Lineages- old and new

Jonesboy · January 17, 2019

20 minutes ago, dwai said:

imho there are two aspects to awakening. One is the direct experience beyond the mind (Aparoksha jnana or Paurusha Jnana). The other is the assimilation of said awakening in an intellectual/mental framework (paroksha jnana or bauddha jnana). One without the other is incomplete.

Lineages come into play here. They might first lead to Direct experience via psychosomatic/energetic work and subsequently the "how, what where's" become apparent by studying/introspecting/meditating (e.g. Daoism, Kashmir Shaivism, Vajrachara). The other approach is also possible with presentation of the framework first through which one seeks understanding and clarity, progressively peeling away the onion until they are left with the core/kernel (e.g. Advaita Vedanta, Zen Buddhism etc).

IMHO, it possible for someone who has awakened to cross lineages (drop or adopt one or another)? I think many awakened masters do exactly that. Ramana Maharshi is an example. He spontaneously awakened and then through the period that he held a body, he taught via various means (Advaita vedanta, Shaiva siddhantas, Tantra, etc).

I agree it is possible as well, just debating some details about it is all with Spotless.

dwai · January 17, 2019

1 hour ago, Jonesboy said:

Lot's of traps, dead ends and fear.

Best approach might be to quietly be.

The sun doesn't go to people to illuminate. An awakened one will enlighten just by being.

Jonesboy · January 17, 2019

55 minutes ago, dwai said:

Best approach might be to quietly be.

The sun doesn't go to people to illuminate. An awakened one will enlighten just by being.

Very, very true. Yet, sometimes you throw out some seeds.

Jesus said, "Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure."

Spotless · January 17, 2019

On 1/13/2019 at 11:19 AM, Spotless said:

It is interesting to read and listen to Awakened teachers that have come from a long established lineage as well as teachers that have Awakened and then adopted a long established lineage as their teaching.

It is also interesting to see Awakened teachers using their own words from the present and often changing the typical fashion of going about helping students to be pointed in practice and general sniffing around trying to get a clue what this “illusion” thing is all about.

There is no question that there are benefits to a great well established lineage. And it is very possible for an Awakened teacher to adopt a lineage in which they have no prior base.

But I am acutely aware that many of the past lineages of the very best and most productive sorts have wording and dogma that make it nearly impossible to clarify in a new students mind even the slightest whiff of what they are actually alluding to and teaching.

Some of the most refreshing and superb Awakened teachers are uncompromisingly direct and clarify the “project” of Awakening so simply and so well that by comparison many extraordinary old lineages appear to actually create more detours than road maps by entailing incalculable destinations and using words and structures of teaching that are basically misleading by their vary exactness.

I am not starting this topic with any objection - it is a remembrance that when I Awoke the experience was so utterly and completely unlike anything I had read anywhere in the great ancient traditions that I was completely unsure of what had transpired.

And it is in this remembrance that this topic is created.

I am from the “long” traditions - lots of practice and the idea that perhaps in ten lifetimes you might Awaken - they are in many ways as perfect as they are full of bullshit.

Yet some of the emerging short forms - particularly those engineering

quick Awakening are also very questionable.

But some new teachings are very clear and offer real lasting abiding Awakening from simple yet strong well worded contemporary guidance.

What cannot be expressed very clearly to many reading this is that once Awakened some stupidly simple teachings are clearly seen to be among the very best teachings to Awaken and some of the most superb and complex lineages make it nearly impossible to see the Forrest through the trees.

Some seemingly very simple Awakened teachers are unquestionably the best pointers to truth and best practices for Awakening to Self, while some of the most authoritative Awakened teachers from some of the oldest and finest lineages are simply so immersed in initiations and transmissions and proper progress that they have put the cart before the horse to a great extent - as though teaching post Awakening work is best done prior to Awakening.

It is tempting to utilize an old and wonderful lineage as an Awakened person considering or being brought into teaching - everything is already laid out and easily tweaked where one would like and students can plug into the tradition.

It can also radically slow further progress in one’s post Awakened unfolding.

And deep within one Awakened can wonder if teaching is what will be happening if at all.

I also partly bring this up because of how brutally some “advanced” seekers judge “simple teachers” who are often obviously to those Awake of the highest attainment and often speak little from any lineage at all.

I thought a reposting of the original post might be helpful.

what interests me is the wording

I have no doubt that a teacher can use an existing lineage that is or is not his/her original - and certainly many such as Ramana utilized several lineages and teachings that worked in the present.

The voice of words is more the interest- not “pretty” language but generally in the little things:

We had another person here who Awoke - I cant say for sure but I think it was Dawg - many liked what he wrote which is great and we can still pull some of it up here. He used Conscious and Subconscious as primary words in his teaching. It was very well done and clear to me what he was saying - but it was also clear to me that those words we incredibly poor choices for conveying what he was saying to those as yet Un-Awakened.

Stillness is a beautiful concept but in most teaching it conveys to the reader something quite different than what is trying to be conveyed. It is a very good word as is Silence but both are equally misunderstood by the lay reader or monk or mystic in general prior to Awakening.

It is with this in mind that what is quite refreshing and effective is the utilization of newness in contemporary teachers. Not for the sake of newness or being original - but simply taking a bit of time to remember just how much they were so far off in the experience of coming to abide in Self and the prior concepts that they had formulated and often walled themselves in further with.

There are no accounts that I am aware of (in this now) where the Awoken later expresses how it was even remotely how they thought it would be. And very very very very frequently they report a sort of astonishing but very disorienting experience.

Assume whatever you wish regarding whether you think I am Awake or deluded - that’s fine. And it is true that some words and teachings work for some while others require something else - and some simply need religion and faith.

