Lineages- old and new

[Spotless]

It is interesting to read and listen to Awakened teachers that have come from a long established lineage as well as teachers that have Awakened and then adopted a long established lineage as their teaching.

 

It is also interesting to see Awakened teachers using their own words from the present and often changing the typical fashion of going about helping students to be pointed in practice and general sniffing around trying to get a clue what this “illusion” thing is all about.

 

There is no question that there are benefits to a great well established lineage. And it is very possible for an Awakened teacher to adopt a lineage in which they have no prior base.

 

But I am acutely aware that many of the past lineages of the very best and most productive sorts have wording and dogma that make it nearly impossible to clarify in a new students mind even the slightest whiff of what they are actually alluding to and teaching.

 

Some of the most refreshing and superb Awakened teachers are uncompromisingly direct and clarify the “project” of Awakening so simply and so well that by comparison many extraordinary old lineages appear to actually create more detours than road maps by entailing incalculable destinations and using words and structures of teaching that are basically misleading by their vary exactness.

 

I am not starting this topic with any objection - it is a remembrance that when I Awoke the experience was so utterly and completely unlike anything I had read anywhere in the great ancient traditions that I was completely unsure of what had transpired.

 

And it is in this remembrance that this topic is created.

 

I am from the “long” traditions - lots of practice and the idea that perhaps in ten lifetimes you might Awaken - they are in many ways as perfect as they are full of bullshit. 

 

Yet some of the emerging short forms - particularly those engineering 

quick Awakening are also very questionable.

 

But some new teachings are very clear and offer real lasting abiding Awakening from simple yet strong well worded contemporary guidance.

 

What cannot be expressed very clearly to many reading this is that once Awakened some stupidly simple teachings are clearly seen to be among the very best teachings to Awaken and some of the most superb and complex lineages make it nearly impossible to see the Forrest through the trees.

 

Some seemingly very simple Awakened teachers are unquestionably the best pointers to truth and best practices for Awakening to Self, while some of the most authoritative Awakened teachers from some of the oldest and finest lineages are simply so immersed in initiations and transmissions and proper progress that they have put the cart before the horse to a great extent - as though teaching post Awakening work is best done prior to Awakening.

 

It is tempting to utilize an old and wonderful lineage as an Awakened person considering or being brought into teaching - everything is already laid out and easily tweaked where one would like and students can plug into the tradition.

 

It can also radically slow further progress in one’s post Awakened unfolding. 

 

And deep within one Awakened can wonder if teaching is what will be happening if at all.

 

I also partly bring this up because of how brutally some “advanced” seekers judge “simple teachers” who are often obviously to those Awake of the highest attainment and often speak little from any lineage at all.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Spotless

[Jeff]

Why would an awakened teacher adopt a lineage of which they have not participated in? They would seem to have had their own path, and hence why would they not teach that?

 

Additionally, since they have not been taught or trained with the actual lineage, how would they know that they had the actual realizations that the tradition describes, and it is not something different that they are just mapping to in their mind?

[wandelaar]

2 hours ago, Spotless said:

I am not starting this topic with any objection - it is a remembrance that when I Awoke the experience was so utterly and completely unlike anything I had read anywhere in the great ancient traditions that I was completely unsure of what had transpired.

 

Was it also very different from the mystical experiences as described by the great mystics and as described in the psychological literature about mystical experiences?

[Spotless]

It is not that it is different - it’s that older wording and contemporary wording using old words make an unrecognizable discussion.

 

When one Awakens it is immediately clear what everyone was trying to say - but astonishingly - many new Awakened teachers go right back to using the same words that were completely ineffective in conveying the general feeling of what it might is some way be like.

 

A very sizesble percentage of those that Awaken go to Western Medical Doctors to see what is wrong with them. Some are terrified. Most have been meditating or doing some practice for years. They simply don’t recognize what has happened as anything they have read or been taught.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Spotless

[Jonesboy]

What is your definition of Awakened?

