Buddhist Practices vs Taoist Practices

[Wu Ming Jen]

Being from the complete reality school the three teaching are as one. The main drive of Chinese Buddhism is Taoist in origin.

 

Taoist never had a written system like Buddhism so the structure of a formal religion written and not only passed on orally was exciting. A lot of classics we have now are do to the influence of a structured system but still very much Taoist.

 

Chan Buddhism or Zen in japan is even more connected to Taoist thought. As the teachings left the origin and traveled to other countries and cultures it became embedded with local flavor. If it ended up in a all male situation the female alchemy was dropped or alchemy in general was not taught at all.

 

It is fun to play with the flower and appreciate its beauty but even better are the seeds they have all the information on becoming a flower.

[Still_Waters]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

The goal of Buddhism is to become a Buddha (or Arhat) and thus awakened in the sense that Buddha meant it.

 

The goal of Daoist neidan is immortality (which may be understood as physical or spiritual) - and unlike Buddhism there is always a sense of harmony with something beyond ourselves, rather than mind awakening.

 

You should follow whatever system you have a strong connection to - which is what you have to decide I guess

 

 

Nicely put. I see the two traditions as being very compatible at the deepest levels.

 

Although I have met many Buddhist monks and practitioners throughout the world, one of the most memorable experiences was a three-hour meeting with a Taoist master in Chengdu (China) which was conducted in complete and utter silence. It was one of the most illuminating connections I have ever experienced.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Still_Waters

[mrpasserby]

Thanks, I always enjoy studding everyone posts. From the least to the greatest of them I find cultivation and fun. I have been working on the Taoist Neidan great Way for quite some time now and while I have not got it all down, I get the part about creating a functional spirit body, which is the same in most areas as my way practices. I under stand this Neidan great Way teaching with the exception that once you have a functional spirit body, then you get started on the really difficult challenges initiations, and deeper mysteries that only seem to me to be available for the discovering within the unseen part of the world (or some masters may hold these mysteries back for the higher level students).

The reincarnation parts of Buddhism, that I have been studying all seems to fit nicely within my experiences of the framework of the unseen world. My take on the functional part of the reincarnation scenario is more like Egypt information where a person has many levels of bodies/iterations and that sometimes one ends and is supported by the reminder until it can be re-achieved.

[Gerard]

14 hours ago, wandelaar said:

 

Some people think so...

 

 

Because those people DO unlike thinking and Internet forum discussions:

 

1. Too much talk

2. Little attainments

 

Wisdom is gained by the amount of effort you put in (footwork) rather than the amount of talk and reading, which only reinforces the EGO.

 

Work hard and you'll reap the results!

[Gerard]

19 hours ago, dwai said:

 

I’d say it’s not the “‘mind” but rather pure consciousness. Mind implies a steam of thoughts/objects. 

 

???

 

Practice with effort and in solitude (it makes a huge difference), and you'll soon see what the Mind really is.

 

All these endless Internet discussions lead to nowhere. 

 

I'll do the WALK before I do the TALK.

 

Very cool saying.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Gerard

[mrpasserby]

On 1/17/2019 at 5:45 PM, Gerard said:

 

 

Because those people DO unlike thinking and Internet forum discussions:

 

1. Too much talk

2. Little attainments

 

Wisdom is gained by the amount of effort you put in (footwork) rather than the amount of talk and reading, which only reinforces the EGO.

 

Work hard and you'll reap the results!

Thanks, this is good thought. I would like to add being prepared to receive is a required action for attainment. Shaking ones fist at the gods might get their attention but without making the effort to open a void to receive a gift or a curse, in my experience: it is unlikely that great attainment is possible. I may be wrong (probably) but isn't Neidan some times called the Great Way-which jells in my mind as moving in the direction of attaining a functional spirit body.

Neidan, or internal alchemy (simplified Chinese: 內丹术; traditional Chinese: 內丹術; pinyin: nèidān shù), is an array of esoteric doctrines and physical, mental, and spiritual practices that Taoist initiates use to prolong life and create an immortal spiritual body that would survive after death (Skar and Pregadio 2000, 464 ...

Edited January 20, 2019 by mrpasserby
added defanition

[Gerard]

This is the most important principle of existence, reality, Tao, nirvana, gods, demons, ghosts, humans , heavens, hells, whatever dimension, supernatural state or being you may think of; in other words EVERYTHING:

 

Mind creates Reality.

 

It should be our daily mantra.

