Going to China, Question to Dao Zhen

[Pietro]

Hello Dao Zhen,

nice to have you on the board.

 

I was reading some of your posts, and looking at the wonderful pictures you posted in the gallery.

 

I was thinking that there is probably a number of people in this board would would be VERY eager to go to China, for a period to study Daoism. We have had many people advertising courses, and workshop. But if a person was interested to go to China and study with Daoist priests for a prolonged period, this was hardly a possibility.

Also here and there there are a number of teachers who go to China, and then make some places available for whoever is interested to go with them. Those are generally very interesting, but my sensation is that they lack the flexibility, and freedom that come from travelling alone. If you meet a very good teacher, and you just fall in love with a place and wish to stay there for more time, it is just not that easy. But you can go, stay with them a couple of month weeks (LATE EDIT), learn a tai ji form here, some qi gung there, and generally go back home with some great memories. This is not what I am looking for or asking about. I am speaking about the possibility for a person to go to China, maybe be officially initiated into Daoism, live over there for a period, and integrate this part of their life more fully in their livestyle. Do you think this would be possible? How?

 

I know in the past, for example, it was not possible for a foreigner to go and join a Daoist monastery. Things have probably moved quite a bit from then.

 

And if someone was interested, and the daoists where from their side interested or willing to have foreigner coming over, there would still be a number of small practical details that would need to be sorted.

 

So I would like to know, can you give us some sort of description of what the current situation in China is. Presumebly one cannot just come and join a Daoist monastery for as long as they like? So what would the requirements be? Do foreigners (from USA and Europe, for example, but also from other countries) have to have a Visa to enter China? How long are those Visa issued for? Are chinese people happy to have foreigners studying with them? I suppose a person would have to know how to speak Chinese before going there, right? Would it be possible for someone who plans to stay for "just" a few months to have his personal interpreter or would this be considered offensive?

 

Looking forward to hear your answer,

Pietro

 

P.S. and yes, I am also asking for myself, as my latest emplyment is ending pretty soon, and after that I am looking for some time off to take some decisions.

Edited February 12, 2008 by Pietro

[gendao]

Good questions. I'm guessing the language barrier is going to be the biggest hurdle for any foreigner...as most Chinese don't speak any English. Especially the older crowd.

 

Then again, they might just have a beginner do basic stuff like lotus meditation that does not require much explanation.

 

And yes, you do need a visa. There's different types offered depending upon your purpose and duration of stay. Basically, if you are planning on staying a month or less - an L tourist visa is easy to get and sufficient. But I believe for longer stays, you may need an F or X visa with some sort of invitation letter.

[dao zhen]

Thank you for the letter.

 

I am going to be hopefully posting some interviews with a senior Taoist who is my friend here, and it may answer a lot of questions.

 

There is currently a person from Mexico living in Purple Heaven Palace on Wudang and studying there.

 

He was given a letter of invitation by a person who was a former student there.

 

I know he has had trouble with his visa, and the like.

 

China is in a major state of change right now, and change is happening very fast.

 

So it is hard to say what things are, as they can change month to month.

 

You may generally stay here for one year and extend the visa, and after one year, you have to exit.

 

Most people who stay here, will go to Hong Kong, and then renew the visa, and the process begins again.

 

I like this company Visa Rite to gain a China Visa

 

I think the most important thing here is to have money to support your travel, your study, and then to have even a little more money just in case there is an emergency.

 

There is a decline in Taoism generally in China.

 

Yes, sad but true.

 

So a lot of temples may not be what you are dreaming of, and the Taoists in the termples may not be what you are dreaming of.

 

To find the goods, you have to dig, search and pray a lot.

 

If you are lucky, you may find a real teacher.

 

Truly to find an authentic teacher is a gift from Heaven.

 

There are some groups that sponsor trips and tours to china for Qigong and Taoism study, and if you do a google search for Taoist Study in China you may find some various groups that offer such trips.

 

Some are good, some not.

 

If you are on your own, the problem is to gain introduction to a teacher.

 

If you do not speak any Chinese, it is very difficult; almost no one speaks English except young college students.

 

If you are very serious to come to China, let me know and I may be able to offer more advise.

