Lineages- old and new

[Spotless]

5 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Teaches or has become One like Siva and transmits KS?

 

Works by Grace and has the powers of creation? Can perform the Rites of Adoration?

KS? 

Not really sure what you are taking about with the words you are using.

 

(kundalini shakti?)

Edited January 14, 2019 by Spotless

[Spotless]

23 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Was it also very different from the mystical experiences as described by the great mystics and as described in the psychological literature about mystical experiences?

It is very different from “experiences” in general. I have had many of what would be called mystical experiences but Awakening is very different - if anything it would be somewhat close to taking mushrooms and morphine together but much more intense and sustained and beautiful.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Spotless

[Jeff]

6 hours ago, Spotless said:

This is a concern - but for one who has Awoke it is not. 

 

But - it is certainly possible to believe one has awoken who has not. Precisely why wording is so important.

 

If one has not awoken it is generally easily argued that it is a mind set or mind shift or mind mapping of some sort - it is very very clearly not.

 

It is extremely possible and quite often the case that one opens into Unity Consciousness or Oneness and thinks they have attained Awakening - precisely because it entails many of the elements and feelings - and it can and does often take place somewhat gradually or even very gradually.

 

For those that first open into Unity Consciousness and then Awaken the reports are consistent in that in Awakening a great deal more fell away that they had thought they had already moved beyond.

 

It is generally quite easy to see someone speaking from Unity/Oneness who is not Awake vs someone who is.

 

 

 

Even in your words here, you are somehow defining Unity consciousness as a thing, and then that it is somehow different than some other thing that you are calling awakening. None of these are defined terms, also I know of no tradition where two such things both exist and are separate things. Maybe it would be helpful if you could use some tradition framework and their terms.

 

But to me, as ilumarien pointed out above, words no matter how pretty are simply words. True realization is “radiated” and can be easily felt. 

[Pilgrim]

15 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Even in your words here, you are somehow defining Unity consciousness as a thing, and then that it is somehow different than some other thing that you are calling awakening. None of these are defined terms, also I know of no tradition where two such things both exist and are separate things. Maybe it would be helpful if you could use some tradition framework and their terms.

 

But to me, as ilumarien pointed out above, words no matter how pretty are simply words. True realization is “radiated” and can be easily felt. 

Well said.

 

[Jonesboy]

17 hours ago, Spotless said:

KS? 

Not really sure what you are taking about with the words you are using.

 

(kundalini shakti?)

 

Sorry about the terms Spotless

 

KS = Kashmir Shiavism.

 

When I talk about teaching by grace the following is a perfect example from within the tradition.

 

 

The Rites of Adoration is a group energy practice and is described in here.

 

 

[Apech]

Thanks for this thread - very interesting read.

 

It made me think of this:

Quote

 

Matthew 5:17-20 King James Version (KJV)
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

 

So even Jesus who was not exactly the most popular with the priesthood - fulfilled the law - which I take to mean he fulfilled the lineage.  In other words he correctly understood and embodied what the lineage teachings were talking about - while the priests had fallen into ritual observance (they may of course understood some of it but not all of it or indeed the central purpose).

 

I would also add that although it is true that realisation or awakening can be understood as living in the present moment in awareness of the true nature of reality - here and now - it is also true to say that we each carry a long history. A personal lineage if you like in our bodies or perhaps in our beings.  So there is a sense of fulfilment of an ancient purpose in our work. 

[Spotless]

15 minutes ago, Apech said:

Thanks for this thread - very interesting read.

 

It made me think of this:

 

So even Jesus who was not exactly the most popular with the priesthood - fulfilled the law - which I take to mean he fulfilled the lineage.  In other words he correctly understood and embodied what the lineage teachings were talking about - while the priests had fallen into ritual observance (they may of course understood some of it but not all of it or indeed the central purpose).

 

I would also add that although it is true that realisation or awakening can be understood as living in the present moment in awareness of the true nature of reality - here and now - it is also true to say that we each carry a long history. A personal lineage if you like in our bodies or perhaps in our beings.  So there is a sense of fulfilment of an ancient purpose in our work. 

