? Something we can't even do with all of our advanced technology today.

Further, the materials used for Macchu Picchu consists of tree, stone, rocks etc (different materials) that were all sourced on different sides of the mountains (e.g. some from the jungles, some from the low-lands etc etc, just far-away-places), and yet they were all transported to the top of the mountain to the site of Macchu Picchu. I've been told that even today with modern technology, this would be very difficult (if not impossible).

What's your take on how they got these materials up there?

So 2 questions about Macchu Picchu:
1) How could they cut with better precision than we do today?
2) How did they get big, heavy and diverse materials from different places up a mountain, which we struggle to do even today?

The reason for this question is:
1) I am curious about this in general, and looking for an explanation myself,
2) You've clearly employed the "simplest explanation is the most likely" for the other pyramid structures, so I'm interested to see where you will go with this one

Of course, my own perspective is related to what I wrote above, namely that there have been cultures on higher levels than our current culture, ergo they could do things we can't due to using, among other things, spiritual technology.

Lastly, I would like your explanation for the Nazcar lines as well  also in Peru.
 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Nuralshamal

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

@Nungali

Hey Nungali, thanks for your interesting comments.

It's clear that you have more academic background in this field, and therefore argue in a more precise way as to the use of terms and their meaning, than I do as a layman in this area (e.g. offering vs sacrifice, this is pretty much synonomous for a layman, whereas there's clearly a difference in academia - for a layman, both mean that you put something physical for a higher power, whereas for you there's a difference in some underlying anthropological understanding of the MEANING behind the action, whereas for a layman describing it, it's the exact same action in both cases).

 

 

That is not my only source, I also took Comparative Religion and Divinity , but my  own views (aside from any academic ones are heavily influenced by the other things I did , mainly 'field work' in religions , ie. dont just study from the outside , get in there and practice and experience it . Especially in the field of western tradition / hermetics / magick .  In that field the examination of sacrifice is a  large subject ... it is in that field and in regard to spirituality that I draw the distinction between offering and and sacrifice ... and as a reminding clarity ... here we are talking about  the banning of animal sacrifice and the substitution of that with 'offerings' - ie. not killing an animal .  So  ( and its probably my mistake causing confusion by not writing precisely enough ) there is certainly  a difference here  that I see  and not the same action .

 

However the underlying principle is the same  from a  magical perspective .  Its the method that is different .

 

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and comments backed by your research, albeit I feel you to be a bit too easily jumping over many of my arguments.
I understand that this is due to you already having studied this subject and are therefore informed by your research and knowledge of current scientific consensus.

I don't feel much dialogue or two-way communication from you, nor really an interest in an actual exchange. I feel more you are simply sputtering out the info in your brain from your studies, reproducing what you have taken in with a complete faith that this is the ultimate truth.

 

   There is no 'ultimate truth' nor do I have complete faith in my brain .

 

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, this is just my gut feeling. 

I feel you're zooming in on certain details and commenting on them individually (more analytical), instead of commenting on the overall message (syncretic or holistic view). Just as an example: with circumcision and masturbation, there's no comment on hygiene, protection against STD's, utility of circumcision in hot and humid climates, you zoom in on just lotions.

 

Thats just my  way ... I was having a joke , having a 'go at you' for what I detected as something rather silly and possibly not serious . The things you mentioned above are valid .... but I dont think any lack of modern sex lotions every stopped people masturbating in the past . That was my point . To me , it stood out as something silly from the rest of the comments .

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 

That's just one single point. The message is that there was a logical reasoning for circumcision, this I don't feel you to be tackling or commenting on. In general your message seems overall more focused on simply being contrarian in general than interested in a dialogue or an exchange.

