Base as awareness, Watch the mind

[dwai]

As the process of abiding as awareness unfolds, one encounters following one of three conditions - 

 

1. actively abiding as awareness with no or negligible other contents of the mind. 
2. A apparent departure from condition 1, with a lot of contents of the mind. There seems to be an obfuscation of the “true nature” as one is caught up in the drama of samsara. 
3. Abiding as awareness but many thoughts and emotions flow naturally , with no attachment to them.

 

Condition 2 is remedied as soon as one recollects the fact that one is awareness in which dramas of samsara rise and fade away. Even the thought “I am no longer abiding as awareness” is a recognition of the Self as awareness, and realizing this gives one the freedom to be, without suffering from guilt or fears of “losing” condition 1. This realization and associated relaxation results in condition 3 naturally arising. It is that simple. 

 

Feel free to discuss  

[Boy]

Not much to discuss. All true 

[Lost in Translation]

On 12/27/2018 at 1:00 PM, dwai said:

As the process of abiding as awareness unfolds, one encounters following one of three conditions - 

 

1. actively abiding as awareness with no or negligible other contents of the mind. 
2. A apparent departure from condition 1, with a lot of contents of the mind. There seems to be an obfuscation of the “true nature” as one is caught up in the drama of samsara. 
3. Abiding as awareness but many thoughts and emotions flow naturally , with no attachment to them.

 

 

These all describe the same thing. It's like a car driving down the highway. The center of the lane is #1 or #3 whereas the lane dividers are #2. If one allows the car to drift towards the edge of the lane, the rumbling of the tires on the lane markers wakes one up and reminds one to return to the center. But one cannot drive in the same lane forever, and similarly one cannot maintain a pure awareness state forever. It's the nature of life.

[dwai]

On 12/30/2018 at 3:15 PM, Lost in Translation said:

 

 

These all describe the same thing. It's like a car driving down the highway. The center of the lane is #1 or #3 whereas the lane dividers are #2. If one allows the car to drift towards the edge of the lane, the rumbling of the tires on the lane markers wakes one up and reminds one to return to the center. But one cannot drive in the same lane forever, and similarly one cannot maintain a pure awareness state forever. It's the nature of life.

Isn't pure awareness always there? Only thing that changes is whether there are thoughts or no thoughts in it.

[Lost in Translation]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Isn't pure awareness always there? Only thing that changes is whether there are thoughts or no thoughts in it.

 

Most people think of a kind of conscious flow-state when they mention pure awareness, but you are correct. Pure awareness is technically always there.

[Zen Pig]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Isn't pure awareness always there? Only thing that changes is whether there are thoughts or no thoughts in it.

How can thoughts be separate from pure awareness? if thoughts change, then where do thoughts come from, ?  from outside awareness? then how do they arise?  From my experience, I had to see that it all merge's.  thoughts , awareness, everything. thoughts are awareness, not good, not bad, my body is awareness,  my stubbed toe in the middle of the night, and cussing out the dog is awareness.  to be inclusive of all that is.  takes the so-called good and the bad as being this kind of dance.  my favorite quote form someone I don't know goes like this.  "when skating on thin ice, you may as well dance"  Happy New Year!

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

How can thoughts be separate from pure awareness? if thoughts change, then where do thoughts come from, ?  from outside awareness? then how do they arise?  From my experience, I had to see that it all merge's.  thoughts , awareness, everything. thoughts are awareness, not good, not bad, my body is awareness,  my stubbed toe in the middle of the night, and cussing out the dog is awareness.  to be inclusive of all that is.  takes the so-called good and the bad as being this kind of dance.  my favorite quote form someone I don't know goes like this.  "when skating on thin ice, you may as well dance"  Happy New Year!

Happy new year  

we are in agreement 🤗

[maheosphet]

My spirit (ME) still tends to own aspect of this body, especially the energy centers. Wouldn't want any strays to get the wrong idea.