An extraordinarily subtle point 😎

[Spotless]

On 1/14/2019 at 7:02 AM, s1va said:

 

I agree on the very considerable shift.  Infact that is what it exactly is.  A considerable shift and when it happens rapidly in some, it seems to leave a strong impression of a new state, or even mislead some to think they are enlightened.  Is the person free from all sufferings and afflictions as Buddha stated?  The answer seems to be no.  To me, this awakening is just the start of the journey.  Long ways to go afterwards.  The challenges after the so called awakenings are much higher than before.  One needs to let go and keep expanding to cope up with them.  When they resist to let go, they suffer.  Divine guidance is essential after the awakening.

In a full Awakening suffering ends.

 

This does not mean either Enlightenment nor the end of work or change or hardship - suffering is the result of attachment/willfulness and when it ceases then even residual “attachment” is un-attached - one does not meander into futures and worry and extrapolations and mind loops and willfulness. (Though this does vary - certainly upon the level of Abidance - many waver considerably in the beginning years - particularly those that have been assisted and or engineered).

 

You state above:

”To me, this awakening is just the start of the journey.  Long ways to go afterwards.  The challenges after the so called awakenings are much higher than before.  One needs to let go and keep expanding to cope up with them.  When they resist to let go, they suffer.  Divine guidance is essential after the awakening.”

 

I have not been speaking of “Awakenings” - that is a relative perspective and has nothing to do with actual Awakening. In the quote above it is not spoken from an Awakened state /Self. 

 

The push of willfulness to do, seek, improve has disappeared - not hidden - it is no longer. Divine Guidance/ Grace becomes one’s happening. Residuals of patterned “doing” and willfulness may still be found here and there - in fact in my experience so much was gone that it was surprising sometimes when things would emerge still patterned - but with very little to zero attachment to the experiencing of it.

 

As an example - about two years ago someone stole around $10,000 from me. I was unaware that I could still become so angry - yet the anger did not linger long but it would come back when I saw or met with the person. It was

a process that I watched over a considerable time.

 

In another instance I found out I still had some automated negative feeling toward my father - but they had almost no energy on them. Then one day - I found out that all residual patterns toward my father had vanished entirely.

 

I was not willfully surrendering, not “letting go” as in a “doing”.

 

Far more often I am overcome with Gratitude and must in many cases sit or pull over the car or walk to solitude. Once when driving I pulled over and my wife asked what was up and I explained I could no longer drive and needed to close my eyes - not because of tiredness - the energies were incredible and the eyes became faucets.

 

I have had meditation sessions where after getting up I have long streaks of white going down from my eyes - when I pushed on them they cracked - it was dried salt crystallized in tear streams.

 

In the abiding Awakened /Self Divine Guidance is realized. It is what one is. The compunction to do ceases - it is a transition to happening - unimpeded intuitive presence. Movement in perfection. Imperfection is perfect - trying to bend it to one’s will has ceased. Constant attempts to push one’s projections as a square peg into a round hole is over.

 

But the constant expansion is devastatingly immense - it nearly drops one to one’s knees and it does not stop at least it has not for some six years and shows no sign of letting up.

 

I do nothing - some faint portion somewhat expects doing to resume - yet no doing is taking place - happening is taking place - Presence.

 

I practice Qi Gong - my “students” practice with me though it appears I am also teaching Qi Gong. Constantly the subtle bodies expand and faint residuals fall away. I would agree “work” continues - in Awakening there is no doing in the “work”. And it certainly is possible to appear to go backwards or in fact go backwards or simply appear to be somewhat static in residual patterns.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Spotless

[Spotless]

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Sorry about the terms Spotless

 

KS = Kashmir Shiavism.

 

When I talk about teaching by grace the following is a perfect example from within the tradition.

 

 

The Rites of Adoration is a group energy practice and is described in here.