 

yes, I was being contrarian regarding the lotion .  if you want a more serious discussion on masturbation  (wow, thats a first for Daobums     ) , it probably be another subject and thread ... you covered a few subject in that post , any deep discussion on them, they should be split off , UNLESS , I think , it is more focused on the topic issue ( however  can we separate masturbation from group rituals ? I feel a bit urky talking about group masturbation rituals . )

 

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

This could again be wrong, as it's just a feeling, so please just let me know what your true intention was (by this point I've already said the word "dialogue" a thousand times, so I hope you can see that's what I'm inviting to start  )

 

My intention was to point out I think its rather silly and uninformed to link the lack of  modern sex lotions with  reasons  for or against masturbation in  ancient societies.

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

If you're interested in an actual exchange, I would actually really enjoy getting your perspectives on a few things.

I really like and enjoy exchanges, because I like to learn. You have clearly researched a lot in this area, so I can benefit a lot from your knowledge if you're interested.

The first thing I would like your take on is these pyramid structures. More particularly Macchu Picchu in Peru.

What I've heard is that this construction is unique, because there's no mortar between stones. They're cut so perfectly that they just fit together. This is considered unique, and very smart, because it allows the stones micro-movement during earthquakes without cracks, actually making it more stable than buildings with mortar.

 

Is it unique ?  Can we really discuss such issues based on 'what we heard ' ?.  One important issue about any discussion is getting the facts in order .

 

But lets move on, yes, this technique is common in many earth quake areas , even with wood . The Chinese and Japanese invented interesting techniques with layers of branching out wood beams for the roof , like a puzzle . The posts dont even go into the ground , nor are secured .  As a part time builder I was gob smacked when I first saw that . But if you put one of these structures on an earth quake machine tester , they are phenomenal . One test I saw , the building lasted longer than the machine - some tiles fell off the roof , some light pieces of wood broke off, one pole base moved off its flat stone base support , another was half way off and that was it.

 

Flex like the willow in the storm .... it seems 'Daoistic'  .

 

I think we all have to agree the many of ancients where highly clever smart and intelligent .

 

 

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

No modern society on planet Earth, even today, build without mortar (to my knowledge).

 

I am supposing you means something other than what you wrote here .  We have dry stone walls all around the place here . Even have a guy that specializes in making them .

 

When we are talking about monumental or  megalithic construction , the story changes , it has to do with a suite of things ; technology, method, size of block (all important)  - and the reasons for the size of blocks etc . etc . probably another separate thread  for in depth on this .

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Still to this day, even with laser precision equipment and cutting, we can't replicate the precision of the Macchu Picchu stone masons.

 

And you are sure about that ? Or is that what you heard ?  if you did 'hear it' source ?  lets actually measure those things , or go to valid studies where these things are measured .  Is it that we can not replicate it , impossible ... or is that we just do not do it , for a variety of reasons ?

 

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

What would your opinion be as to how they could do this back then? Something we can't even do with all of our advanced technology today.

 

I am not sure, but I have seen several methods which might have validity .  here is the thing , I watched a Maori guy carve a beautiful  complex detailed  pendant  out of jade with nothing but  cotton off a cotton reel.  No factory of western modern jeweler would do that today ... they COULD do it if shown how, but why ? Unless they where interested in that process and not  just making jewelry .

 

I also think the had more than one method , there are  some 'rope burn' channels on some of those blocks , a similar process to what that Maori guy used . Also there is some evidence of the 'dye lift and check' method .   Also a bit of ground and pound . I dont think there is any clear consensus on this though

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Further, the materials used for Macchu Picchu consists of tree, stone, rocks etc (different materials) that were all sourced on different sides of the mountains (e.g. some from the jungles, some from the low-lands etc etc, just far-away-places), and yet they were all transported to the top of the mountain to the site of Macchu Picchu. I've been told that even today with modern technology, this would be very difficult (if not impossible).

 

'Been told'   . But yeah it certainyl would not have been what I would call 'easy'   , it is clearly NOT impossible as they and people all over the place back then did things like that .... they moved a LOT of big rocks around all over the place - check out where the Stonehenge material came from . Also Easter Island  - HUGE carved statues  got moved over steep rocky terrain . How ... well the natives said the  priests made the statues  walk there . Academia's view ? Well ... okay, we will give that a try then :

 

 

 

 and that is probably not the only method they used for that either .

