The Evolution of a spiritual douche bag

[Zen Pig]

Discussion this am with real person.

Today's modern spiritual teacher, (well,,, a good percentage of them),  have probably had, at some time in there lives,  some kind of profound seeing or knowing, or "ah-ha" moment where what they thought they were, the world was, life was,  fundamentally changed for a brief period of time. 

This kind of direct experience is nothing special,  in my experience, and with folks who have a daily long term meditation practice. 

 

Like most people, this kind of experience is transforming, but soon our thinking mind kicks back in attempting to analyze just what happened, and whether or not we can "make" it happen again. 

Depending on our own personality, we might spend years trying to get that initial experience back,  without success, until we just give up and stop trying, and then many will again have deeper and more interesting openings into this suchness of life.

 

once again, our thinking mind, our ego pop's back up , and we now think, "wow, I have had several amazing experiences,  I must tell others about this,  maybe become a teacher so I can help others see what I saw" - so good, so far.......

 

Now this person, who use to just go sit somewhere, or have there own spiritual practice is now teaching other folks,  many of whom , come to this teacher with deep seated issues, deep insecurity, a need to belong, or a need to have someone to follow.  The new spiritual teacher has given up his/her job, and says, "well, in order to help as many people as I can, i have to charge money so I can do this full time"........

 

Now this teacher has a career,  so now, the original teaching of "just drop all ideas about what you think you want or need and just go sit" is to simple because the new seekers need to hear talk, hear about experiences, hear things that will make them feel good. have someone to follow, to believe in. 

 

Many of these  seekers who are depending on this new teacher to "Make there life ok"  now fluff up the new teachers ass, with worship, sex favors,  lots of money,  which at this point the new teacher is now the old teacher, and has rationalized that he/she is sill helping these poor students by just his/her spiritual energy or power.  seekers spend thousands on retreats, books, and never ending arguing about the "true way to become enlightened, immortal, awakened, and the original practice,  just like the sitting cushion that was purchased years ago, are both sitting in a closet collecting dust.  Amazing times.  

[Everything]

Love doesn't need a spiritual teacher to be realised. I have not met anyone, who is kind to another, who is also not at the same time, kind towards themselves. It just takes oneself to love one self enough, so as to allow for the realisation, that oneself wants to love another, unconditionally. Meaning, regardless of the conditions in their life. One simply wants to be that love, simply because it feels good.

 

So being self-ish, is simply to be one self, or more fully self-realised. Self is. But the most important thing to understand, and teach, is that every single thing you and anyone has ever wanted, is because they think they will feel better in the having of it. And when you can finally realise, that you can feel better, unconditionally, meaning, no matter what. Any and all conditions morph ever more for the sole purpose of your very own unique and individual satisfaction.

 

And thus then this unconditional love radiates out throughout their life, evermore so fully. For the benefit of themselves, and thus then also everyone around them. And so, what better way to spend money than for self love?

 

And thus, through this love for self, spending for self, tending to oneself, caring for their own feelings and state of being, and their own alignment with their own greater knowing and the more full realization of it and allowance of it, always greater realization of this love is attained. And allowed, thus then, also, to radiate outward, more fully and more naturally, evermore. Always benefitting anyone and everyone and all things, evermore.

 

There is nothing wrong with spending for the purpose of love. It's just wrong when people try to look for love outside of themselves, when it is already within them, always available for them. And through their love for self, that love is always more fully realised and recognized, as also being the same love that is the love for all and the love of all.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Everything

[Zen Pig]

8 minutes ago, Everything said:

But the most important thing to understand, and teach, is that every single thing you and anyone has ever wanted, is because they think they will feel better in the having of it.

thanks for the comments on unconditional love.  

Hard to argue with Love, not that most folks would want to. yes , love feels good,  but the definition of "unconditional love" has the aspect of the term "unconditional" right in it.

 

So, then for me, at least,  if love is truly unconditional, then even having it and not feeling good about it,  should not prevent me from showing it.  after all,  if the condition of having "unconditional love" was to "feel good", then by definition, it would not be "unconditional"...... sorry for the logic rant,  and it is very possible you meant your post a bit different. 