 

I have an Taoist Elder brother who is a Dragon Gate Taoist, who is opening a public training school in Beiing and students will be able to live there and receive training in Calligraphy, Tai Chi, Guqin, Taoist Meditation and the like.

 

We have a nice space, and will be knocking out walls, and making it in the fashion of a Qing Dynasty house.

 

He is a real sincere Taoist, and wishes to spread Tao - see my photo gallery for pictures of him - Teacher Shao Tianze.

 

When it is finished, I will let people know here - now it is too cold to work.

 

I also am friends with a man on QingCheng Shan who will allow people to live in the small temple he manages - actually they rent rooms to earn money - but it is a good environment, and if living there, you may slowly meet the local Taoists, and slowly learn.

 

Generally the rooms will be 135 RMB per day and this includes 3 meals - maybe if you stay long term he would of course make a deal - you can ask for discounts in China, as it is the custom.

 

It takes time, and nothing happens quickly.

 

I think with China, you have to have some karma here.

 

I have heard amazing stories from people, and then really terrible stories.

 

So a lot will depend on your own personal luck and destiny.

 

Knowing someone who can introduce you is a real help, and is actually part of the Taoist custom.

 

I hope this helps, and does not paint a bleak picture.

 

If I am not working, or busy, I am happy to travel and show you around, but from June - October I am usually busy.

 

From 2009, I am leaving and will be unavailable for contact.

 

It is my wish to share my experience, which is why these next two weeks I plan to post many things here in Tao Bums for all members to enjoy.

 

When they can understand some reality of China, they may make good choices.

 

With all of my best wishes for your luck.

 

Sincerely, dao zhen

[Pietro]

Dear Dao Zhen,

thanks for your answer.

 

I absolutely agree that karma and luck are among the most important element to meet good teachers. I also would add an ability to feel when someone has something to teach you. This single feeling has guided most of my spiritual life, and is still guiding me today.

 

My request, as said, where for two reasons. The first was to look for a possibility for me to travel to mainland China. The second because I think other people would be interested as well, and I think it would be good to settle some sort of agreement where if someone from the Tao Bums would wish to go to China, he would know where to go to, how to get the documents, and where to sleep and eat. Maybe also where to find a translator, or where to study Chinese. I am not investigating for more, because, as you said, it is then the individual karma that will let some people meet good teachers, and some others just have a good turistic trip.

 

The information on the Visa's where very good (thanks also to Vortex). Unfortunately I am from Europe, so for me I cannot use Visa Rite. But I am sure, if necessary, I will find an equivalent service for Europeans. By now EU is bigger than USA, and as such the market rules will do all is necessary not to lose this opportunity.

 

Personally I would be interested to go to Wudan mountain, and not that interested to go to Beijing. I don't like big cities, and my single interest right now would be to just go to some secluded spot to do some practice. If I don't meet anyone is not going to be a problem. I am sorry to hear that Daoism is declining, but not that worried. There has been many times in History when Daoism seemed to disappear. I am quite hopeful that the far away, remore regions will hold the memory of it, and bring it back when the times are more prone to it.

 

Please feel free to add anything that might help other Tao Bums that might be interested to go to China. For me I will contact you if I feel is the right time for me to come to China.

 

Also it might be helpful, if it is not asking too much, if you were to write a small article on how did you got there. Which steps where necessary. How did you find yourself. All this will be very valuable for people wishing to travel to Daoist places in China, and very interesting for the others.

 

 

Best of luck with your practice,

and with your projects of the new school.

 

Pietro

[gendao]

The information on the Visa's where very good (thanks also to Vortex). Unfortunately I am from Europe, so for me I cannot use Visa Rite. But I am sure, if necessary, I will find an equivalent service for Europeans. By now EU is bigger than USA, and as such the market rules will do all is necessary not to lose this opportunity.

I don't think you have to go through a company to get a visa - they are more just for information on them. Just go to your nearest Chinese embassy.

[dao zhen]

Dear Dao Zhen,

thanks for your answer.

 

I absolutely agree that karma and luck are among the most important element to meet good teachers. I also would add an ability to feel when someone has something to teach you. This single feeling has guided most of my spiritual life, and is still guiding me today.