[Spotless]

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

What is your definition of Awakened?

In some cases it would mean Enlightenment as defined as the end of suffering, the end of fear, the destruction of ego.

 

An abiding presence in intuitive awareness and what some have termed the un-grasped state. 

 

A state in which the investment in one’s personhood and egoism / habituations has ceased and Self - Divine Essence - Presence In The Moment  has come forth and one is abiding in this awareness.

 

Oneness and Unity Consciousness may preceed this state or unfold during or after Awakening.

 

A deep and sometimes completely incapacitating shift to a non- inertia state - often coupled with nearly complete loss of personal identity / the falling away of self/ego/one’s story/identifications. Often particularly debilitating for 2 years or more in a sort of free fall with no desires or inclinations and often accompanied by intense feelings of gratitude (toward nothing in particular or everything at once).

Typically having Awareness 24 hours a day even while the body sleeps if it sleeps at all.

 

The shift may include phenomenal sustained changes in energy, a sort of constant feeling of floating about two inches above the ground while being utterly embodied and intensely visceral. Non-object Awareness, consistent frequent No Thought Awareness and the easy ability to be In no thought. No dreams, expanded inner sight, expanded Unity Consciousness and considerably more.

 

Some residual habituations may remain but may or may not be obvious until they are. 

 

All seeking ends completely

 

It is crystal clear that selfhood has fallen away - one’s positions and habituation have largely fallen away and virtually no holding of positions

that still have some habituation.

 

It may be that Samadhi can be had at any time - that immense energies unravel in incapacitating but not overwhelming openings from time to time or become sustained.

 

 

These were just some of my experiences and are frequently cited as full Awakening experiences and abiding Awakening vs “an experience or taste of Awakening”. 

 

As as it has been noted - some consider these general qualities to be Enlightenment - I do not - though certainly some of the components are indicative of a more established abiding.

 

Some experience fluquations in and out of abidance in Presence and loss and regaining of personhood and still sleep fully and dream - this has not been the case in the experience here.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Spotless

[dawei]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Why would an awakened teacher adopt a lineage of which they have not participated in? They would seem to have had their own path, and hence why would they not teach that?

 

Additionally, since they have not been taught or trained with the actual lineage, how would they know that they had the actual realizations that the tradition describes, and it is not something different that they are just mapping to in their mind?

 

Not sure I follow the topic point or your point... but if one is an awakened teacher, shouldn't a lineage be meaningless; ergo, they can understand most any lineage ?

 

The 'mapping to in their mind' seems to suggest not awakened.    

 

Just not sure what you are arguing here but would like to understand it more. 

[flowing hands]

Old or new traditions really have little effect on awakening and of course it depends on what one's definition of awakening is? It is wholly a pyscho, emotional and physical thing and true awakening can only be experienced in the presence of a true awakened master like an Immortal. For the Immortal will take you beyond normal perception in all senses, open the third eye and then carefully bring you back. Now bringing you back is the important bit for here lies the dangerous bit, where one cannot come back without being damaged. So this is why true enlightenment in a physical body needs the support of an already enlightened master. Would I personally trust any human to this task? No is the answer.

[wandelaar]

@ Spotless

 

You have given a clear description of your experience, and comparable descriptions are to be found in the psychological literature on religion and mystical experiences. I think that the Buddhist idea of the non-existence of the individual self as an autonomic entity is very relevant here. Happily modern psychology is coming to the same conclusion. So although I didn't had a mystical experience myself I think it can be understood as basically the dropping away of the illusion of the existence of an individual self. No need to use mythological or alchemical symbolism.

 

But sadly in our Western society the role of the individual is hugely overvalued, so that the idea of there being no individual self is generally seen as crazy by ordinary people. And that's why some people get the experience and don't recognise it for what is, and consequently get a panic attack, think they have gone mad, or worse.