 

How would you convey such an idea without self, without endless tediousness, especially once you rid yourself of anything to own or any owner to own?

 

Let's say just for instance; you are abiding in pure awareness and I come along and just take your soul/spirit, who or what is going to stop me? (hypothetically of course)

Edited January 1, 2019 by maheosphet

[Fa Xin]

2 hours ago, maheosphet said:

My spirit (ME) still tends to own aspect of this body, especially the energy centers. Wouldn't want any strays to get the wrong idea.

 

How would you convey such an idea without self, without endless tediousness, especially once you rid yourself of anything to own or any owner to own?

 

Let's say just for instance; you are abiding in pure awareness and I come along and just take your soul/spirit, who or what is going to stop me? (hypothetically of course)

 

Hypothetically, I think it's saying the soul/spirit *IS* the awareness.  There's no separation, as these ideas transcend that (you and I are not separate, therefor, what are you going to steal?)

 

If you believe there's an individual soul, and that soul is able to be stolen... I'm not saying your right or wrong ... but it would conflict with the whole view that dwai is talking about.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Fa Xin

[maheosphet]

What about the energy centers residing in your body? Are those belonging to that body? Or to that awareness? 

 

What about the gray matter in your brain? Is that yours?

Edited January 1, 2019 by maheosphet

[dwai]

3 hours ago, maheosphet said:

What about the energy centers residing in your body? Are those belonging to that body? Or to that awareness? 

 

What about the gray matter in your brain? Is that yours?

They all belong to you but are not you  

You are forever free and blissful...

 

[3bob]

18 hours ago, Zen Pig said:

How can thoughts be separate from pure awareness? if thoughts change, then where do thoughts come from, ?  from outside awareness? then how do they arise?  From my experience, I had to see that it all merge's.  thoughts , awareness, everything. thoughts are awareness, not good, not bad, my body is awareness,  my stubbed toe in the middle of the night, and cussing out the dog is awareness.  to be inclusive of all that is.  takes the so-called good and the bad as being this kind of dance.  my favorite quote form someone I don't know goes like this.  "when skating on thin ice, you may as well dance"  Happy New Year!

 

Rhetorically speaking: how can the "One" be born of the Tao that can not really be named...?   Also if the Great Tao is not  the "One" yet not separate then what the hell? 

[maheosphet]

On 12/27/2018 at 3:00 PM, dwai said:

As the process of abiding as awareness unfolds, one encounters following one of three conditions - 

 

1. actively abiding as awareness with no or negligible other contents of the mind. 
2. A apparent departure from condition 1, with a lot of contents of the mind. There seems to be an obfuscation of the “true nature” as one is caught up in the drama of samsara. 
3. Abiding as awareness but many thoughts and emotions flow naturally , with no attachment to them.

 

Condition 2 is remedied as soon as one recollects the fact that one is awareness in which dramas of samsara rise and fade away. Even the thought “I am no longer abiding as awareness” is a recognition of the Self as awareness, and realizing this gives one the freedom to be, without suffering from guilt or fears of “losing” condition 1. This realization and associated relaxation results in condition 3 naturally arising. It is that simple. 

 

Feel free to discuss  

 

With the Idea of ownership, which includes an owner (self) and something that is being owned (not self), I would argue that you could not own anything. Otherwise you are just using verbal gymnastics and replacing the word self with awareness, without anything really changing. Anatta means (non self) in which there can be no owner.

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, maheosphet said:

 

With the Idea of ownership, which includes an owner (self) and something that is being owned (not self), I would argue that you could not own anything. Otherwise you are just using verbal gymnastics and replacing the word self with awareness, without anything really changing. Anatta means (non self) in which there can be no owner.

 that which knows the not-self is the Self 

[Frederic]

What a wonderful discussion on the Daobums! A lot of practitioners here hunt for the mystical experience of enlightenment, but not often I see I expressed that the entire search and every possible mystical experience always happen in that which is already enlightened and is always there. Nowhere to go, nothing to achieve, perfectly at peace.