 

 

My answer is with the assumption that you are asking me if an Awakened teacher that does not have a lineage as you have mentioned above can - in my view - take on a lineage with the power and Grace expressed above.

 

Yes - but - it is not necessarily the case. 

 

If one is actually Awake and abiding in Divine Essence - and they were moved to adopt such a lineage - the chances are quite high that none of what was mentioned would be a problem in the least.

 

This is entirely in the makeup of what is manifest in that teacher.

 

For some seekers very little guidance is needed and for some close proximity to a teacher is needed - for many a teacher and considerable guidance is needed.

 

Some teachers will not be inclined to  open transmission and in fact you might sit right next to them and not feel much at all - unless they open. And even then - the student awakens when it’s time and the teacher does nothing other than reside in Presence.

 

Some teachers are inclined to a very wide variety of happenings and institutions spring up around them.

 

Some teachings are very trance oriented and some teachers don’t trance at all and would not teach trance.

 

Grace is over thought by students - we are all in Grace - yet wilfully sidestep it in the illusion. Grace dawns upon Awakening. 

 

Many aspects of Abiding Awakening appear to be Enlightenment while they are quite early on aspects of settled Awakened being. Even many absurdly “high” levels appear to be aspects of a settled abiding Presence.

 

One does not have to be “Enlightened” in order to be at many levels assumed to be reserved only for those at Enlightenment. And then one can argue - or bring up the question - is there such state in its entirety or is it also and ongoing expansion.  It is safe to say at some point one has entered Enlightenment - when one knows nothing it would be difficult to say what that would be.

[Jonesboy]

Thank you Spotless for your insight.

 

May I ask, can you or the friend you mentioned that is awakened combine a group of people into a shared unified consciousness?

 

Also, isn’t Grace used as a means of lifting the veil of the illusion? If one has realized Grace like you mentioned why wouldn’t they help others directly over say only providing meditation techniques to those ready to receive it?

 

Edit: I use the veil of illusion as an example, not my personal view.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Pilgrim]

11 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

combine a group of people into a shared unified consciousness?

Uni-MInd? 

[Jonesboy]

6 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Uni-MInd? 

 

Oneness,

 

From the articles.

 

"Consciousness which is overflowing with bliss, even when
considered individually, attains in these spectacles a state of unity and, because
of that, a state of full and perfect blissfulness" .."In the practice of
the circle (cakra) one must adore all the bodies of all those present because
since they have all penetrated in the fullness of consciousness they are in reality
as if they were our own body."

 

"When such a disciple sits before his Master, all he has to do is to gaze

at him and be aware of his elevated state to feel the fragrance (vdsand) of

the Master's transcendental consciousness extending spontaneously

within him."

 

"So gracious is he that, by transferring his own nature to those whose

consciousness is pure, they became one with him at his [mere] sight."

 

"The disciple's consciousness thus suddenly expands within him like the

violent and rapid spread of poison through the body (bhujarigagaralavat).

He thus becomes one with his Master in the unifying bliss of universal

consciousness and so, whether his eyes are open or closed, continues to

enjoy the same state constantly."

 

What is being described is not a trance or just feeling the presence of someone but a Master that can share his being with or without intent for the benefit of others.

[Pilgrim]

Good.

[Spotless]

19 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

Thank you Spotless for your insight.

 

May I ask, can you or the friend you mentioned that is awakened combine a group of people into a shared unified consciousness?

 

Also, isn’t Grace used as a means of lifting the veil of the illusion? If one has realized Grace like you mentioned why wouldn’t they help others directly over say only providing meditation techniques to those ready to receive it?

 

Edit: I use the veil of illusion as an example, not my personal view.

Teachers and sages find their way - or “their” way happens upon them. Who is to say what teaching is best for them to teach?

 

Quite a number of enlightened teachers were /are able to confer Awakening upon individuals and many have reported that they quit doing it in general because invariably it was premature to the student. 

 

Students assume all Enlughtened teachers have all the projections and misunderstandings  and pedestals that they “KNOW” they have while in fact they know nothing.