 

The Greeks used the term "Agape' love, or unconditional love, or God like love.  A love not done for any kind of self benefit,  even the feeling better benefit,  "selfless, sacrificial, unconditional love',   it seems in many mystic and religious traditions, this is the love that we all aspire to,  but cannot reach as humans.  Maybe someone like Gandhi or Mother Teresa, might have come close, who knows?  sure as shit don't have it,  but life is a work in progress.  maybe God grades on a curve.  LOL 

[Everything]

12 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

thanks for the comments on unconditional love.  

Hard to argue with Love, not that most folks would want to. yes , love feels good,  but the definition of "unconditional love" has the aspect of the term "unconditional" right in it.

 

So, then for me, at least,  if love is truly unconditional, then even having it and not feeling good about it,  should not prevent me from showing it.  after all,  if the condition of having "unconditional love" was to "feel good", then by definition, it would not be "unconditional"...... sorry for the logic rant,  and it is very possible you meant your post a bit different. 

 

The Greeks used the term "Agape' love, or unconditional love, or God like love.  A love not done for any kind of self benefit,  even the feeling better benefit,  "selfless, sacrificial, unconditional love',   it seems in many mystic and religious traditions, this is the love that we all aspire to,  but cannot reach as humans.  Maybe someone like Gandhi or Mother Teresa, might have come close, who knows?  sure as shit don't have it,  but life is a work in progress.  maybe God grades on a curve.  LOL 

It's simply ok to allow that love to come from within. To understand it wants to express itself. That is how you allow your unconditional nature to flow more fully through you here and now.

[Zen Pig]

Just now, Everything said:

It's simply ok to allow that love to come from within. To understand it wants to express itself. That is how you allow your unconditional nature to flow more fully through you here and now.

just spit balling here,  not trying to make any points, just curious,  do you happen to be a "spiritual teacher"?  no need to respond if this is a personal question. thanks for the comments.

[Everything]

Just now, Zen Pig said:

just spit balling here,  not trying to make any points, just curious,  do you happen to be a "spiritual teacher"?  no need to respond if this is a personal question. thanks for the comments.

I can't really teach your unconditional nature, it's something that only you can allow or not in any given moment. So you could say, I am at the mercy of your decision, evermore. And there is absolutely no blame ever, in any of it.

[Zen Pig]

45 minutes ago, Everything said:

I can't really teach your unconditional nature, it's something that only you can allow or not in any given moment. So you could say, I am at the mercy of your decision, evermore. And there is absolutely no blame ever, in any of it.

going to go with a "Yes" on this one.  LOL!   

[blackfence]

On 1/10/2019 at 7:45 AM, Zen Pig said:

Discussion this am with real person.

Today's modern spiritual teacher, (well,,, a good percentage of them),  have probably had, at some time in there lives,  some kind of profound seeing or knowing, or "ah-ha" moment where what they thought they were, the world was, life was,  fundamentally changed for a brief period of time. 

This kind of direct experience is nothing special,  in my experience, and with folks who have a daily long term meditation practice. 

 

Like most people, this kind of experience is transforming, but soon our thinking mind kicks back in attempting to analyze just what happened, and whether or not we can "make" it happen again. 

Depending on our own personality, we might spend years trying to get that initial experience back,  without success, until we just give up and stop trying, and then many will again have deeper and more interesting openings into this suchness of life.

 

once again, our thinking mind, our ego pop's back up , and we now think, "wow, I have had several amazing experiences,  I must tell others about this,  maybe become a teacher so I can help others see what I saw" - so good, so far.......

 

Now this person, who use to just go sit somewhere, or have there own spiritual practice is now teaching other folks,  many of whom , come to this teacher with deep seated issues, deep insecurity, a need to belong, or a need to have someone to follow.  The new spiritual teacher has given up his/her job, and says, "well, in order to help as many people as I can, i have to charge money so I can do this full time"........