[Zen Pig]

8 hours ago, Spotless said:

These were just some of my experiences and are frequently cited as full Awakening experiences and abiding Awakening vs “an experience or taste of Awakening”. 

hmmmmmm.  so i take it that you want all of us to know that you are awakened? 

Just pulling you non-existent, non-ego leg.  

 

I have also had experiences that transcend description, but just seeing the connection to everything, no gaps,  and the amazing wonder of it all is as close as i can come to speaking of it.

With that said,  I don't have a fucking clue what the term, or word "awakening" means.  For me, it is a label folks put on themselves or the so called "spiritual teachers" that gives them a "special" standing in the spiritual community, (such as it is), that says, "I made it, now I know shit".  LOL

Been at this cat and pony show for some time,  talked to adyashanti, and others, and never seen anyone who "destroyed ego".  Maybe someone has,  but then again, they are probably not posting on these kinds of links and talking through there asses like I am right now.

Ego is as much a part of the human experience, (at least for me) as eating, shitting, laughing, crying and everything else that makes us human.  For me,  it is just that this so called ego,  doesn't have the power I once gave it. while it is still a part of me, it is not in the drivers seat,  but others experiences could be very different. who knows.

 

[s1va]

8 hours ago, Spotless said:

In some cases it would mean Enlightenment as defined as the end of suffering, the end of fear, the destruction of ego.

 

An abiding presence in intuitive awareness and what some have termed the un-grasped state. 

 

A state in which the investment in one’s personhood and egoism / habituations has ceased and Self - Divine Essence - Presence In The Moment  has come forth and one is abiding in this awareness.

 

Oneness and Unity Consciousness may preceed this state or unfold during or after Awakening.

 

A deep and sometimes completely incapacitating shift to a non- inertia state - often coupled with nearly complete loss of personal identity / the falling away of self/ego/one’s story/identifications. Often particularly debilitating for 2 years or more in a sort of free fall with no desires or inclinations and often accompanied by intense feelings of gratitude (toward nothing in particular or everything at once).

Typically having Awareness 24 hours a day even while the body sleeps if it sleeps at all.

 

The shift may include phenomenal sustained changes in energy, a sort of constant feeling of floating about two inches above the ground while being utterly embodied and intensely visceral. Non-object Awareness, consistent frequent No Thought Awareness and the easy ability to be In no thought. No dreams, expanded inner sight, expanded Unity Consciousness and considerably more.

 

Some residual habituations may remain but may or may not be obvious until they are. 

 

All seeking ends completely

 

It is crystal clear that selfhood has fallen away - one’s positions and habituation have largely fallen away and virtually no holding of positions

that still have some habituation.

 

It may be that Samadhi can be had at any time - that immense energies unravel in incapacitating but not overwhelming openings from time to time or become sustained.

 

 

These were just some of my experiences and are frequently cited as full Awakening experiences and abiding Awakening vs “an experience or taste of Awakening”. 

 

As as it has been noted - some consider these general qualities to be Enlightenment - I do not - though certainly some of the components are indicative of a more established abiding.

 

Some experience fluquations in and out of abidance in Presence and loss and regaining of personhood and still sleep fully and dream - this has not been the case in the experience here.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem for me is, various different major openings and corresponding realizations are possible at different levels.  Like, one going through the ten Buddha bhumis to finally become a Buddha or even before these bhumis, the chakra openings.  Any one of these can be classified as an awakening and it looks like different people are discribing different thing as Awakening.  There is nothing wrong in this.  But, when we take Awakening as a one topic and study, it can cause lot of confusion since there is no common ground among all awakenings.  If we say it is the emerging oneness and falling away of self that is common, then once again this happens at various degrees at each level starting from the heart chakra opening to the levels above.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Not sure I follow the topic point or your point... but if one is an awakened teacher, shouldn't a lineage be meaningless; ergo, they can understand most any lineage ?

 

The 'mapping to in their mind' seems to suggest not awakened.    

 

Just not sure what you are arguing here but would like to understand it more. 

