The Complete System

[beachbum78]

15 hours ago, Stosh said:

There is only so much to learn from the examples of others , what is written in the classics , or even from a living teacher. Right? 

So , at some point , when one feels that they have the basic plan under their belt , they then need to apply it in the complex real-time world. 

 

One can try to master the entire world , to know the perfect response for every situation , and so forth... (but because none of us see the future completely and in detail ,, the right thing to do is often a thing we must guess at).   

 

That's why Tao is called or described as an ally , its not the be-all end all answer to- Life , the Universe and everything.

It doesn't make one infallible or perfect - but the understanding of it should enlighten one to the fact that there is no perfection other than to say things are already what they are and are not deficient or imperfect, since that is a subjective judgement ( that implies expectations of what, rightfully, things should be ,,and are not) . 

 

So there is no 'whole system' which includes all the applications , but there IS a 'whole system'  in that all the hints given ,can add up , to all the hints garnered. 

IMO

 

Kind of airy fairy an not really how things work. In the real world you learn apply, graduate, then start your own practice.

 

Its like saying oh I took one law class and now im  a lawyer forget the bar exam or court room exp or a college degree...

 

The real problem with taoist practitioners is that most never graduate then an branch off put a mix of all they learned an then label it a full system to the point the chikung scene is filled with a bunch of failed students posing as masters. It happened in kung fu first then chikung.

Edited January 15, 2019 by beachbum78

[Zen Pig]

On 1/13/2019 at 10:19 AM, wandelaar said:

That's impossible. With an empty cup there would no longer be a reason to prefer one teacher to another, or to no teacher at all.

you do know what a metaphor is?  

From my experience in MA,  when I start to learn a new system.  I don't go to the sensei or sufu,  and try to show them "how it is done", or what my experience is, or how i would do a technique., (my cup is full of my own self ego), But  I "empty my cup", and know that I just want to learn there system.  so I learn it,  but that does not mean, that once I see and learn what they are teaching that I don't see things I would not do, or attempt,  but at some point the new system , and what I have learned in the past kind of merge, work out,  and I walk away having learned a new way to look at life, MA , techniques.  I don't go into a new system being a brainless twit,  but rather, just with an open, learning inquiring mind. 

Easy Peasy Leon Squezy. 

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, beachbum78 said:

 

Kind of airy fairy an not really how things work. In the real world you learn apply, graduate, then start your own practice.

 

Its like saying oh I took one law class and now im  a lawyer forget the bar exam or court room exp or a college degree...

 

The real problem with taoist practitioners is that most never graduate then an branch off put a mix of all they learned an then label it a full system to the point the chikung scene is filled with a bunch of failed students posing as masters. It happened in kung fu first then chikung.

Airy-Fairy? No.

You must think that someone else is to be your judge , pat you on the back , endorse the label of graduation, give you a piece of paper. 

Maybe you get a hat or a badge ? That the decider guy , has to be someone else. OR,  that -that is the way it is in the "real world". 

 

But I don't doubt that there are posers , who , have a piece of paper , or credit themselves too much without it and so... can agree thus far. 

[OldDog]

18 hours ago, Stosh said:

... Tao is called or described as an ally , its not the be-all end all answer to- Life , the Universe and everything.

 

I have often considered that if one absorbs the lessons of Dao then one is in a better position to navigate the issues of living. One is less likely to make a hasty impatient ill-advised decission, less likely to act in unnecessary opposition and more likely to be in accord with the times.

 

A good ally, indeed! Nice thought. 

[Stosh]

For those of us who look at Daoism from a philosophical view , that

is the whole point of it all, just as you said.

Others do look on it -..otherwise though, as you already know.

[wandelaar]

3 hours ago, Zen Pig said:

you do know what a metaphor is?  

From my experience in MA,  when I start to learn a new system.  I don't go to the sensei or sufu,  and try to show them "how it is done", or what my experience is, or how i would do a technique., (my cup is full of my own self ego), But  I "empty my cup", and know that I just want to learn there system.  so I learn it,  but that does not mean, that once I see and learn what they are teaching that I don't see things I would not do, or attempt,  but at some point the new system , and what I have learned in the past kind of merge, work out,  and I walk away having learned a new way to look at life, MA , techniques.  I don't go into a new system being a brainless twit,  but rather, just with an open, learning inquiring mind. 

Easy Peasy Leon Squezy. 

 

That would be the case in the ideal world where one would have infinite time and energy at one's disposal. In actual practise one looks around during one's younger years and tries this and that, but as one grows older and acquires more experience and knowledge (and hopefully some wisdom) it becomes clear that time is running short and that one would do better to focus on the few practices that actually seem to work. And then one no longer bothers about all those other possible and impossible paths that are offered in the spiritual marketplace. So there is a purely practical limit to one's "open, learning inquiring mind".

 

At least that is the point that I think I have currently reached.

[OldDog]

12 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

So there is a purely practical limit to one's "open, learning inquiring mind".