It still remains and perhaps it always will remain that the pointings will be many miles from the mark - but this does not appear to be the case - as quite a few new teachers are pointing with new words and approaches and they are speaking more clearly and the results are at far greater levels than we have seen in centuries and perhaps all of known history - though this new efficacy is being seen everywhere in a true teachings.

Again - you may think I’m nuts - and for those that need to argue that please just let us be here. For those that completely understand what I am saying and for those interested, I am interested in discussion on this.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Spotless

dwai · January 17, 2019

3 minutes ago, Spotless said:

I thought a reposting of the original post might be helpful.

what interests me is the wording

I have no doubt that a teacher can use an existing lineage that is or is not his/her original - and certainly many such as Ramana utilized several lineages and teachings that worked in the present.

The voice of words is more the interest- not “pretty” language but generally in the little things:

We had another person here who Awoke - I cant say for sure but I think it was Dawg - many liked what he wrote which is great and we can still pull some of it up here. He used Conscious and Subconscious as primary words in his teaching. It was very well done and clear to me what he was saying - but it was also clear to me that those words we incredibly poor choices for conveying what he was saying to those as yet Un-Awakened.

Stillness is a beautiful concept but in most teaching it conveys to the reader something quite different than what is trying to be conveyed. It is a very good word as is Stillness but both are equally misunderstood by the lay reader or monk or mystic in general prior to Awakening.

I can relate to this. The result was that I just laughed when I realized what it was that I was searching for...it was sitting right "under my nose" (so to speak)!

I find that over-cleverness and over-romanticizing these teachings is natural for most seekers. When the seeking ends, it becomes clear that the answers were always direct and clear and no parables or riddles were meant at all. It is just that the mind and intellect in its habit of cleverness tried to make the simple teaching into an intellectual exercise.

I see this with many of my master's students (who also go to other teachers for supplemental teachings) even today. Many even quit saying that he doesn't know how to teach. But his words were always direct and coming from a place of direct experience. All we had to do is drop the mentation and the teaching spontaneously manifested within (and in our experience).

wandelaar · January 17, 2019

38 minutes ago, Spotless said:

It is with this in mind that what is quite refreshing and effective is the utilization of newness in contemporary teachers. Not for the sake of newness or being original - but simply taking a bit of time to remember just how much they were so far off in the experience of coming to abide in Self and the prior concepts that they had formulated and often walled themselves in further with.

It would help if you could post a link to a talk on You Tube be some such contemporary teacher as an example.

Spotless · January 18, 2019

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

It would help if you could post a link to a talk on You Tube be some such contemporary teacher as an example.

Go to Buddha at the Gas Pump

BatGap.com

I suggest trying 10 or 20 in Podcast form so you simply hear their words.

doc benway · January 18, 2019

On 1/13/2019 at 2:19 PM, Spotless said:

I am not starting this topic with any objection - it is a remembrance that when I Awoke the experience was so utterly and completely unlike anything I had read anywhere in the great ancient traditions that I was completely unsure of what had transpired.

3 hours ago, Spotless said:

There are no accounts that I am aware of (in this now) where the Awoken later expresses how it was even remotely how they thought it would be. And very very very very frequently they report a sort of astonishing but very disorienting experience.

My initial experience of awakening was completely unexpected, completely unlike anything I'd ever read or could have anticipated, and yet I somehow knew precisely what had transpired. I felt it deep in my bones, no room whatsoever for questions or doubt.

On the other hand it was also disorienting, particularly in trying to carry on with my family and professional life. The lack of conceptual context created sort of a cognitive dissonance between the discursive "me" and the abiding nature. Reconciling and integrating the self-awareness with mundane responsibility and obligations became challenging at times. Priorities changed but I wasn't ready or willing to give up my family and professional obligations. I knew there was room and validity for both the relative and absolute.

Years later I encountered a teacher who was able to help me with that integration. The beauty is that it happened almost completely non-verbally and non-conceptually. I came to him looking for help contextualizing and integrating my experience. He told me almost nothing in words but his manner, his openness, his warmth and genuine caring caused something in me to click in a very profound way, bridging the relative and absolute through openness of the heart.

mrpasserby · January 18, 2019

2 hours ago, Spotless said:

Go to Buddha at the Gas Pump

BatGap.com

I suggest trying 10 or 20 in Podcast form so you simply hear their words.

I have really enjoined many of the things that you have posted in this thread. But when I looked into Buddha at the Gas Pump, I was given an expectation that you are teaching ascension. I do not like being a nay sayer, and I try to support everyone's efforts at walking their own path/way.

My question is if you are teaching ascension then where is the information about the practices leading up to creating a fully functional spirit body to ascend into?

Edited January 18, 2019 by mrpasserby
clarifying information

Apech · January 18, 2019

2 hours ago, mrpasserby said:

I have really enjoined many of the things that you have posted in this thread. But when I looked into Buddha at the Gas Pump, I was given an expectation that you are teaching ascension. I do not like being a nay sayer, and I try to support everyone's efforts at walking their own path/way.

My question is if you are teaching ascension then where is the information about the practices leading up to creating a fully functional spirit body to ascend into?

Not sure what you mean by ascension - and each to his own of course - but I would fill up quickly at the gas pump and drive on

wandelaar · January 18, 2019

5 hours ago, Spotless said:

Go to Buddha at the Gas Pump

BatGap.com

I suggest trying 10 or 20 in Podcast form so you simply hear their words.

I already listened to some of those some time ago. I found them interesting as far as they described their actual experiences. But unhappily their interpretations were of the usual non dualistic dogmatic type where mind or consciousness was posed as the foundation of everything else. I have heard the preaching of this fashionable but unfounded doctrine so many times now, that I thought it wiser to simply quit listening and resume with my daily business.