 

Some - many - students do not seek a teacher that can transfer Awakening to them, they want pointers - some Enlightened teachers eat meat - some wear red and some black.

 

If an Awakened Abiding and fairly settled teacher is called to teaching - it is not as one generally might assume - the teaching finds them.

 

And the teacher does not care / is not invested in the teaching or the students - it is not done from a bleeding heart. It simply comes out of the teaching. It is not cold and unfeeling but it is not invested and calculating nor driven.

 

Some teachers like or have attracted larger groups where certain teaching are more possible - some are teaching mostly one on one.

 

(bye the way - I was not implying trance in what you are relating)

 

The “friend” I mentioned is not a friend but rather an Awakened teacher that I met who has adopted KS but did not come from that lineage (in this life time).

 

I also teach Qi Gong in a space where another Awakened teacher teaches what you are speaking about. 

 

You appear to to have a relatively specific idea of what grace is and how “it can be used” - it does not appear through me as a means to an end and I have no ends in mind. There are no goals here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonesboy]

14 hours ago, Spotless said:

Teachers and sages find their way - or “their” way happens upon them. Who is to say what teaching is best for them to teach?

 

Quite a number of enlightened teachers were /are able to confer Awakening upon individuals and many have reported that they quit doing it in general because invariably it was premature to the student. 

 

Students assume all Enlughtened teachers have all the projections and misunderstandings  and pedestals that they “KNOW” they have while in fact they know nothing.

 

Some - many - students do not seek a teacher that can transfer Awakening to them, they want pointers - some Enlightened teachers eat meat - some wear red and some black.

 

If an Awakened Abiding and fairly settled teacher is called to teaching - it is not as one generally might assume - the teaching finds them.

 

And the teacher does not care / is not invested in the teaching or the students - it is not done from a bleeding heart. It simply comes out of the teaching. It is not cold and unfeeling but it is not invested and calculating nor driven.

 

Some teachers like or have attracted larger groups where certain teaching are more possible - some are teaching mostly one on one.

 

(bye the way - I was not implying trance in what you are relating)

 

The “friend” I mentioned is not a friend but rather an Awakened teacher that I met who has adopted KS but did not come from that lineage (in this life time).

 

I also teach Qi Gong in a space where another Awakened teacher teaches what you are speaking about. 

 

You appear to to have a relatively specific idea of what grace is and how “it can be used” - it does not appear through me as a means to an end and I have no ends in mind. There are no goals here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Hi Spotless,

 

Again I think we are running a little in circles because of the undefined terms being used.

 

Quote

Quite a number of enlightened teachers were /are able to confer Awakening upon individuals and many have reported that they quit doing it in general because invariably it was premature to the student. 

 

I asked you earlier what Awakened meant and you said the following.

 

Quote

In some cases it would mean Enlightenment as defined as the end of suffering, the end of fear, the destruction of ego.

 

 

 

An abiding presence in intuitive awareness and what some have termed the un-grasped state. 

 

A state in which the investment in one’s personhood and egoism / habituations has ceased and Self - Divine Essence - Presence In The Moment  has come forth and one is abiding in this awareness.

 

 

If someone is directly introduced to that how can it be premature? Did they have suffering, were they still in the ego?  Such comments to me sounds more like someone was sending energy, the person had a big wow moment from it and was left with an overload from all the extra energy hitting upon the obstructions left over from the transmission.

 

Quote

 

 

Some - many - students do not seek a teacher that can transfer Awakening to them, they want pointers - some Enlightened teachers eat meat - some wear red and some black.

 

If an Awakened Abiding and fairly settled teacher is called to teaching - it is not as one generally might assume - the teaching finds them.

 

 

I would agree some students don't which is why an enlightened teachers in the past have taught to the students capacity.

 

The teachings flow from the lineage. If they have realized and are transmitting the lineage it is from them that the teachings arise from. Would not new teachings sprout forth, much like Buddhism?