 

Now this teacher has a career,  so now, the original teaching of "just drop all ideas about what you think you want or need and just go sit" is to simple because the new seekers need to hear talk, hear about experiences, hear things that will make them feel good. have someone to follow, to believe in. 

 

Many of these  seekers who are depending on this new teacher to "Make there life ok"  now fluff up the new teachers ass, with worship, sex favors,  lots of money,  which at this point the new teacher is now the old teacher, and has rationalized that he/she is sill helping these poor students by just his/her spiritual energy or power.  seekers spend thousands on retreats, books, and never ending arguing about the "true way to become enlightened, immortal, awakened, and the original practice,  just like the sitting cushion that was purchased years ago, are both sitting in a closet collecting dust.  Amazing times.  

And what's your solution?

[Zen Pig]

1 hour ago, blackfence said:

And what's your solution?

Have none. what do I look like? some kind of freaking Mr. smarty boots.??? LOL

[manitou]

ZenPig, you said that this morning you had a discussion with a real person.  I'm assuming he fancied himself a teacher of sorts because he had a type of awakening?  What got you to thinking about this? 

[Lost in Translation]

On 1/10/2019 at 11:46 AM, Zen Pig said:

The Greeks used the term "Agape' love, or unconditional love, or God like love

 

Unconditional love, such a strange concept. It means "there is nothing you can say, do or be that will lessen my love of you." This sounds good at first. From God to humans it is good, but from human to human it's garbage, since it means love without discernment or judgement. It means "you can walk all over me, abuse me and hurt me and I'll still love you," or perhaps it means "I am so far above you that, not unlike God, you are incapable of moving me." Neither is love. One is masochism and the other is narcissism.

[Fa Xin]

2 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Unconditional love, such a strange concept. It means "there is nothing you can say, do or be that will lessen my love of you." This sounds good at first. From God to humans it is good, but from human to human it's garbage, since it means love without discernment or judgement. It means "you can walk all over me, abuse me and hurt me and I'll still love you," or perhaps it means "I am so far above you that, not unlike God, you are incapable of moving me." Neither is love. One is masochism and the other is narcissism.

 

There is no “i” in unconditional love. 

 

There can be discernment and still be love... I think the idea of unconditional love as being a doormat is not accurate. 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Fa Xin

[mrpasserby]

I thought that we did a thread on unconditional love?

In my experience: Having unconditional love means, I do not want anything from some one, I do not need them to do anything for me, and even if I have to smack them, I will still love them and want the best for them.

I don't know how you get unconditional love but when its there it is just there. No god complex required.

Edited January 13, 2019 by mrpasserby
Rephrased unclear and harsh information

[Fa Xin]

On 1/10/2019 at 10:45 AM, Zen Pig said:

Discussion this am with real person.

Today's modern spiritual teacher, (well,,, a good percentage of them),  have probably had, at some time in there lives,  some kind of profound seeing or knowing, or "ah-ha" moment where what they thought they were, the world was, life was,  fundamentally changed for a brief period of time. 

This kind of direct experience is nothing special,  in my experience, and with folks who have a daily long term meditation practice. 

 

Like most people, this kind of experience is transforming, but soon our thinking mind kicks back in attempting to analyze just what happened, and whether or not we can "make" it happen again. 

Depending on our own personality, we might spend years trying to get that initial experience back,  without success, until we just give up and stop trying, and then many will again have deeper and more interesting openings into this suchness of life.

 

once again, our thinking mind, our ego pop's back up , and we now think, "wow, I have had several amazing experiences,  I must tell others about this,  maybe become a teacher so I can help others see what I saw" - so good, so far.......

 

Now this person, who use to just go sit somewhere, or have there own spiritual practice is now teaching other folks,  many of whom , come to this teacher with deep seated issues, deep insecurity, a need to belong, or a need to have someone to follow.  The new spiritual teacher has given up his/her job, and says, "well, in order to help as many people as I can, i have to charge money so I can do this full time"........

 

Now this teacher has a career,  so now, the original teaching of "just drop all ideas about what you think you want or need and just go sit" is to simple because the new seekers need to hear talk, hear about experiences, hear things that will make them feel good. have someone to follow, to believe in. 