 

Your question implies that you believe that all awakenings are the same. And hence all lineages are the same. I do not.  

 

View affects outcome. One persons awakening is another persons mental burp.

[ilumairen]

34 minutes ago, Jeff said:

One persons awakening is another persons mental burp.

 

...

[Spotless]

17 hours ago, Jeff said:

Why would an awakened teacher adopt a lineage of which they have not participated in? They would seem to have had their own path, and hence why would they not teach that?

 

Additionally, since they have not been taught or trained with the actual lineage, how would they know that they had the actual realizations that the tradition describes, and it is not something different that they are just mapping to in their mind?

Good question - but quite a few have and they are clearly Awake. Those that I am familiar with Awoke but did not have much of a relationship with a particular teaching.

Once clearly Awake it is obvious regarding most of the realizations

and your question in that regard.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Spotless

[Spotless]

5 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Not sure I follow the topic point or your point... but if one is an awakened teacher, shouldn't a lineage be meaningless; ergo, they can understand most any lineage ?

 

The 'mapping to in their mind' seems to suggest not awakened.    

 

Just not sure what you are arguing here but would like to understand it more. 

In general an Awakened teacher would understand most any lineage -  but that does not imply that for those without a prior clear lineage that they would all be inclined to start their own teaching rather than utilize a previous one.

 

It is pretty easy to see how tempting utilizing a previous well established lineage make many things a whole lot easier.

 

In Essence - my bigger discussion here is the continued use of old wording that has proven itself to be quite unclear - though very clear after the fact.

 

 

 

[Jonesboy]

Are lineages just a set of teachings or is there more to them?

[Spotless]

1 hour ago, s1va said:

 

The problem for me is, various different major openings and corresponding realizations are possible at different levels.  Like, one going through the ten Buddha bhumis to finally become a Buddha or even before these bhumis, the chakra openings.  Any one of these can be classified as an awakening and it looks like different people are discribing different thing as Awakening.  There is nothing wrong in this.  But, when we take Awakening as a one topic and study, it can cause lot of confusion since there is no common ground among all awakenings.  If we say it is the emerging oneness and falling away of self that is common, then once again this happens at various degrees at each level starting from the heart chakra opening to the levels above.

This is not about “awakenings” and “realizations” and “openings”.

 

From that standpoint do think in terms of reaching Enlightenment and go back from there to “complete and sustained sudden falling away of the ego centric self”

 

generally - it happens fairly rapidly - in the vast majority of cases. It is not an “experience” - it is a very considerable shift.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Spotless said:

In general an Awakened teacher would understand most any lineage -  but that does not imply that for those without a prior clear lineage that they would all be inclined to start their own teaching rather than utilize a previous one.

 

It is pretty easy to see how tempting utilizing a previous well established lineage make many things a whole lot easier.

 

In Essence - my bigger discussion here is the continued use of old wording that has proven itself to be quite unclear - though very clear after the fact.

 

 

My concern is that it is more about the interpretation of the wording. That people are trying to map some experience they have had to awakening/realization, when they are not the same level of realization. That someone may have had something like an opening of the heart experience and then declare it as the same as emptiness of self in their mind. They then believe they are “done”, when they have simply begun, and in essence trapping themselves in a new “spiritual” ego state.

 

Like giving themselves trophys for simply participating...  

[Spotless]

4 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Are lineages just a set of teachings or is there more to them?

Not actually sure what your question is - it could be viewed in several ways. There are the words set down on paper and various translations and then there is the living lineage in the various schools and masters teaching it and there is also the resonance and powers that come with it.

[Jonesboy]

8 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Not actually sure what your question is - it could be viewed in several ways. There are the words set down on paper and various translations and then there is the living lineage in the various schools and masters teaching it and there is also the resonance and powers that come with it.

 

You could say the power is the true lineage.