 

My request, as said, where for two reasons. The first was to look for a possibility for me to travel to mainland China. The second because I think other people would be interested as well, and I think it would be good to settle some sort of agreement where if someone from the Tao Bums would wish to go to China, he would know where to go to, how to get the documents, and where to sleep and eat.

 

Also it might be helpful, if it is not asking too much, if you were to write a small article on how did you got there. Which steps where necessary. How did you find yourself. All this will be very valuable for people wishing to travel to Daoist places in China, and very interesting for the others.

Best of luck with your practice,

and with your projects of the new school.

 

Pietro

 

Thank you for your letter.

 

In Wudang there are public academy here for study, and later I can post some photos of the schools.

 

But the training is in Taoist Kung Fu, and it is very physical.

 

Like Shaolin, but with long hair, and some focus on internal, etc.

 

I have had some dealings here in the tourism industry, and also have worked to sponsor intensive Taoist Qigong and Alchemy workshops with teachers in China over the last period of five years.

 

From 2009, I will no longer do this work, and my Taoist Brother will continue to offer such service to students.

 

I will focus on practice and there are a list of book projects I am working on with my teacher.

 

I am thinking to perhaps see if we can sponsor a Tao Bum to come in June to take part in this training, and then give a report back to the group on what they learned and how the experience was.

 

To give a view of training in China.

 

This will take part in a temple in the mountains, and will be a very amazing experience.

 

I am not sure how to go about this, and have contacted Sean to see his ideas.

 

~ THIS IS JUST AN IDEA AT THIS POINT ~

 

That is a good idea to write a paper with general information, but like I said China is changing so fast.

 

I was gone from Beijing for 3 months and went back , and a whole street was torn up and all the cheap hotels gone......

 

Really, the main point is money.

 

You will need money for hotel, trains, travel.

 

If you have money to support yourself, and a spirit of adventure - it is pretty easy.

 

I think what may be more important would be to list teachers, temples, qigong centers and the like.

 

This is hard to find information.

 

When I first came to China, I had been studying acupuncture in Tokyo, Japan, as well as Medical Qigong (Japan has more Qigong healing centers and more research than anywhere on Earth, more than China), many high level Qigong masters from China move there, as they can make a very good living.

 

I was finishing up my acupuncture program there, and had just finished an intensive one to one year long training with a Qigong Master and had made up my mind to go and seek a teacher in China.

 

The Qigong Master there told me we were finished, and gave me permission to teach his system, and said to come and visit him in 5 years.

 

(this qigong teacher was amazing, and could light up the whole room with light he emited from his palms and eys, and could also emit flower fragrance when we practiced, and do the electric shock from his sword finger to treat serious illness like liver disease, etc)

 

I went the day before my plane was going to depart and prayed at a Buddhist temple.

 

The temple interior had a lot of statues and beautiful sacred objects.....

 

I found a small Taoist altar to Chan San Feng, the founder of Tai Chi from Wudang...

 

I was confused, as this was Japan, and a Buddhist temple.........

 

The abbot came over, and looked at me, and I looked at him...........

 

He said, do you know who that is.......

 

Yeah! That is Chan San Feng........founder of Tai Chi...

 

He said do you do Tai chi..........?

 

We ended up playing for many hours, and he was very high level.

 

I told him I was leaving for China to seek a master.

 

He said I should go and meet his master.

 

The master turned out to be one of the most famous Qigong and Internal Martial Artists in all of China at that time - very famous senior master - he recently passed away a few years ago and many Tai Chi & Qi related magazines ran stories on him.

 

I studied with him and then did study in a Qigong hospital and then wandered around in Lao Shan moutains for two weeks meeting interesting characters...........

 

That was my first trip, and so far China has really opened up to me, and I seem to have some destiny here.

 

I will post a letter with information about studying in China later after I finish the other work here such as interviews and the like.

 

Thank you for your interest, and I am sincere when I say you are welcome to come here and I will show you around.

 

With all of my best.

 

Sincerely, dao zhen

[Mal]

[Adam West]

Hey guys,

 

In my wandering in cyberspace, I came across Jesse's commercial website answering Pietro's very question. Jesse stated he would not post anything commercial or promote this part of his work in any manner, however, since there is a sincere and independent inquiry and need for information on how a genuine Taoist aspirant may get a foothold into China and authentic Taoist training, this would seem to be one of the best opportunities to that end.