Edited January 18, 2019 by wandelaar

Jeff · January 18, 2019

11 hours ago, steve said:

My initial experience of awakening was completely unexpected, completely unlike anything I'd ever read or could have anticipated, and yet I somehow knew precisely what had transpired. I felt it deep in my bones, no room whatsoever for questions or doubt.

On the other hand it was also disorienting, particularly in trying to carry on with my family and professional life. The lack of conceptual context created sort of a cognitive dissonance between the discursive "me" and the abiding nature. Reconciling and integrating the self-awareness with mundane responsibility and obligations became challenging at times. Priorities changed but I wasn't ready or willing to give up my family and professional obligations. I knew there was room and validity for both the relative and absolute.

Years later I encountered a teacher who was able to help me with that integration. The beauty is that it happened almost completely non-verbally and non-conceptually. I came to him looking for help contextualizing and integrating my experience. He told me almost nothing in words but his manner, his openness, his warmth and genuine caring caused something in me to click in a very profound way, bridging the relative and absolute through openness of the heart.

Very beautiful and thank you for sharing. I am sure his natural radiance helped with you finding a better energetic balance. People often get stuck in a more receptive mode and it can be very overwhelming.

Spotless · January 18, 2019

18 hours ago, wandelaar said:

It would help if you could post a link to a talk on You Tube be some such contemporary teacher as an example.

When I suggested BatGap is was with the idea of the opportunity to hear now nearly 500 accounts of “ordinary” people that have Awoken.

Time after time they explain in practically the same way what Steve, Dwai and myself have experienced.

15 hours ago, steve said:

My initial experience of awakening was completely unexpected, completely unlike anything I'd ever read or could have anticipated, and yet I somehow knew precisely what had transpired. I felt it deep in my bones, no room whatsoever for questions or doubt.

On the other hand it was also disorienting, particularly in trying to carry on with my family and professional life. The lack of conceptual context created sort of a cognitive dissonance between the discursive "me" and the abiding nature. Reconciling and integrating the self-awareness with mundane responsibility and obligations became challenging at times. Priorities changed but I wasn't ready or willing to give up my family and professional obligations. I knew there was room and validity for both the relative and absolute.

With slight variations these would be my exact words and I’m certain this is true for Dwai and it is easy to see from then on what is actually being said in so many teachings.

In the batgap interviews many variations are discovered but there are quite a few underlying common element that lead to the awakening.

And it is clear in their language if they have in fact Awakened - there a few in which they have not - but very few other than some where the interview was simply an interview with “an interesting person”.

The negative reaction is a testament to just how much judgement is set off upon this stuff and how far off seekers are prior to Awakening.

18 hours ago, dwai said:

I can relate to this. The result was that I just laughed when I realized what it was that I was searching for...it was sitting right "under my nose" (so to speak)!

I find that over-cleverness and over-romanticizing these teachings is natural for most seekers. When the seeking ends, it becomes clear that the answers were always direct and clear and no parables or riddles were meant at all. It is just that the mind and intellect in its habit of cleverness tried to make the simple teaching into an intellectual exercise.

I see this with many of my master's students (who also go to other teachers for supplemental teachings) even today. Many even quit saying that he doesn't know how to teach. But his words were always direct and coming from a place of direct experience. All we had to do is drop the mentation and the teaching spontaneously manifested within (and in our experience).

This is perfect 😎

Students walk in and out of these teachings all day with solid rock walls of “understanding” and EXPECTATION. The wilfulness is thick and the ear wax like epoxy.

-

Steve mentions a perfect simple bond with a teacher where little is said - I have had two teachers in my path and my relationship was nearly identical to his words. My most recent current teacher speaks no English - it was is never needed.

Michael80 shared this - without any reference to who wrote it:

Awareness of Presence
or "Transcendental Consciousness" is the experience of expanded alert awareness along with profound peace and silence, either in the environment in activity, or deep within during silent meditation. There can be the feeling of detachment from the body/mind. It is a fourth definite state of consciousness unlike waking, dream or sleep. It is a precursor to the actual shift to Self-remembrance. Transcendental Consciousness is being awake to the silent peace and stillness that is the true nature of the Self. There can be many degrees of intensity and various levels of witnessing in trancendental consciousness, but the clear recognition by the Self of the Self has not yet occurred. There are millions of people around the world today experiencing varying degrees of presence consciousness.

States of Consciousness
'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness. It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness. There are distinct perspectivess of Consciousness of itself as it becomes more awake its total reality, and there are many levels of clarity of refined perception within each state. These states cannot be missed. Experience, knowledge, perception and reality are completely different in each, even though Consiousness always remains the same One Consciousness.

Cosmic Consciousness
or "Self Realization" is awakening to being Pure Consciousness itself. It is the first stage of Enlightenment. It is a very profound shift in your sense of being and existing, the sense of who you are. The sense of Self shifts from being the person you think you are, to being the unbounded field of Awareness itself in which the person and all perceptions exist. You discover that there is no separate individual sense of self at all. The separate individual self was an illusion that happened as a result of conditioning and the false identification with the individual body/mind. Your real Self has always been unbounded, infinite and free all along.

It is not an altered state of Consciousness. It is Being Consciousness Itself -- what you really have always been. It is not a temporary experience; it is a natural, permanent state of being. The innermost self awakens to the unboundedness of its Self and finds itself to be the silent source of everything everywhere. Even though this feels like the final step and there is nowhere else to go, it is actually only the first step in the unfoldment of Consciousness to itself.

Refined Perception in Cosmic Consciousness
or "God Realization" is Consciousness' refined perception of its nature as the process of experiencing. It is the perception of the flow of divine intelligence responsible for all experience. The underlying mechanics of the process of creation is revealed. It is the experience of the flow of intelligence responsible for all thinking, feeling, perceiving, experiencing, and all form and phenomena everywhere in your entire field of perception. The cosmic dimension of the individual mind/body is revealed. It is a continually deepening process of refinement and unfoldment taking place perpetually within Consciousness, though experienced differently in each state. The shift to unity Consciousness and beyond can happen prior to the full unfoldment of the depth of experience of refined perception.