 

Quote

You appear to to have a relatively specific idea of what grace is and how “it can be used” - it does not appear through me as a means to an end and I have no ends in mind. There are no goals here.

 

I do have a pretty solid view on it, how it is realized, flows out into the world and by doing so can change peoples lives. My view is pretty much summed up here.

 

33. Jesus said, "What you will hear in your ear, in the other ear proclaim from your rooftops. After all, no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, nor does one put it in a hidden place. Rather, one puts it on a lampstand so that all who come and go will see its light."

 

I am sorry, I feel like I am derailing your thread on lineages.

 

Thank you for your insight.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Wu Ming Jen]

My linage is a new one only 700 years unbroken. When  a practitioner becomes more realized the ancient text become very clear they are describing experience and the underling building blocks of the universe.

 

It is like the first time we read the DDJ and when we read it again many years later we have a better understanding exceptionally when the principles are learned physically. The communication of body and mind is feeling not word format.

 

When philosophy does not have any applications it is just mind clutter and worthless.

 

How do we apply what is true into everyday activities when  self and art becomes one. we realize the same principles apply to every field and skill set. I am not going to build someone a house I have zero hours in house building. I could build a crude structure for survival based on the WAY things work. 

[MIchael80]

On 14.1.2019 at 10:11 PM, Spotless said:

It is very different from “experiences” in general. I have had many of what would be called mystical experiences but Awakening is very different - if anything it would be somewhat close to taking mushrooms and morphine together but much more intense and sustained and beautiful.

This has been more of the "experience" here: (quoted)......and because of that i do not like the true awakening talk.

 

Awareness of Presence
or "Transcendental Consciousness" is the experience of expanded alert awareness along with profound peace and silence, either in the environment in activity, or deep within during silent meditation.  There can be the feeling of detachment from the body/mind.  It is a fourth definite state of consciousness unlike waking, dream or sleep.  It is a precursor to the actual shift to Self-remembrance.  Transcendental Consciousness is being awake to the silent peace and stillness that is the true nature of the Self.  There can be many degrees of intensity and various levels of witnessing in trancendental consciousness, but the clear recognition by the Self of the Self has not yet occurred.  There are millions of people around the world today experiencing varying degrees of presence consciousness.  

States of Consciousness
'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness.  It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness.  There are distinct perspectivess of Consciousness of itself as it becomes more awake its total reality, and there are many levels of clarity of refined perception within each state.  These states cannot be missed.  Experience, knowledge, perception and reality are completely different in each, even though Consiousness always remains the same One Consciousness. 

Cosmic Consciousness
or "Self Realization" is awakening to being Pure Consciousness itself.  It is the first stage of Enlightenment.  It is a very profound shift in your sense of being and existing, the sense of who you are.  The sense of Self shifts from being the person you think you are, to being the unbounded field of Awareness itself in which the person and all perceptions exist. You discover that there is no separate individual sense of self at all.  The separate individual self was an illusion that happened as a result of conditioning and the false identification with the individual body/mind.  Your real Self has always been unbounded, infinite and free all along.  


It is not an altered state of Consciousness.  It is Being Consciousness Itself -- what you really have always been.  It is not a temporary experience; it is a natural, permanent state of being.  The innermost self awakens to the unboundedness of its Self and finds itself to be the silent source of everything everywhere.  Even though this feels like the final step and there is nowhere else to go, it is actually only the first step in the unfoldment of Consciousness to itself.  

Refined Perception in Cosmic Consciousness
or "God Realization" is Consciousness' refined perception of its nature as the process of experiencing.  It is the perception of the flow of divine intelligence responsible for all experience.   The underlying mechanics of the process of creation is revealed.  It is the experience of the flow of intelligence responsible for all thinking, feeling, perceiving, experiencing, and all form and phenomena everywhere in your entire field of perception.  The cosmic dimension of the individual mind/body is revealed.  It is a continually deepening process of refinement and unfoldment taking place perpetually within Consciousness, though experienced differently in each state.  The shift to unity Consciousness and beyond can happen prior to the full unfoldment of the depth of experience of refined perception.