 

http://eternalspringtours.com/html/2008-tours-in-china.html

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[三江源]

Pietro, are you a member of the Bristish Taoist Association?

 

They have some firm links with Daoist Monks and Temples in China.

 

 

They have worked to help renovate a temple.

 

They may be able to help.

[dao zhen]

Hey guys,

 

In my wandering in cyberspace, I came across Jesse's commercial website answering Pietro's very question. Jesse stated he would not post anything commercial or promote this part of his work in any manner, however, since there is a sincere and independent inquiry and need for information on how a genuine Taoist aspirant may get a foothold into China and authentic Taoist training, this would seem to be one of the best opportunities to that end.

 

http://eternalspringtours.com/html/2008-tours-in-china.html

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

 

Thank you for your interest and support Adam.

 

The above project has been a five year undertaking, and started with my sincere wish to share the experiences I have had in China with others.

 

Currently I am going to pass this project on to my Wudang brother - David - Da Wei - 16th Generation Disciple of Wudang San Feng Pai - Daoist Name - Zi Rong - Dao Ren - Wayfarer of Endless Capacity -

 

Tomorrow we will take pictures together in Purple Heaven Palace and we will post these to the about us page on the website to reflect his taking over of the project.

 

These workshops in June and September will be the last I will sponsor personally.

 

Both the June and September sessions are almost full now.

 

We currently have the idea to sponsor one Tao Bum member for our June session.

 

This would include all expense in China including the cost of the workshop.

 

We would ask that they would take notes and concentrate on the course,

and report their experience and what they learn.

 

This is just an idea, but we are very open to providing this experience.

 

I am currently going to talk to Sean of Tao Bums and seek his approval.

 

I would like to not discuss these things here please right now.

 

I would like to currently keep our focus on providing questions for my effort to place an interview

here for Tao Bum members with Taoists in China.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Sincerely, dao zhen

[dao zhen]

Dear friends.

 

I had a great day today with my Tao Brother Zi Rong.

 

We spent the day hiking in Wudang, praying and meditating in Purple Heaven Palace, and hiked up to the Xuan Wu Cave to visit the hermit there.

 

Here are some pictures of Zi Rong and myself from today below.

 

On another note.

 

We are going to try and sponsor one Tao Bum to come to China in June to take part in an intensive 17 day training in Authentic Taoist Alchemy Practice.

 

This will include all costs in China, but not the cost of airfare to china or the visa fee; they may need a little personal money to buy water, or some gifts.

 

We would like to have three Tao Bum members in good standing who are respected to form a "Board of 3" to choose one member - I will not be choosing.

 

I propose the member will need to have some basic experiene in seated meditation practice, but they do not need to be any sort of expert, just willing to come and learn sincerely.

 

A very sincere complete novice is fine also.

 

The member should also commit to the following -

 

1. To follow the guidelines we set for them in regards to lifestyle 3 months before coming to China.

2. To practice and follow the course training in China.

3. To take very extensive notes on all theory and practice methods taught; with the aim to teach them to others.

4. To have a good attitude, be sincere and have fun during the trip.

5. To commit to coming back and teaching what they have learned to at least 5 people - free of cost - I hope other Tao Bums - this should include all practice methods and theory. They will need to be able to organize a mini retreat of at least 9 - 14 days with these 5 new students and pass on what they have learned, same as it was taught in China - this condition does not have to be followed through if the tao bum member thinks the methods are not good, or false.

 

I will post an new page in the forum to get this started, but if you guys can help and start thinking who will be on the "Board of Three".

 

I hope this is of interest to the members, and we can get this project started.

 

I hope to have our member picked for China by March 1, and we can begin to prepare them with the lifestyle guidelines - such guidance and teachings will be done via email.

 

Enjoy the pictures below from today.

 

The other person in the pictues is my younger Taoist Brother -

 

Zi Rong Dao Ren - Wayfarer of Endless Capacity

 

With much love, dao zhen

 

This is Zi Rong and Dao Zhen at Purple Heaven Palace

 

 

This is a close up of the above picture at Purple Heaven Palace

 

 

Zi Rong Dao Ren - Wayfarer of Endless Capacity

 

 

Dao Zhen Dao Ren - Wayfarer of True Way

[Yoda]

Dao Zhen, fantastic offer, thank you!