Unity Consciousness
or "Oneness" happens when the Self, the subject and unbounded underlying essence of all things, awakens to itself as being the objects and phenomena of experience on the surface of life. It is a transition from being the unbounded field in which everything thing is happening , to being everything everywhere in the range of perception and experience. "Consciousness is everything everywhere, and I am that Consciousness". The unbounded subject has remembered itself to also be all objects of perception. They are One. The unboundedness of the Self has entered into the mind, body, and environment. All objects in the surroundings, while remaining the same from the perspective of the senses, are experienced as my Self. The world is no longer an object in Consciousness. It is Consciousness itself. It is my Self. It is the oneness of experiencer, process of experiencing and objects of experience.

All of the apparent boundaries in the world are found to be my own Consciousness in appearance. From this perspective, the world is experienced to be even more real, because it is constructed out of the material of Consciousness itself, out of my own unbounded Self. The environment is now seen as pure unmodified Consciousness in the guise of the objective modifications of body, world and universe. It is not that the world and universe are seen to be an illusion. The illusion is that the world and universe is an objcetive physical reality. It has always been Consciousness itself, my own Self, pure subjectivity. There is no longer any distinction between inner or outer. The outer is the inner, the inner is the outer. Everything everywhere is my Self. "I" am all that there is.

Refined Perception Within Unity Consciousness
or "Unity in God Consciousness" is a further refinement of perception from the perspective of being everything. Consciousness awakens, with further clarity, to the underlying mechanics of creation and experience. It awakens to the subtle mechanics of its own innate intelligence that is responsible for creating the appearance of all life everywhere. It is the same shift in perception mentioned above, to experiencing the refined cosmic dimension of the feelings, intellect, mind, body, personality, senses, and all objects of experience; but it is experienced from an entirely different perspective now, one of wholeness, of being all that is. It is experiencing the flow of finer flavours and layers of intelligence within the wholeness of Self. It is Consciousness awakening to its internal dynamics as the perpetual flow of itself experiencing itself. It is the experience of the ultimate reality of the depth of the Self, the totality of Consciousness, and it is all Divine.

Beyond Consciousness
or "Brahman Consciousness" is a perspective prior to Consciousness, prior to Intelligence and prior to existence itself. It is neither Self nor non-Self, neither Existence nor non-Existence, neither Being nor non-Being, neither Consciousness nor non-Consciousness. It is the clearest experience of Reality. Words like universe, multi-verse, Absolute, Totality, Self, God, Being, Presence, Pure Consciousness cannot touch it. It is beyond description. It is pure Nothingness. From this perspective; the body/mind, the world and the universe are not just an illusion, they have never even come into existence. The ultimate reality of something made from nothing, is nothing, not something. The word "nothing" does not do justice to the supreme peace, perfect equanimity, unlimited freedom and total knowledge that It is. It is truly indescribable. It is exclusively self-evident to itself alone.

Refined Perception Beyond Consciousness
or "Refined Brahman Consciousness" is a completely different perspective of the same refinement of perception that is perpetually happening in Consciousness. But, because it is prior to Consciousness itself, there is no perceiver, no perceiving and no perceptio in the same sense. It is perpetually swelling in all the same divine flavours and qualities of wholeness and love as experienced previously, only in a finer more exquisite delicacy and fullness, prior to differentiation or distinction. It is the subtle intentention within nothingness to know itself. It is Pure Divine Power. From this perspective, the effect--Consciousness itself, and the creative intelligence inherent in Consciousness which is responsible for the appearance of creation, is also uncaused; and as such, so too is all creation. It is beyond all understanding.

Supreme Reality

Another shift to an even deeper perspective occurs in this state when that Nothingness recognizes that divine power as its own pure Supreme Divinity that has been cloaked in the appearance of creation. That supreme divinity is the ultimate cause of all causes. It creates and appears as the sense of Being, Consciousness or Self; all divine creative intelligence, and all creation. It is pure divine radience. Refinement of perception of the universal body/mind continues in this state.

Many of us here that have Awakened and not have considerable experience in the above. Some of us are far along in the above levels and know them well and without delusion. But talk of them on many levels is of no worth to the seeker and more often than not fills them with a sense that by careful reading they actually know something.

My daily experiences are outlandish but I’ve become sick of words like awesome, incredible, immense, limitless, vastness, unbounded, etc etc etc - But I have no other words for this constant expansion and absurd energies.

The first time I Awoke it knocked unconscious 3 other people in the room who only moments before were conversing with one another.

The energies we absolutely beyond any slight previous comprehension and made a massive kundalini experience seem like peanuts by comparison and yet it was sustained in utter beauty and stillness.

-

It does nothing for a seeker to hear most of this stuff prior to Awakening.

The basics of practice and the pointers to Awakening are the core of the teachings - they ARE the advanced stuff - (the secrets).

The seekers have it backwards - they want to get past the basics and piece together in concept what is waiting for them. Nothing is waiting for “them” but the death of “them ness”

Edited January 18, 2019 by Spotless

ilumairen · January 18, 2019

18 hours ago, Spotless said:

The voice of words is more the interest- not “pretty” language but generally in the little things:

My comment seems to have created a pretty little cloud. I don't always share a whole lot, and at the same time a sentence can include a whole mountain.

Three decades ago I was a teenager whose mother was suicidal and fluctuated (sometimes very rapidly) between loving and violent. One day I got off the bus to walk up the dead end road we lived on. The breeze touched my skin, and the thoughts fell away, the anxiety and fear fell away - everything I was holding fell away as the breeze danced across my skin.