Unity Consciousness
or "Oneness" happens when the Self, the subject and unbounded underlying essence of all things, awakens to itself as being the objects and phenomena of experience on the surface of life.  It is a transition from being the unbounded field in which everything thing is happening , to being everything everywhere in the range of perception and experience.  "Consciousness is everything everywhere, and I am that Consciousness".  The unbounded subject has remembered itself to also be all objects of perception. They are One.  The unboundedness of the Self has entered into the mind, body, and environment.  All objects in the surroundings, while remaining the same from the perspective of the senses, are experienced as my Self.  The world is no longer an object in Consciousness.  It is Consciousness itself.  It is my Self.  It is the oneness of experiencer, process of experiencing and objects of experience.   

All of the apparent boundaries in the world are found to be my own Consciousness in appearance.  From this perspective, the world is experienced to be even more real, because it is constructed out of the material of Consciousness itself, out of my own unbounded Self.  The environment is now seen as pure unmodified Consciousness in the guise of the objective modifications of body, world and universe.  It is not that the world and universe are seen to be an illusion.  The illusion is that the world and universe is an objcetive physical reality. It has always been Consciousness itself, my own Self, pure subjectivity.  There is no longer any distinction between inner or outer.  The outer is the inner, the inner is the outer.  Everything everywhere is my Self.  "I" am all that there is.  

Refined Perception Within Unity Consciousness
or "Unity in God Consciousness" is a further refinement of perception from the perspective of being everything.  Consciousness awakens, with further clarity, to the underlying mechanics of creation and experience.  It awakens to the subtle mechanics of its own innate intelligence that is responsible for creating the appearance of all life everywhere.  It is the same shift in perception mentioned above, to experiencing the refined cosmic dimension of the feelings, intellect, mind, body, personality, senses, and all objects of experience; but it is experienced from an entirely different perspective now, one of wholeness, of being all that is.  It is experiencing the flow of finer flavours and layers of intelligence within the wholeness of Self.  It is Consciousness awakening to its internal dynamics as the perpetual flow of itself experiencing itself.  It is the experience of the ultimate reality of the depth of the Self, the totality of Consciousness, and it is all Divine.

Beyond Consciousness
or "Brahman Consciousness" is a perspective prior to Consciousness, prior to Intelligence and prior to existence itself.  It is neither Self nor non-Self, neither Existence nor non-Existence, neither Being nor non-Being, neither Consciousness nor non-Consciousness.  It is the clearest experience of Reality.  Words like universe, multi-verse, Absolute, Totality, Self, God, Being, Presence, Pure Consciousness cannot touch it.  It is beyond description.  It is pure Nothingness.  From this perspective; the body/mind, the world and the universe are not just an illusion, they have never even come into existence.  The ultimate reality of something made from nothing, is nothing, not something.  The word "nothing" does not do justice to the supreme peace, perfect equanimity, unlimited freedom and total knowledge that It is.  It is truly indescribable.  It is exclusively self-evident to itself alone.  

Refined Perception Beyond Consciousness
or "Refined Brahman Consciousness" is a completely different perspective of the same refinement of perception that is perpetually happening in Consciousness.  But, because it is prior to Consciousness itself, there is no perceiver, no perceiving and no perceptio in the same sense.  It is perpetually swelling in all the same divine flavours and qualities of wholeness and love as experienced previously, only in a finer more exquisite delicacy and fullness, prior to differentiation or distinction.  It is the subtle intentention within nothingness to know itself.  It is Pure Divine Power.  From this perspective, the effect--Consciousness itself, and the creative intelligence inherent in Consciousness which is responsible for the appearance of creation, is also uncaused; and as such, so too is all creation.  It is beyond all understanding. 