 

I always thought that there is no practice that can lead to this understanding, since any practice creates the illusion that there is a you that needs to go somewhere via the path of practice. While in my experience all that needed is investigation into what is here right now. What is always here, never changes, needs nothing? What am I?

 

It can begin to dawn that that awareness or whatever we call it, is actually what we are. And that enlightenment and everyday awareness are no different. That realisation is not done by the person, it is waking up beyond the person.

 

But I'm meeting more and more people who graciously discover this through a practice, and I'm intrigued! There is hope for these arts?

[Zen Pig]

On 1/1/2019 at 7:05 AM, maheosphet said:

What about the energy centers residing in your body? Are those belonging to that body? Or to that awareness? 

 

What about the gray matter in your brain? Is that yours?

My personal take on this, (and of course I can be full of shit),  goes back to the old idea that our "self" is like the wave in the ocean.  I am the wave, riding into the shore, folks surf on me and I make life more exciting, whether for good or bad. But i am also, at the very same time the ocean. Not separate, but at the same time unique.  no other wave is like me in that instant.   To become nihilistic and say that "you are only the ocean, your wave-ness is only an illusion  ", while being true, is also not true at the same time.  we humans have a tough  time wrapping our heads around paradox.  we were raised to believe in the Boolean  Logic of our culture. Yes or No.  True or False.  as far as I have seen nature doesn't give a fuck about our kind of logic.  LOL

[rideforever]

Thoughts emotions come from inside, from parts of us that are subconscious, therefore they feel outside and become corrupted with the outside's influence.   But one day you must make them conscious.

First Awareness is awakened then at least one thing is awake.

Then the centres of thoughts and emotions can be awakened also and you take ownership of them.
And all merges together.

 

You will not awaken the centres of thoughts/emotions if you tell yourself to ignore them or that they are samsara ... that is just rationalisation.   You could say that all my suffering is samsara and kill yourself, but at least you are smart enough to not do that.  So be smart again and realise that everything that you experience comes from a part of you and awaken all parts and take ownership of all that arises.

Edited January 3, 2019 by rideforever

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Frederic said:

What a wonderful discussion on the Daobums! A lot of practitioners here hunt for the mystical experience of enlightenment, but not often I see I expressed that the entire search and every possible mystical experience always happen in that which is already enlightened and is always there. Nowhere to go, nothing to achieve, perfectly at peace.

 

I always thought that there is no practice that can lead to this understanding, since any practice creates the illusion that there is a you that needs to go somewhere via the path of practice. While in my experience all that needed is investigation into what is here right now. What is always here, never changes, needs nothing? What am I?

 

It can begin to dawn that that awareness or whatever we call it, is actually what we are. And that enlightenment and everyday awareness are no different. That realisation is not done by the person, it is waking up beyond the person.

 

But I'm meeting more and more people who graciously discover this through a practice, and I'm intrigued! There is hope for these arts?

Welcome to the discussion

Of course many practices can lead to this. But practice unfortunately is not enough. In my experience, people can have direct experience of the "truth" in a flash, but without proper knowledge, they can keep falling in and out of the abidance, like a pendulum swinging back and forth. In the indic traditions, there are terms for this (direct knowing vs intellectual knowledge) -- paurusha jnana and bauddha jnana. Paurusha jnana is the practical direct experiential knowing and Bauddha jnana is the "knowledge" part of knowing. In order to complete the liberation from the individual personality and mind, both are required.

 

Only the direct experiential knowing cannot fully liberate while alive because the knowledge part of it is needed to have the intellect cooperate. There are a lot of misconceptions vis-a-vis the ego. The ego is not a real entity, it is just a process and it never fully goes away. Only the identification with and as it ceases after awakening. The Bauddha jnana does the work of satisfying the intellect and ensuring complete subordination of the ego to the awareness. 