Yes, everything shifted at that point. Soo very simple, and soo very plain..

And not anything I'd label enlightenment.

Years later I was given The Power of Now as a gift by someone who said they kept hearing my voice as they read the words of another. I thought Tolle used too many words. :lol:

There has been much unfolding since then, a few pitfalls I managed to stumble into. And some kind souls who offered a hand to guide me out. I've noticed one thing about my personal pitfalls, and that's that they become such due to the thoughts and stories I wrapped them in - even if the stories were pretty.

Quote

There are no accounts that I am aware of (in this now) where the Awoken later expresses how it was even remotely how they thought it would be. And very very very very frequently they report a sort of astonishing but very disorienting experience.

And this is important ..

Spotless · January 18, 2019

Mooji , Adyashanti, Tolle and Gangaji

are among a few Awakened teachers that speak unwaveringly to Awakening.

If you scoff do so with input of your choices of at least one living teacher who meets your criterion of Awakened.

i would bet that Dwai and Steve would both agree with me on the above - as shocking as that my be 😎

Amma is another one though I have read little of her and heard little but we had quite a time together once very briefly.

Spotless · January 18, 2019

.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Spotless

Spotless · January 18, 2019

6 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

My comment seems to have created a pretty little cloud. I don't always share a whole lot, and at the same time a sentence can include a whole mountain.

Three decades ago I was a teenager whose mother was suicidal and fluctuated (sometimes very rapidly) between loving and violent. One day I got off the bus to walk up the dead end road we lived on. The breeze touched my skin, and the thoughts fell away, the anxiety and fear fell away - everything I was holding fell away as the breeze danced across my skin.

Yes, everything shifted at that point. Soo very simple, and soo very plain..

And not anything I'd label enlightenment.

Years later I was given The Power of Now as a gift by someone who said they kept hearing my voice as they read the words of another. I thought Tolle used too many words.

There has been much unfolding since then, a few pitfalls I managed to stumble into. And some kind souls who offered a hand to guide me out. I've noticed one thing about my personal pitfalls, and that's that they become such due to the thoughts and stories I wrapped them in - even if the stories were pretty.

Beautiful 😎🙏

dwai · January 18, 2019

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

Mooji , Adyashanti, Tolle and Gangaji

are among a few Awakened teachers that speak unwaveringly to Awakening.

I've spent some time listening to Tolle and can clearly tell that he is speaking from the perspective of "awake-ness". I've not listened to the others much, but I do like Mooji.

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

If you scoff do so with input of your choices of at least one living teacher who meets your criterion of Awakened.

i would bet that Dwai and Steve would both agree with me on the above - as shocking as that my be 😎

For me one question posed by Papaji (in a YouTube video) brought things into perspective - "Without thinking, in a fraction of a second, tell me who you are"...that was a turning point in the process of self-inquiry for me.

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

Amma is another one though I have read little of her and heard little but we had quite a time together once very briefly.

Wow...yes Amma...what can I even say about her? I met her only once, spent one evening in her presence and it was magnificent. The love was like sunlight...warming me up and illuminating!

MIchael80 · January 19, 2019

16 hours ago, Spotless said:

When I suggested BatGap is was with the idea of the opportunity to hear now nearly 500 accounts of “ordinary” people that have Awoken.

Time after time they explain in practically the same way what Steve, Dwai and myself have experienced.

With slight variations these would be my exact words and I’m certain this is true for Dwai and it is easy to see from then on what is actually being said in so many teachings.

In the batgap interviews many variations are discovered but there are quite a few underlying common element that lead to the awakening.

And it is clear in their language if they have in fact Awakened - there a few in which they have not - but very few other than some where the interview was simply an interview with “an interesting person”.

The negative reaction is a testament to just how much judgement is set off upon this stuff and how far off seekers are prior to Awakening.

This is perfect 😎

Students walk in and out of these teachings all day with solid rock walls of “understanding” and EXPECTATION. The wilfulness is thick and the ear wax like epoxy.

-

Steve mentions a perfect simple bond with a teacher where little is said - I have had two teachers in my path and my relationship was nearly identical to his words. My most recent current teacher speaks no English - it was is never needed.

Michael80 shared this - without any reference to who wrote it:

Awareness of Presence
or "Transcendental Consciousness" is the experience of expanded alert awareness along with profound peace and silence, either in the environment in activity, or deep within during silent meditation. There can be the feeling of detachment from the body/mind. It is a fourth definite state of consciousness unlike waking, dream or sleep. It is a precursor to the actual shift to Self-remembrance.  Transcendental Consciousness is being awake to the silent peace and stillness that is the true nature of the Self. There can be many degrees of intensity and various levels of witnessing in trancendental consciousness, but the clear recognition by the Self of the Self has not yet occurred. There are millions of people around the world today experiencing varying degrees of presence consciousness.

States of Consciousness
'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness. It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness. There are distinct perspectivess of Consciousness of itself as it becomes more awake its total reality, and there are many levels of clarity of refined perception within each state. These states cannot be missed. Experience, knowledge, perception and reality are completely different in each, even though Consiousness always remains the same One Consciousness.

Cosmic Consciousness
or "Self Realization" is awakening to being Pure Consciousness itself. It is the first stage of Enlightenment. It is a very profound shift in your sense of being and existing, the sense of who you are. The sense of Self shifts from being the person you think you are, to being the unbounded field of Awareness itself in which the person and all perceptions exist. You discover that there is no separate individual sense of self at all. The separate individual self was an illusion that happened as a result of conditioning and the false identification with the individual body/mind. Your real Self has always been unbounded, infinite and free all along.