 

Supreme Reality

Another shift to an even deeper perspective occurs in this state when that Nothingness recognizes that divine power as its own pure Supreme Divinity that has been cloaked in the appearance of creation.  That supreme divinity is the ultimate cause of all causes.  It creates and appears as the sense of Being, Consciousness or Self; all divine creative intelligence, and all creation.  It is pure divine radience.  Refinement of perception of the universal body/mind continues in this state.

Edited January 17, 2019 by MIchael80

[ilumairen]

4 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

If someone is directly introduced to that how can it be premature? Did they have suffering, were they still in the ego?  Such comments to me sounds more like someone was sending energy, the person had a big wow moment from it and was left with an overload from all the extra energy hitting upon the obstructions left over from the transmission.

 

 

Perhaps finding oneself for a brief moment without ego could be a bit like the popularized nightmare of finding oneself naked while surrounded by clothed others? 

 

Perhaps some people aren't ready to face the world in all their naked glory? 

 

[Jonesboy]

33 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Perhaps finding oneself for a brief moment without ego could be a bit like the popularized nightmare of finding oneself naked while surrounded by clothed others? 

 

Perhaps some people aren't ready to face the world in all their naked glory? 

 

 

Perhaps, but if one is scared of what they are experiencing, wouldn't that mean they are still within ego?

 

I see your point but from what I see is it is more of a progression, a gradual releasing of obstructions, a clearing away. Yes, even those big releases for some can be very scary. Everyone is different in how they will react to it.

[ilumairen]

6 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Perhaps, but if one is scared of what they are experiencing, wouldn't that mean they are still within ego?

 

Maybe the fear comes after?

 

6 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

I see your point but from what I see is it is more of a progression, a gradual releasing of obstructions, a clearing away. Yes, even those big releases for some can be very scary. Everyone is different in how they will react to it.

 

[Spotless]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

Perhaps finding oneself for a brief moment without ego could be a bit like the popularized nightmare of finding oneself naked while surrounded by clothed others? 

 

Perhaps some people aren't ready to face the world in all their naked glory? 

 

Awakening is very much like this - except that one is utterly uncompromised or embarrassed - one is entirely liberated from such fear. And it is no brief moment - it is so completely ongoing with all the push and pull of personhood gone.

[Jonesboy]

7 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Maybe the fear comes after?

 

 

 

I would agree.

 

I have talked to people that experienced quite mind, the gap between thoughts and thought they experienced emptiness.. it scared the heck out of them. I know others who have gone into the gap since childhood but think that is it. Nothing more beyond that Pure Presence it was coined to me.

 

People that have experienced silence that was mind numbing along with an expansive feeling and thought they had realized the Self.

 

I have talked to people who think they are Gods, fight demons and have cupid sons in the astral plane..

 

Know a lot of people that experience mindfulness in daily life and think they are enlightened. Know others that can transmit energy that can be felt by others and think they are master.

 

Lot's of traps, dead ends and fear.

[Spotless]

6 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

If someone is directly introduced to that how can it be premature? Did they have suffering, were they still in the ego?  Such comments to me sounds more like someone was sending energy, the person had a big wow moment from it and was left with an overload from all the extra energy hitting upon the obstructions left over from the transmission.

  Adyashanti is among several who have related this - that they can and have but now rarely Awaken someone by touch or direct transmission any longer - you may not consider him Awake or of a high enough level - but even so - the change is simply NOT what your findings and studies would lead you to believe - until it occurs - and then you will see how disorienting it can be - and how far from the words and concepts the experience is.

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I would agree some students don't which is why an enlightened teachers in the past have taught to the students capacity.

And so in the group setting you have spoken of several times - a teacher would appear to need to know the group relatively quite well but it appears you were wondering if a teacher might just get them together and take them “there”. 

 

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I do have a pretty solid view on it, how it is realized, flows out into the world and by doing so can change peoples lives. My view is pretty much summed up here.

Actually - you have a very solid concept- and all in all it is very good - yet light years from actual understanding. 

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33. Jesus said, "What you will hear in your ear, in the other ear proclaim from your rooftops. After all, no one lights a lamp and puts it under a basket, nor does one put it in a hidden place. Rather, one puts it on a lampstand so that all who come and go will see its light."