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

What's your take on how they got these materials up there?

 

We need to look at them specifically , the surrounds and material, their culture and history.  Some people dragged on sleds, some used rails and logs ( even in per dynastic Egypt ; see 'Merer's Boat ' ) . some used sand with a liquid poured on it , some used  rope pulling and leverage 

 

... and some used UFO powered levitation

 

 

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

So 2 questions about Macchu Picchu:
1) How could they cut with better precision than we do today?

 

First lets make sure that is a valid question , your question so you need to put up the proof of that question

 

( by the way I have had many a discussion here without defining these things first , if you want to see them there are all through the site )

 

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

2) How did they get big, heavy and diverse materials from different places up a mountain, which we struggle to do even today?

 

They struggles even more than we do today .

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

The reason for this question is:
1) I am curious about this in general, and looking for an explanation myself,
2) You've clearly employed the "simplest explanation is the most likely" for the other pyramid structures, so I'm interested to see where you will go with this one

 

Not really the simplest ... lets say the most direct reason.

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

 

Of course, my own perspective is related to what I wrote above, namely that there have been cultures on higher levels than our current culture, ergo they could do things we can't due to using, among other things, spiritual technology.

 

leaving aside the vagueness of ' higher level culture' ( since it is a  relative value judgement) I agree . Modern civ sucks ! so does modern tech ....

 

Thing is they where so much more 'smarter' than us they might not have even needed 'spiritual technology' ... thats a BIG HIT to the modern ego , so they must have had some secret ... alien help, magics ... 'spiritual technology ' ... cheaters !  because we all know we are so much more advanced and together than they where  ?  

 

I mean, back then they didnt even napalm ... let alone tactical nuclear weapons  !  ....  savages !

 

( thats sarcasm )

 

21 hours ago, Nuralshamal said:

Lastly, I would like your explanation for the Nazcar lines as well  also in Peru.
 

 

Too vague a question ,

 

Did you want to know HOW they where made , or for what purpose  or ... ?

[Nuralshamal]

@Nungali

Thanks for your message, I definitively feel a desire to dialogue from you now

I can also feel the "substance" behind your words and explanations, I can feel you're drawing on a mix of both study and experience (field work and of course life experiences). I enjoy this, as I feel it to substantiate what you say to a very large degree.

I am on the one hand somewhat surprised at how scientific your mindset is, thinking that we're on a qigong forum, but on the other hand I also really value that as a trait.

I agree that people investigating the ancients and their accomplishments, and at the slightest doubt about something always jump to the conclusion "aliens did it!" is indeed a thing something I find hysterical, and of course also can't take seriously.

I was looking up the stone masonry of Macchu Picchu online, and there are indeed scientists and builders marveling at it, yet they also offer what I deem to be credible explanations (which don't include aliens ).

It's clear that you personally are at peace with the scientific explanations you've found for the accomplisments of the ancients, so of course you don't feel a strong urge of curiousity about exploring other possible explanations. This is quite understable, seeing that it's been a life long interest and pursuit of yours, so you've already turned most stones (pun intended).

I personally feel my own "belief" to be true, as it tallies with my own life experience (what I told about evolving from 0 to 100, different levels of culture, global consciousness average etc). Of course you have only this small explanation about this evolutionary paradigm that I gave above, so you judge it based on how that small snippet tallies with your own life experience. Clearly you don't feel the explanatory power it has to be equal to or as strong as your current paradigm, and therefore no desire to explore it further. This is also quite understandable.

I would still urge you to check out the Nazca lines as it's quite fascinating.

The only thing I am still curious about is this final question:
1) What are the most mysterious or unexplainable things/facts/observations you've ever had in your life in your domain of anthropology? 



 

[Nungali]

I have already looked into Nazca lines. Recently a doco appeared with some recent interesting new research results about them .

 

1) .  The vast kaleidoscope of human expression in culture across time and locations .