It is not an altered state of Consciousness. It is Being Consciousness Itself -- what you really have always been. It is not a temporary experience; it is a natural, permanent state of being. The innermost self awakens to the unboundedness of its Self and finds itself to be the silent source of everything everywhere. Even though this feels like the final step and there is nowhere else to go, it is actually only the first step in the unfoldment of Consciousness to itself.

Refined Perception in Cosmic Consciousness
or "God Realization" is Consciousness' refined perception of its nature as the process of experiencing. It is the perception of the flow of divine intelligence responsible for all experience.   The underlying mechanics of the process of creation is revealed. It is the experience of the flow of intelligence responsible for all thinking, feeling, perceiving, experiencing, and all form and phenomena everywhere in your entire field of perception. The cosmic dimension of the individual mind/body is revealed. It is a continually deepening process of refinement and unfoldment taking place perpetually within Consciousness, though experienced differently in each state. The shift to unity Consciousness and beyond can happen prior to the full unfoldment of the depth of experience of refined perception.

Unity Consciousness
or "Oneness" happens when the Self, the subject and unbounded underlying essence of all things, awakens to itself as being the objects and phenomena of experience on the surface of life. It is a transition from being the unbounded field in which everything thing is happening , to being everything everywhere in the range of perception and experience. "Consciousness is everything everywhere, and I am that Consciousness". The unbounded subject has remembered itself to also be all objects of perception. They are One. The unboundedness of the Self has entered into the mind, body, and environment. All objects in the surroundings, while remaining the same from the perspective of the senses, are experienced as my Self. The world is no longer an object in Consciousness. It is Consciousness itself. It is my Self. It is the oneness of experiencer, process of experiencing and objects of experience.

All of the apparent boundaries in the world are found to be my own Consciousness in appearance. From this perspective, the world is experienced to be even more real, because it is constructed out of the material of Consciousness itself, out of my own unbounded Self. The environment is now seen as pure unmodified Consciousness in the guise of the objective modifications of body, world and universe. It is not that the world and universe are seen to be an illusion. The illusion is that the world and universe is an objcetive physical reality. It has always been Consciousness itself, my own Self, pure subjectivity. There is no longer any distinction between inner or outer. The outer is the inner, the inner is the outer. Everything everywhere is my Self. "I" am all that there is.

Refined Perception Within Unity Consciousness
or "Unity in God Consciousness" is a further refinement of perception from the perspective of being everything. Consciousness awakens, with further clarity, to the underlying mechanics of creation and experience. It awakens to the subtle mechanics of its own innate intelligence that is responsible for creating the appearance of all life everywhere. It is the same shift in perception mentioned above, to experiencing the refined cosmic dimension of the feelings, intellect, mind, body, personality, senses, and all objects of experience; but it is experienced from an entirely different perspective now, one of wholeness, of being all that is. It is experiencing the flow of finer flavours and layers of intelligence within the wholeness of Self. It is Consciousness awakening to its internal dynamics as the perpetual flow of itself experiencing itself. It is the experience of the ultimate reality of the depth of the Self, the totality of Consciousness, and it is all Divine.

Beyond Consciousness
or "Brahman Consciousness" is a perspective prior to Consciousness, prior to Intelligence and prior to existence itself. It is neither Self nor non-Self, neither Existence nor non-Existence, neither Being nor non-Being, neither Consciousness nor non-Consciousness. It is the clearest experience of Reality. Words like universe, multi-verse, Absolute, Totality, Self, God, Being, Presence, Pure Consciousness cannot touch it. It is beyond description. It is pure Nothingness. From this perspective; the body/mind, the world and the universe are not just an illusion, they have never even come into existence. The ultimate reality of something made from nothing, is nothing, not something. The word "nothing" does not do justice to the supreme peace, perfect equanimity, unlimited freedom and total knowledge that It is. It is truly indescribable. It is exclusively self-evident to itself alone.

Refined Perception Beyond Consciousness
or "Refined Brahman Consciousness" is a completely different perspective of the same refinement of perception that is perpetually happening in Consciousness. But, because it is prior to Consciousness itself, there is no perceiver, no perceiving and no perceptio in the same sense. It is perpetually swelling in all the same divine flavours and qualities of wholeness and love as experienced previously, only in a finer more exquisite delicacy and fullness, prior to differentiation or distinction. It is the subtle intentention within nothingness to know itself.  It is Pure Divine Power. From this perspective, the effect--Consciousness itself, and the creative intelligence inherent in Consciousness which is responsible for the appearance of creation, is also uncaused; and as such, so too is all creation. It is beyond all understanding.

Supreme Reality

Another shift to an even deeper perspective occurs in this state when that Nothingness recognizes that divine power as its own pure Supreme Divinity that has been cloaked in the appearance of creation. That supreme divinity is the ultimate cause of all causes. It creates and appears as the sense of Being, Consciousness or Self; all divine creative intelligence, and all creation. It is pure divine radience. Refinement of perception of the universal body/mind continues in this state.

Many of us here that have Awakened and not have considerable experience in the above. Some of us are far along in the above levels and know them well and without delusion. But talk of them on many levels is of no worth to the seeker and more often than not fills them with a sense that by careful reading they actually know something.

My daily experiences are outlandish but I’ve become sick of words like awesome, incredible, immense, limitless, vastness, unbounded, etc etc etc - But I have no other words for this constant expansion and absurd energies.

The first time I Awoke it knocked unconscious 3 other people in the room who only moments before were conversing with one another.

The energies we absolutely beyond any slight previous comprehension and made a massive kundalini experience seem like peanuts by comparison and yet it was sustained in utter beauty and stillness.

-

It does nothing for a seeker to hear most of this stuff prior to Awakening.

The basics of practice and the pointers to Awakening are the core of the teachings - they ARE the advanced stuff - (the secrets).