Such a beautiful passage - it can be taken in so many ways.

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I am sorry, I feel like I am derailing your thread on lineages.

It has been a bit sideways but the conversation has been interesting and if it were to be kept entirely on Target I would have done this as a personal folder and related to you privately.

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Thank you for your insight.

Thank you for participating in earnest.

 

Awakening is not something that is a physical object - nor is it a mind space- it is extremely easy to read vast amounts of literature on this and meditate for years and abtain to a considerable degree and believe in all sorts of things well founded in one’s discoveries and machinations.

 

It is extremely possible to become quite lost in all of this and appear quite lost, possibly misguided, completely nuts and institutionalized.

 

It also happens that some that have actually Awoken and came to Abide in a beautiful and very full Awakened Presence have been institutionalized for a time in the beginning - because of the disorienting and unrecognizable “new” state of Beingness. Even in many cases wherein the experience was beautiful and the person was not a threat to himself or anyone else - they were just bewildered and in many cases simply contacting normal channels in order to understand why they were suddenly and for so long completely without compunction to DO and had lost all interest in many of their previous passions.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Spotless

[dwai]

imho there are two aspects to awakening. One is the direct experience beyond the mind (Aparoksha jnana or Paurusha Jnana). The other is the assimilation of said awakening in an intellectual/mental framework (paroksha jnana or bauddha jnana). One without the other is incomplete.

 

Lineages come into play here. They might first lead to Direct experience via psychosomatic/energetic work and subsequently the "how, what where's" become apparent by studying/introspecting/meditating (e.g. Daoism, Kashmir Shaivism, Vajrachara). The other approach is also possible with presentation of the framework first through which one seeks understanding and clarity, progressively peeling away the onion until they are left with the core/kernel (e.g. Advaita Vedanta, Zen Buddhism etc).  

 

IMHO,  it possible for someone who has awakened to cross lineages (drop or adopt one or another)? I think many awakened masters do exactly that. Ramana Maharshi is an example. He spontaneously awakened and then through the period that he held a body, he taught via various means (Advaita vedanta, Shaiva siddhantas, Tantra, etc). 

 

 

 

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

  Adyashanti is among several who have related this - that they can and have but now rarely Awaken someone by touch or direct transmission any longer - you may not consider him Awake or of a high enough level - but even so - the change is simply NOT what your findings and studies would lead you to believe - until it occurs - and then you will see how disorienting it can be - and how far from the words and concepts the experience is.

And so in the group setting you have spoken of several times - a teacher would appear to need to know the group relatively quite well but it appears you were wondering if a teacher might just get them together and take them “there”. 

 

Actually - you have a very solid concept- and all in all it is very good - yet light years from actual understanding. 

Such a beautiful passage - it can be taken in so many ways.

It has been a bit sideways but the conversation has been interesting and if it were to be kept entirely on Target I would have done this as a personal folder and related to you privately.

Thank you for participating in earnest.

 

Awakening is not something that is a physical object - nor is it a mind space- it is extremely easy to read vast amounts of literature on this and meditate for years and abtain to a considerable degree and believe in all sorts of things well founded in one’s discoveries and machinations.

 

It is extremely possible to become quite lost in all of this and appear quite lost, possibly misguided, completely nuts and institutionalized.

 

It also happens that some that have actually Awoken and came to Abide in a beautiful and very full Awakened Presence have been institutionalized for a time in the beginning - because of the disorienting and unrecognizable “new” state of Beingness. Even in many cases wherein the experience was beautiful and the person was not a threat to himself or anyone else - they were just bewildered and in many cases simply contacting normal channels in order to understand why they were suddenly and for so long completely without compunction to DO and had lost all interest in many of their previous passions.

 

 

 

Thank you Spotless,

 

Our understanding of what Awakening is, is very different. I also don't think Adyashanti is enlightened or awakened or can even come close to what is being described.

 

Kind of helps to explain our differences in view.

 

All the best