 

Many of these  seekers who are depending on this new teacher to "Make there life ok"  now fluff up the new teachers ass, with worship, sex favors,  lots of money,  which at this point the new teacher is now the old teacher, and has rationalized that he/she is sill helping these poor students by just his/her spiritual energy or power.  seekers spend thousands on retreats, books, and never ending arguing about the "true way to become enlightened, immortal, awakened, and the original practice,  just like the sitting cushion that was purchased years ago, are both sitting in a closet collecting dust.  Amazing times.  

 

I agree here... lots of muck to sift through in the "spiritual" community !

 

yet we also have to recognize the different stages people are in.  for a "true seeker", they will see through the cheap and shallow facade that many "teachers" put on.  and maybe for others, the teacher is providing some thing they need. who am i to say what is right for someone else. 

 

A Holy Man stands before me ... if I look at him as a normal man, I receive normal blessings.  If I look at him as a fool, I will receive the blessings of a fool.  If I look at him as God, I will receive the blessings of God.......

.... in other words, a teacher is a mirror for us.

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Everything]

11 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Unconditional love, such a strange concept. It means "there is nothing you can say, do or be that will lessen my love of you." This sounds good at first. From God to humans it is good, but from human to human it's garbage, since it means love without discernment or judgement. It means "you can walk all over me, abuse me and hurt me and I'll still love you," or perhaps it means "I am so far above you that, not unlike God, you are incapable of moving me." Neither is love. One is masochism and the other is narcissism.

Yes, but again, you are thus then focused on what is outside of you. The conditions of your life. Unconditional love is about what you do, and think, and allow to be for yourself evermore. As all is here and now is forever.

 

You never need to go looking outside of yourself to find that love that you already contain within yourself. And that will always be your calling, evermore. And you didn't wanted it to be any other way, anyway.

 

A tree doesn't go only one branch and just grow dead center upwards, like a stubborn cactus. So what you say is wise, and it also speaks at the importance of unconditional love.

 

To simply enjoy our life in whatever way we can. The same person you can love, and they may love you back. And you always meet in that way, when both of you are in your best state of being that you can possibly be in, and if they don't love you back or no longer love you, then you simply move on, because you are not conditional enough to care about the conditions of your life more than how you feel from within.

 

The conditions, that may or may not have anything to do with the love that you always have the ever more capability allowing and acces to, that always comes from within you and that can only ever happen or be allowed to happen ever more through you, and never without you. So you allow your full unconditional love in the moment, also by allowing yourself to move on from people who are not able to allow themselves to love you in any given moment in time, for they have not yet learned to do so, or simply forgot how to do it in that moment.

 

If you no longer care about the conditions of your life, the conditions can then show you how it can serve you, by allowing you that same freedom you have given it, to love unconditionally. evermore.  In an everlasting life experience of evermore joy. Regardless of what may be happening around you or not.

[Zen Pig]

8 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

A Holy Man stands before me ... if I look at him as a normal man, I receive normal blessings.  If I look at him as a fool, I will receive the blessings of a fool.  If I look at him as God, I will receive the blessings of God.......

.... in other words, a teacher is a mirror for us.

 

I love this quote.  reminds me of a Rumi saying, "A pickpocket sees a holy man, and all he sees is his pockets" 

[Zen Pig]

13 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

from human to human it's garbage, since it means love without discernment or judgement. It means "you can walk all over me, abuse me and hurt me and I'll still love you," or perhaps it means "I am so far above you that, not unlike God, you are incapable of moving me."

I think a lot of folks feel this way about unconditional love.  In my limited experience,  (and not claiming to have "god like love"),  but I can still feel compassion for someone as i kick there ass.  my view of love is not all puppy dogs and farting rainbows.  love can be a tough teacher,  but it is not done for "what can I get out of this", but rather reacting in the moment, to do what needs to be done.  the view that "It was never about me" kind of thing.  a work in progress.