 

Pietro, I think your initiating this thread is a sign that you are the appropriate one to go.

 

Yours,

Yoda

[mantis]

wow going to china to study authentic taoism, a spiritual dream

[Oolong Rabbit]

This is very gracious of you Dao Zhen. I would like to nominate Matt Wight to be the taobum sponsor. I don't know him personally, but based on what he has written, he seems like a very sincere seeker. He apparently has no ties, and seems very dedicated to practice. Second and third nominations would be for MatthewQi and Darin Hamel. These guys are a little older, but a perhaps little wiser. I would hold whatever they said in high esteem. I based Matt as my first choice also partially on financial need as well.

 

For the board of three I would opt for Lin Aiwei, thelearner (Michael), and Adam West

 

There are others, but these are the first people that came to mind. I also think we taobums could maybe chip in a bit to sponsor the candidate as well.

 

Brgds!

 

 

wow going to china to study authentic taoism, a spiritual wet dream haha

 

Mantis,

 

You were up there on my list as well (for reasons similar to Matt's), but I felt you were still a bit on the young side.

[mantis]

haha oolong, thanks!

 

personally, i don't think anyone on this website is unqualified to go, it's just a matter of who is really willing to take on the responsibility. there is a lot being asked but so much more being given, i don't think it's possible to thank dao zhen enough. something to keep in mind as well is that the teaching will spread to an additional 5 more taobum members, this is exciting haha!

[dunbar]

hi dao zhen,

 

i understand you run a tour company/taoist school or something to that effect... can we see your website and how much you charge for instruction? some of us might just pop over and take a class or attend without having to be voted on by our peers.

 

maybe we could learn a little about the master teaching you and what his qualifications are and what he charges as well. would be nice to know what drew you to him. lot's of folks in wudangshan claiming to be this and that, so it would be cool to see a sort of resume...

 

thanks

[Adam West]

[Buddy]

Ah, the next one in line. This guy thinks that Kwan Saihung is real. OMG please don't be spiritual tourists. You guys are already for the next guru de jour.

[Procurator]

Ah, the next one in line. This guy thinks that Kwan Saihung is real.

he he, Kwan is one of those insider jokes that never grow old.

[林愛偉]

he he, Kwan is one of those insider jokes that never grow old.

 

 

Last time I heard, Kwan Sai Hung was in upstate New York.

[dao zhen]

[satyagraha]

Last time I heard, Kwan Sai Hung was in upstate New York.

will someone let me in on this joke? a parody on everyones search for the ultimate guru?

[Oolong Rabbit]

Dao Zhen,

 

Don't let a few rotten apples push you away. Most of us appreciate your pressence and contributions immensely. This board needs more contributors like you.

[Starjumper]

Dear Friends.

 

I wish you all the best.

 

I hope all who read this are in fine spirits and in good health.

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

I have seen many negative posts actually in relation to my offer here, and in some other areas on the board.

 

It is a little disheartening, as I have only tried to be honest and share with the members here.

 

I will not post on Tao Bums any more from now.

 

Edited February 15, 2008 by Starjumper7

[宁]

this happens when martial artists and neikung aprentices come together. remember each of them has an entirely different attitude: martial arts are more direct, more frank to the point of rudeneness.

 

if you pick up the challenge and fight, and do a good fight, you will earn their respect. if you start whining and go "i was a nice guy and look what happened.." you will just make them more angry. and they will despize you. remember neikung and martial arts went along pretty well in taoist history, and both attitudes are two sides of the coin, eventually you will need to come to the "golden means" with this too.

 

many of your pictures and posts helped me, and i think they help other people, BUT dont mind if they didnt have the effect you expected. everyone takes what they need.

your attitude and energy shows that your qi is still up in the chest area, you need to work more to bring it down to the navel. then all these arguments will not stand in your way. please take this friendly, i know we are all men and have our egos to protect, but i mean you no disrespect.

 

regarding kwan saihung, ive addopted a saying from ninpo training: take something good out of everything.

 

this is in response to your wish to go ahead with the interview

 

cheer up dao zhen