The seekers have it backwards - they want to get past the basics and piece together in concept what is waiting for them. Nothing is waiting for “them” but the death of “them ness”

Hi Spotless!

the post was written by Lorne and Lucia Hoff from Canada.

they are not very famous but they have a good record of people waking up in their retreats (as far as i know should be over 2 dozens now). They do vids and retreats that do not focus much on the mind but mostly are a talk from "SELF to SELF".

https://www.lucialorn.net/

there are others who speak about this further unfolding now. www.davidya.ca (he has also written a book about the stages of consciousness and also has 2 batgap interviews).

Even Adyashanti talks about the "beyond/prior to consciounsess" stage now as does Kristin Kirk and Jac o Keefe. (i think the first who did this in the more modern time was nisargadatta maharaj, who spoke about that towards the end of his life)

To me that is an important step...knowing that no matter how final pure awareness feels...there is acutally "something" beyond that awarness.

best

Edited January 19, 2019 by MIchael80

Spotless · January 19, 2019

2 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi Spotless!

the post was written by Lorne and Lucia Hoff from Canada.

they are not very famous but they have a good record of people waking up in their retreats (as far as i know should be over 2 dozens now). They do vids and retreats that do not focus much on the mind but mostly are a talk from "SELF to SELF".

https://www.lucialorn.net/

there are others who speak about this further unfolding now. www.davidya.ca (he has also written a book about the stages of consciousness and also has 2 batgap interviews).

Even Adyashanti talks about the "beyond/prior to consciounsess" stage now as does Kristin Kirk and Jac o Keefe. (i think the first who did this in the more modern time was nisargadatta maharaj, who spoke about that towards the end of his life)

To me that is an important step...knowing that no matter how final pure awareness feels...there is acutally "something" beyond that awarness.

best

Agreed

A hot topic and an important one is the clear understanding that unfolding does not cease in Awakening.

The emerging refocus has been Awaken and expand in Presence/Self.

I don’t quite agree with:

”there is acutally "something" beyond that awarness.”

It is in Self - Abiding Awakened Presence that further unfolding occurs.

Also a note: Unity Consciousness can and often does preceed Awakening and can appear to be Awakening when it is far less. It is also possible to incrementally achieve it whereas it is quite rare in Awakening. Certainly some incremental happenings are at work in both but rarely does Awakening not at some point feel like it was a dramatic shift vs Unity is fairly frequently not a radical shift in one moment to the next.

I am familiar with the interviews you mentioned.

Many of the new workshops out there work toward Awakening directly and speak to continued work afterward in coming to abide in the often disorienting aftermath and then also go on to offer support in further settling and guidance in what may be in store.

Without Awakening It is possible to consider one’s achievements to be considerably higher than believed.

This is abundantly clear in those taken in by siddhis. While having achieved much - much is barred from them.

It is also possible to have considerable achievement without Awakening. It is a tremendous help to have previous practice and an excellent basic foundation prior to Awakening.

The refocus on Awakening is a real byproduct of so many now Awakening. It has changed teachings around the globe in many ways.

High level schools that have been imbedded in ancient traditions are often unequiped for a student who goes off to a retreat and comes back awoken - because many groups do not have Awakened teachers but rather those “steeped in the teachings” which may or may not be helpful if no one is actually awake.

Many very fine lineage teachers are not Awake and teach from good sense and innate and careful translation - but they often have little to nothing to offer a newly Awakened student - in fact they can be completely off in their directions and disquieting to the abidance.

The emergence of these interviews and a collective of Awakened teachers of various traditions that can be looked up and contacted is basically a new and incredible phenomenon!

When I was young the thought of even meeting such a person was a pretty incredible distant hope.

You can now look one up and call them or arrange a meeting in person or via Skype/ Zoom etc.

This idea can make some people’s stomachs turn - but it is true - many are true Awakened teachers and they are accessible until they are not so accessible.

The fact also remains - many seekers are not really seekers - they are terrified of Awakening -?loss of self/personhood. It is common to want Awakening through personhood - throwing only “the trash” out. Personhood/identification never considers its best positions trash and so the grasp is held in epoxy.

MIchael80 · January 19, 2019

27 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Agreed

A hot topic and an important one is the clear understanding that unfolding does not cease in Awakening.

The emerging refocus has been Awaken and expand in Presence/Self.

I don’t quite agree with:

”there is acutally "something" beyond that awarness.”

It is in Self - Abiding Awakened Presence that further unfolding occurs.

Also a note: Unity Consciousness can and often does preceed Awakening and can appear to be Awakening when it is far less. It is also possible to incrementally achieve it whereas it is quite rare in Awakening. Certainly some incremental happenings are at work in both but rarely does Awakening not at some point feel like it was a dramatic shift vs Unity is fairly frequently not a radical shift in one moment to the next.

I am familiar with the interviews you mentioned.

Many of the new workshops out there work toward Awakening directly and speak to continued work afterward in coming to abide in the often disorienting aftermath and then also go on to offer support in further settling and guidance in what may be in store.

Without Awakening It is possible to consider one’s achievements to be considerably higher than believed.

This is abundantly clear in those taken in by siddhis. While having achieved much - much is barred from them.

It is also possible to have considerable achievement without Awakening. It is a tremendous help to have previous practice and an excellent basic foundation prior to Awakening.

The refocus on Awakening is a real byproduct of so many now Awakening. It has changed teachings around the globe in many ways.

High level schools that have been imbedded in ancient traditions are often unequiped for a student who goes off to a retreat and comes back awoken - because many groups do not have Awakened teachers but rather those “steeped in the teachings” which may or may not be helpful if no one is actually awake.

Many very fine lineage teachers are not Awake and teach from good sense and innate and careful translation - but they often have little to nothing to offer a newly Awakened student - in fact they can be completely off in their directions and disquieting to the abidance.