[Everything]

45 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

I think a lot of folks feel this way about unconditional love.  In my limited experience,  (and not claiming to have "god like love"),  but I can still feel compassion for someone as i kick there ass.  my view of love is not all puppy dogs and farting rainbows.  love can be a tough teacher,  but it is not done for "what can I get out of this", but rather reacting in the moment, to do what needs to be done.  the view that "It was never about me" kind of thing.  a work in progress.

That is why the words you use to describe the emotions, are not important. For they are not always accurate. Many people use many different words to describe similar emotions.

 

But what is important is that you feel the emotions that you are feeling, always here and now, and feel how they feel that is always undeniable to you in your utmost honesty of feeling them and clarity of allowing yourself to accept the emotion that you may bee feeling in any given moment in time.

 

That can always help you and guide you, to the best possible feeling you will always want to feel the more and better of.

 

As you're focused in such a way that causes discord within you, and in that moment are not fully in alignment with who you really are and your greater knowing that is for yours evermore, then you can feel early on, in the subtle beginning stages of that negative emotion, energy in motion, before allowing it gain momentum, that will always cause the pain to expand aswell from within and outward aswell.

 

But if you always tend to your own energy and allow your hearts feeling to guide you in this, as you are focusing more towards what does feel better, and better, then you can also always easily and effortlessly, feel better, regardless of the conditions of your life, as to eventually also be feeling good.

 

And when you do, that can then be allowed to gain momentum aswell, and eventually reach such a great point of clarity so as to inspire one to take inspired action, from a state of greater allowed awareness, love, acceptance, and knowing. That will always yield the best possible outcome and result.

 

For these kind of inspired actions always leverage the power of the energy which creates worlds and is also thus then fully backed up by it and always fully supported by it in that way, so as to allow for the most fulfilling course of actions to be oh so naturally and pleasantly and joyfully and effortlessly expressed through you.

 

Through you unwavering doubt and greater knowing, of all that holds value to you and these values then forever can be reflected back to you, unconditionally, meaning regardless of whatever condition you may thus then be in. Thus then also allowing the conditions to show to you how it can be so that all these values are there for you.

 

And you allow that, simply because you care about how you feel more than the conditions of your life, meaning more than anything, that may inspire you to always allow your greater knowing that always happens together with your better feeling.

 

Only when you reach such a depth of despair and pain, that you begin to realise that all circumstances depend solely on your own inner alignment, and never the other way around?

 

This incredible pain and despair is also then often a catalyst for an individual to begin caring about how they feel more than the conditions of their life. And thus then unconditional love can be achieved much more easily and simply, by virtue of the new found realisation of the importance of it, and thus then the new found ability to focus on your own ever greater inner alignment that you can always achieve here and now, where all your power ever was, is and always will be.

 

And it also doesn't take allot of pain or discord in ones life to realise that this is so. For if they simply choose to care about how they feel, and tend to their own alignment with their greater ability to allow all that is well, by virtue of their focusing, the personal experience that follows than can also be their greatest and most undeniable teacher of all of it aswell. In such a way that they can never ever possibly forget. Not completely.

 

Not untill they die, and then realise, they no longer need that emotional guidance, for they have thus then fully re-emerged into their greater non-physical consciousness and all of its greater knowing that thus then has also become more, by virtue of your having lived your life here, that has also always have been a vital part of it's ever expansion, and will continue to be so, evermore.

 

But ofcourse you and no one needs to die, in order to allow themselves to simply choose in the here and now to align themselves with their inner greater knowing, by virtue of how they're feeling as they're focusing their mind creator mechanism, in whatever way they can do so. And forever thus then reap the benefit of this doing, of the art of allowing, the art of feeling better, unconditionally.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Everything

[wandelaar]

@ Everything

 

Do you ever watch the news, or care about what is happening in the outside world?

[Fa Xin]

2 hours ago, Zen Pig said:

I think a lot of folks feel this way about unconditional love.  In my limited experience,  (and not claiming to have "god like love"),  but I can still feel compassion for someone as i kick there ass.  my view of love is not all puppy dogs and farting rainbows.  love can be a tough teacher,  but it is not done for "what can I get out of this", but rather reacting in the moment, to do what needs to be done.  the view that "It was never about me" kind of thing.  a work in progress.