Only the bauddha jnana (or knowledge part) will not do the trick either. Without direct experiential knowing, it will only excite the intellect. That's why we find a lot of seekers who only read/study scripture constantly torn between acceptance and skepticism or remaining stuck in their addiction for scriptural knowledge (called shastra vāsanā). For that reason, Bauddha jnana needs a vehicle of delivery, which is a practice-based approach where the mind is stilled. In as much as understanding the "essence" of the knowledge part is concerned, without a still mind, it is very hard (I would venture to say, impossible) to grasp it. 

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by dwai
typo correction

[Spotless]

Ego ceases to be ego as it moves to creation - spontaneous individuation in unity.

 

Ego becomes pure emotion in unity.

[3bob]

ego goes poof, before the truth.

[johndoe2012]

17 hours ago, dwai said:

Welcome to the discussion

Of course many practices can lead to this. But practice unfortunately is not enough. In my experience, people can have direct experience of the "truth" in a flash, but without proper knowledge, they can keep falling in and out of the abidance, like a pendulum swinging back and forth.

 

I know what you mean, eg when talk gets filtered by the ego or when people are stuck in their issues if we look relatively, but in dzogchen everything is an appearance of one's own nature so nobody to abide or not abide.

 

The first part requires someone to abide, the second requires no transformation.

[dwai]

6 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

I know what you mean, eg when talk gets filtered by the ego or when people are stuck in their issues if we look relatively, but in dzogchen everything is an appearance of one's own nature so nobody to abide or not abide.

 

The first part requires someone to abide, the second requires no transformation.

Yes indeed. The second is a progression from the first (as I've seen in my case and with some of my friends). If you look at the OP,  that is the 3rd point I made. 

[Spotless]

Abdominal breathing regularly is a tremendous asset to abidance.

 

From Awakening there is great unfolding in store.

 

Abdominal breathing helps to burn up residual habits of tension. It is the natural capacity of this area.

 

It takes time for the head, heart and gut to become open and settled and the expansion is very far beyond words.

 

Six plus years into this and it has not ceased - the energies and massive sustained changes occur weekly.

 

It has not been a cake walk but it has not been visited by anxiousness or redress either.

(Suffering ended with Awakening and that has had no swing of the pendulum).

 

It becomes more exquisite in each moment. Everything has once again changed in the last few weeks yet the stillness has only deepened - ever present.

 

There are traditions that say upon Awakening one should not teach for ten years - it is at least an idea of how far from Awakening Enlightenment might be considered.

 

The gut is essential to a most profound trio. Head and heart are no more important than gut. 

 

But there is far more beyond this.

At a certain point abidance ceases in the pendulum - it does not move.

 

It is incredibly visceral - but of an energy far more rigorous than the physical bodies.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Spotless

[Still_Waters]

On 12/27/2018 at 4:00 PM, dwai said:

As the process of abiding as awareness unfolds, one encounters following one of three conditions - 

 

1. actively abiding as awareness with no or negligible other contents of the mind. 
2. A apparent departure from condition 1, with a lot of contents of the mind. There seems to be an obfuscation of the “true nature” as one is caught up in the drama of samsara. 
3. Abiding as awareness but many thoughts and emotions flow naturally , with no attachment to them.

 

Condition 2 is remedied as soon as one recollects the fact that one is awareness in which dramas of samsara rise and fade away. Even the thought “I am no longer abiding as awareness” is a recognition of the Self as awareness, and realizing this gives one the freedom to be, without suffering from guilt or fears of “losing” condition 1. This realization and associated relaxation results in condition 3 naturally arising. It is that simple. 

 

Feel free to discuss  

Which of the three conditions applies most to you, or does that fluctuate ?

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Still_Waters said:

Which of the three conditions applies most to you, or does that fluctuate ?

The past several months it has been condition 3