 

So are you saying that you know people, maybe yourself that has realized and transmit a lineage or can choose a lineage and be the living embodiment of said lineage. Transmitting it out into the world?

 

Edit:

 

I misread your post thinking you meant the power of the lineage, not that one acquires powers from said lineage.

 

What is resonance of a lineage to you then? Would you agree with my above post?

 

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Jonesboy

[s1va]

4 minutes ago, Spotless said:

This is not about “awakenings” and “realizations” and “openings”.

 

From that standpoint do think in terms of reaching Enlightenment and go back from there to “complete and sustained sudden falling away of the ego centric self”

 

generally - it happens fairly rapidly - in the vast majority of cases. It is not an “experience” - it is a very considerable shift.

 

I agree on the very considerable shift.  Infact that is what it exactly is.  A considerable shift and when it happens rapidly in some, it seems to leave a strong impression of a new state, or even mislead some to think they are enlightened.  Is the person free from all sufferings and afflictions as Buddha stated?  The answer seems to be no.  To me, this awakening is just the start of the journey.  Long ways to go afterwards.  The challenges after the so called awakenings are much higher than before.  One needs to let go and keep expanding to cope up with them.  When they resist to let go, they suffer.  Divine guidance is essential after the awakening.

[ilumairen]

7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

They then believe they are “done”, when they have simply begun, and in essence trapping themselves in a new “spiritual” ego state.

 

And, as far as I've witnessed there is little difference, save in the pretty words used, between mundane ego and spiritual ego.. it's just a prettier looking cloak. 

 

7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Like giving themselves trophys for simply participating...  

 

 

[Spotless]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

My concern is that it is more about the interpretation of the wording. That people are trying to map some experience they have had to awakening/realization, when they are not the same level of realization. That someone may have had something like an opening of the heart experience and then declare it as the same as emptiness of self in their mind. They then believe they are “done”, when they have simply begun, and in essence trapping themselves in a new “spiritual” ego state.

 

Like giving themselves trophys for simply participating...  

This is a concern - but for one who has Awoke it is not. 

 

But - it is certainly possible to believe one has awoken who has not. Precisely why wording is so important.

 

If one has not awoken it is generally easily argued that it is a mind set or mind shift or mind mapping of some sort - it is very very clearly not.

 

It is extremely possible and quite often the case that one opens into Unity Consciousness or Oneness and thinks they have attained Awakening - precisely because it entails many of the elements and feelings - and it can and does often take place somewhat gradually or even very gradually.

 

For those that first open into Unity Consciousness and then Awaken the reports are consistent in that in Awakening a great deal more fell away that they had thought they had already moved beyond.

 

It is generally quite easy to see someone speaking from Unity/Oneness who is not Awake vs someone who is.

 

 

[Spotless]

6 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

You could say the power is the true lineage.

 

So are you saying that you know people, maybe yourself that has realized and transmit a lineage or can choose a lineage and be the living embodiment of said lineage. Transmitting it out into the world?

 

Edit:

 

I misread your post thinking you meant the power of the lineage, not that one acquires powers from said lineage.

 

What is resonance of a lineage to you then? Would you agree with my above post?

 

 

I believe I agree with your point - 

 

Case in point:

 

I personally know of one clearly Awakened teacher that teaches Kashmir Shaivism - he has become an expert of sorts and it is what his teaching consists of - but it is not part of anything he studied prior to Awakening (in this life) - it had nothing to do with his prior practice.

 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Spotless

[Jonesboy]

3 minutes ago, Spotless said:

I believe I agree with your point - 

 

Case in point:

 

I personally know of one clearly Awakened teacher that teaches Kashmir Shaivism - he has become an expert of sorts and it is what his teaching consists of - but it is not part of anything he studied prior to Awakening (in this life) - it had nothing to do with his prior practice.

 

Teaches or has become One like Siva and transmits KS?

 

Works by Grace and has the powers of creation? Can perform the Rites of Adoration?

Edited January 14, 2019 by Jonesboy