 

I've been thinking about this subject since last night ... none of it is easy to describe but I'll give it a shot as I see it.

 

Pure, unattached awareness would be closest to unconditional love, in my view.

 

Awareness of when you look at someone, even if they are a total jerk ... you see them as a soul, for what they really are deep down, the same as ourselves; even a part of us.  Sure you can have discernment for their personality or how they conduct themselves in this world - but the awareness goes deep enough that you also see past that.  Kind of like seeing the good in everyone.  It's not a puppy dog/rainbow thing, it is just clarity...

[ilumairen]

 

13 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

I think the idea of unconditional love as being a doormat is not accurate. 

 

Because it can be people acting out what they believe unconditional love should look like, and there can be any number of unhealthy internalized dynamics manifesting. 

 

You hit the nail on the head when you used the word 'idea'.. 

[Fa Xin]

Just now, ilumairen said:

 

 

Because it can be people acting out what they believe unconditional love should look like, and there can be any number of unhealthy internalized dynamics manifesting. 

 

You hit the nail on the head when you used the word 'idea'.. 

 

Yes exactly!  

[Lost in Translation]

14 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

There is no “i” in unconditional love. 

 

There can be discernment and still be love... I think the idea of unconditional love as being a doormat is not accurate. 

 

I think we need to define "love", otherwise this conversation will lose all meaning amid words. What is "Love?" Is love a feeling, or is love a feeling combined with the impetus to action? For example, a man "loves" his son and his son gets in trouble. Will the same risk his reputation and his fortune to help his son? If he will then this can be called love, since the well being of the son is greater than the man's own well being. If he won't risk his reputation and fortune then this cannot be called love. Perhaps it's more like affection.

 

So back to "unconditional love", e.g. to love someone so completely that you put their well being above your own and in the process are prepared to sacrifice your own well being in return regardless of that person's words or deeds -- that is what I see as masochistically allowing someone to walk over you.

 

And if a person claims to feel "unconditional love" but is unwilling to take deleterious action against themselves to follow through on that love then that person is simply being narcissistic by granting themselves the pleasure of feeling like they are loving towards the other when really they are just loving themselves.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Lost in Translation

[Lost in Translation]

14 hours ago, mrpasserby said:

In my experience and to me it means: I do not want anything from you, I do not need you to do anything for me, and even if I have to kick your a#*, I will still love you and want the best for you. I have a long list of what I call friendly enemies, some of whom kicked my a#*, and visa versa.

 

I'm glad you said this. I think you are on the right track but perhaps I can clarify your thoughts for you.

 

"I do not want anything from you, I do not need you to do anything for me, and even if I have to kick your a#*, I will still love you and want the best for you."

 

This is not right. You do indeed want something,  You want the other person to be good - to be a good person - otherwise you would not consider the need to kick their a#*, and you are willing to sacrifice your relationship with that person to do this - hence the belief that you do not want or need anything from that person.

[Zen Pig]

5 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

So back to "unconditional love", e.g. to love someone so completely that you put their well being above your own and in the process are prepared to sacrifice your own well being in return regardless of that person's words or deeds -- that is what I see as masochistically allowing someone to walk over you.

There is a great story that the late Joseph Campbell tells during his time living in Hawaii .

He tells of a news story he watched on the local TV channel that told of a young man getting ready to jump to his death off a cliff.

A Hawaiian cop arrives at the scene ,  and tries to talk the jumper down.

All at once the young man either jumps, or just looses his balance, and the cop reaches out and grabs him.

The cop is almost dragged off the cliff,  but does not let go,  and finally another cop arrives and saves the cop from being pulled over the cliff along with the young man.

When asked "why did you hang on to this young man, even though he was pulling you  to your death"......

The hero cop replied, "I just knew that I could not let go,  if this young man died,  I would have also died"

 

Don't see this as someone "walking over this cop, or masochistically action"..  I can't tell anyone what real love is... but I know it when I see it.