 

That would be death .... either in a literal sense or a figurtive one. 

 

One can always learn something new. Even within a so called complete system there are alwys dimensions to be explored. And ... if you have the good forture to have learned from multiple teachers ... you do, as ZP suggests begin to synthesize. This is true whether we are talking about martial arts, philosophy or how to tie your shoes.

 

I have yet to run across a teacher that does not understand this. Like my teacher once told me ... a good form always has room fora little improvement.

[Zen Pig]

12 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

it becomes clear that time is running short

short of what?

we are all going to die.

just like we were all born. 

if i worried about the "time i have left",  I would probably be a depressed, despondent person.

I could drop dead right now. writing this............ (wait for it)............ Ok,  good for now, so far.   

 

Forgot who made this analogy,  think it was the late Hippie Berkeley philosopher Allen Watts, (who probably stole it from some zen dude), but it goes something like: 

"We don't judge the quality of a dance from how long it last,  and we don't judge a song for how long it plays, (because in that case , Iron Butterfly's In the godadavida would be the best song in the last 50 years) LOL.

 

If i try to live as long as I could, I would miss out on living, because I would be doing so  because I was fearful of death, and hence fearful of living,   but that's just me.  not trying to tell anyone what to do.  just my two cents. 

[Stosh]

2 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

short of what?

we are all going to die.

just like we were all born. 

if i worried about the "time i have left",  I would probably be a depressed, despondent person.

I could drop dead right now. writing this............ (wait for it)............ Ok,  good for now, so far.   

 

Forgot who made this analogy,  think it was the late Hippie Berkeley philosopher Allen Watts, (who probably stole it from some zen dude), but it goes something like: 

"We don't judge the quality of a dance from how long it last,  and we don't judge a song for how long it plays, (because in that case , Iron Butterfly's In the godadavida would be the best song in the last 50 years) LOL.

 

If i try to live as long as I could, I would miss out on living, because I would be doing so  because I was fearful of death, and hence fearful of living,   but that's just me.  not trying to tell anyone what to do.  just my two cents. 

Sorry, best song goes to .... Don't cry for me Argentina ,(as done by Madonna)

[wandelaar]

In my mind there is a difference between broad and deep study and/or practice. One cannot have both. I think I know enough by now to see what subjects are worth deep study (and practice), and that will take up a lot of time. So the (maximal) time I have left is very relevant.

 

By the way: Iron Butterfly's  In a Gadda da Vida is a master piece! No doubt about that:

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by wandelaar

[Stosh]

6 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

In my mind there is a difference between broad and deep study and/or practice. One cannot have both. I think I know enough by now to see what subjects are worth deep study (and practice), and that will take up a lot of time. So the (maximal) time I have left is very relevant.

 

By the way: Iron Butterfly's  In a Gadda da Vida is a master piece! No doubt about that:

 

 

 

What can I say? I'm more of a romantic ,, besides ,, WHats a Gadda da vida  anyway?

Edited January 15, 2019 by Stosh

[wandelaar]

15 minutes ago, Stosh said:

What can I say? I'm more of a romantic ,, besides ,, WHats a Gadda da vida  anyway?

 

The Garden of Life. What more do you want?

[Stosh]

Just now, wandelaar said:

 

The Garden of Life. What more do you want?

Best song.. should have understandable lyrics. 

[wandelaar]

Just now, Stosh said:

Best song.. should have understandable lyrics. 

 

Or leave something to the imagination...

[Stosh]

Just now, wandelaar said:

 

Or leave something to the imagination...

 like quality ? 

[wandelaar]

It's clear that the lyrics are secondary to the music in case of Iron Butterfly's master piece, so it should rather be considered as not a song at all, than as a bad song.

 

But no need to discuss this any further. Bums can listen to the composition on my earlier link to YouTube, and thus form their own opinion of the quality of the composition.

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by wandelaar

[freeform]

“Tradition is not the worship of ashes,

but the preservation of fire.”

[Stosh]

37 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

It's clear that the lyrics are secondary to the music in case of Iron Butterfly's master piece, so it should rather be considered as not a song at all, than as a bad song.

 

But no need to discuss this any further. Bums can listen to the composition on my earlier link to YouTube, and thus form their own opinion of the quality of the composition.

 

Ok, but I don't think I need to post a link to my choice since every adult in the English speaking world knows of this great work which drew crowds in the Big Town  for many years. 

[wandelaar]

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

Ok, but I don't think I need to post a link to my choice since every adult in the English speaking world knows of this great work which drew crowds in the Big Town  for many years. 

 

A great song indeed:

 

 

[Stosh]

7 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

A great song indeed:

 

 

Beautiful rendition . 

[Wu Ming Jen]

In the garden of eden. The dude was a little drunk writing the song so when he told the band about the new song he was writing his speech was a bit slurred. They decided to keep  Gadda da vida  as the title, because it is funny.

 

Drunken kung fu  covers this song on day one with an amazing teacher that no one would dare challenge because skill is obvious.