The emergence of these interviews and a collective of Awakened teachers of various traditions that can be looked up and contacted is basically a new and incredible phenomenon!

When I was young the thought of even meeting such a person was a pretty incredible distant hope.

You can now look one up and call them or arrange a meeting in person or via Skype/ Zoom etc.

This idea can make some people’s stomachs turn - but it is true - many are true Awakened teachers and they are accessible until they are not so accessible.

The fact also remains - many seekers are not really seekers - they are terrified of Awakening -?loss of self/personhood. It is common to want Awakening through personhood - throwing only “the trash” out. Personhood/identification never considers its best positions trash and so the grasp is held in epoxy.

Hi!

mmmhhhh we have to be careful with words here......and i do not want a discussion.

that the physical and energetic bodies go through further unfoldment there is no doubt about that.....

however what i quoted does speak about the further unfolding of consciousness/awareness itself....quote: 'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness. It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness.

you call that Self awake presence.....to me that sounds like that.....however there is unfolding beyond this awake presence...it actually feels like loosing it or falling out of it......to some that is deeply shocking.....but as it stabalizes a new perspective comes online and it is seen that even pure awareness is still a veil over true reality. David joked about a guy who thought he was finished for the 3 times now :-)

Ahh you have seen Davids batgap interviews! great! he is not the greatest speaker but the only one who (as far as i know) speaks from what is called pure divinity which is sometimes called "source of the source" because from there it is seen that it is the source of the Self aware presence.

To me there are 2 types of unity...one before the awakening to pure aware being and the other (the one that is described in the text from Lorne and Lucia) is when awake presence/being reconizes itself fully in the creation...so that happens after an initial abiding awakening.

With the loosing of personhood....i would say the identification is lost ..not the personhood. to me it seems like there is much more to these "lets call them states" than we currently know. There is just too much variance and i shy away from this is the true unfolding and this is not.

From a lineage perspective to me an authentic Tamil siddha lineage (through Pal Pandian) is the most complete system/teaching i am aware of.

best

Spotless · January 19, 2019

3 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

To me there are 2 types of unity...one before the awakening to pure aware being and the other (the one that is described in the text from Lorne and Lucia) is when awake presence/being reconizes itself fully in the creation...so that happens after an initial abiding awakening.

With the loosing of personhood....i would say the identification is lost ..not the personhood. to me it seems like there is much more to these "lets call them states" than we currently know. There is just too much variance and i shy away from this is the true unfolding and this is not.

True Unity Consciousness can be as I stated the same - before Awakening it appears as stated above - it is just that while a great deal of personhood has relaxed from the position of separateness a great deal of the position of personhood remains - one has not awoken.

As Awakening happens this Unity Consciousness then expands as positions and personhood inertia’s fall away.

It is good to shy away from “this is the true unfolding and this is not”.

The practice one has done - the accumulated refinement yields a vast spectrum in how the unfolding takes place.

The tendency for the idea to occur that one has finished the process is more a testimony to the maturity of the person.

The tendency to think unfolding has ceased may also be in that many who Awaken cease practice - as in some ways they are IN practice most or all of the time - but this can allow for considerable unfolding to slow a great deal and in many ways resemble nearly completed changing.

The Awakening can be very great and abiding quite soon if not immediately with little or no wavering - that is not to say it is not disorienting - it could be disorienting or not - but abiding in the stillness and presence in some does not waver much if at all.

It can also waft considersbly and so leveling out into full abiding feels like a solid plateau - and it is - just not finished by any stretch other than certain background elements.

dwai · January 19, 2019

I'd like to add that awakening as it is, is not an extraordinary occurrence. It is just abiding as our true nature, at the dissolution of identifications with this and that.

Personalities don't awaken. Awareness recognizes its original nature when identification with/as the personality drops. Awareness however is always awareness, just that the localized limited personality/identity seems to be in the way.

That is the strange paradox that always befuddled my mind and intellect prior to dawning of the realization in a flash -- "How can Awareness not know it's own nature if it is always present"?

The fact is, awareness is always aware, just that the focus was on this, that, and personality identification.

Edited January 19, 2019 by dwai

doc benway · January 19, 2019

On 1/18/2019 at 12:07 PM, Spotless said:

Mooji , Adyashanti, Tolle and Gangaji

are among a few Awakened teachers that speak unwaveringly to Awakening.

If you scoff do so with input of your choices of at least one living teacher who meets your criterion of Awakened.

i would bet that Dwai and Steve would both agree with me on the above - as shocking as that my be 😎

Amma is another one though I have read little of her and heard little but we had quite a time together once very briefly.

No argument from me on any of the above...

For me there is a bit of a conundrum.

On the one hand, I feel that I cannot know the depth or clarity of experience of another, that is - it is not my role to validate or invalidate their experience; yet there is a clarity and genuineness of presence when meeting someone directly, sometimes even digitally, that generally allows recognition.

Other clear and pure voices that have spoken to and guided me -

Anthony Demello, Peter Fenner, John O'Donohue, Sailor Bob Adamson (and his teacher, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, of course), Steven Harrison, Alan Watts, Jiddu Krishnamurti, many Bönpo lamas, monks, and advanced practitioners I encounter...

One thing that tickles and appeals to me is the unique flavor each brings to their experience and expression of the essence.

It's really beautiful and reflective of human qualities and frailties.

Spotless · January 28, 2019

On 1/19/2019 at 5:41 AM, MIchael80 said:

To me there are 2 types of unity...one before the awakening to pure aware being and the other (the one that is described in the text from Lorne and Lucia) is when awake presence/being reconizes itself fully in the creation...so that happens after an initial abiding awakening.

With the loosing of personhood....i would say the identification is lost ..not the personhood. to me it seems like there is much more to these "lets call them states" than we currently know. There is just too much variance and i shy away from this is the true unfolding and this is not.