 

Followed by:

 

Everything is yin & yang

 

And for dessert (behavioural principle), from one of my teachers, but that was a long time ago:

 

Accustom yourself continually to make many acts of love, for they enkindle and melt the soul.

Be gentle to all and stern with yourself.

 

(Saint Teresa of Ávila)

 

The rest are simple garnishings. Toppings if you like, to make things more colorful.

 

With my thoughts I create the world! it is a constant that is always changing indeed. Reality is a projection of our inner selves.

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Gerard

[3bob]

mind can be a well tuned  or a poorly tuned instrument. (or thing)   The Self is not an instrument (or a thing) and knows it.

 

"...Only No-thing can enter into no-space"

From  T.T.C. 43  (hyphen added to Nothing)

[Still_Waters]

4 hours ago, Gerard said:

This is the most important principle of existence, reality, Tao, nirvana, gods, demons, ghosts, humans , heavens, hells, whatever dimension, supernatural state or being you may think of; in other words EVERYTHING:

 

Mind creates Reality.

 

It should be our daily mantra.

 

Followed by:

 

Everything is yin & yang

 

And for dessert (behavioural principle), from one of my teachers, but that was a long time ago:

 

Accustom yourself continually to make many acts of love, for they enkindle and melt the soul.

Be gentle to all and stern with yourself.

 

(Saint Teresa of Ávila)

 

The rest are simple garnishings. Toppings if you like, to make things more colorful.

 

With my thoughts I create the world! it is a constant that is always changing indeed. Reality is a projection of our inner selves.

 

How did you validate the statements that you have just posted ?

Edited January 18, 2019 by Still_Waters

[Zen Pig]

4 hours ago, Gerard said:

Mind creates Reality.

 

It should be our daily mantra.

Then what creates Mind? 

[mrpasserby]

9 hours ago, Gerard said:

This is the most important principle of existence, reality, Tao, nirvana, gods, demons, ghosts, humans , heavens, hells, whatever dimension, supernatural state or being you may think of; in other words EVERYTHING:

 

Mind creates Reality.

 

It should be our daily mantra.

 

Followed by:

 

Everything is yin & yang

 

And for dessert (behavioural principle), from one of my teachers, but that was a long time ago:

 

Accustom yourself continually to make many acts of love, for they enkindle and melt the soul.

Be gentle to all and stern with yourself.

 

(Saint Teresa of Ávila)

 

The rest are simple garnishings. Toppings if you like, to make things more colorful.

 

With my thoughts I create the world! it is a constant that is always changing indeed. Reality is a projection of our inner selves.

 

I really felt the clarity in what you posted, 'Mind creates Reality', is a powerful concept to under stand. Thanks 

 

[mrpasserby]

5 hours ago, 3bob said:

mind can be a well tuned  or a poorly tuned instrument. (or thing)   The Self is not an instrument (or a thing) and knows it.

 

"...Only No-thing can enter into no-space"

From  T.T.C. 43  (hyphen added to Nothing)

I really like this concept. It is in within the space that I am able to create. Thanks

[mrpasserby]

4 hours ago, Zen Pig said:

Then what creates Mind? 

I have never been able to figure that one out. 

[wandelaar]

It is quite possible that the world as a whole has a total of zero energy, so in that case all that is needed are the laws of nature. The world could just start from nothing. Evolution than does the rest. Now Tao is the ancient Chinese concept corresponding to our laws of nature. So from that perspective Tao and not mind or consciousness could be the foundation of the world. 

 

Now where does Tao come from? We don't know. And that is the nice thing about (philosophical) Taoism, it doesn't loose itself in empty speculation about things that are beyond our understanding. The over-the-top claims to absolute knowledge of the Awoken as they are exemplified by some posts here on The Dao Bums are nicely tackled by Chuang tzu's story of the dream of the butterfly. One simply cannot know for sure that one has finally waken up. Maybe the Awoken are more asleep than the non-Awoken, who knows?

 

 

[3bob]

5 hours ago, Zen Pig said:

Then what creates Mind? 

 

that which gives birth to the One

[mrpasserby]

 

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

It is quite possible that the world as a whole has a total of zero energy, so in that case all that is needed are the laws of nature. The world could just start from nothing. Evolution than does the rest. Now Tao is the ancient Chinese concept corresponding to our laws of nature. So from that perspective Tao and not mind or consciousness could be the foundation of the world. 

 

Now where does Tao come from? We don't know. And that is the nice thing about (philosophical) Taoism, it doesn't loose itself in empty speculation about things that are beyond our understanding. The over-the-top claims to absolute knowledge of the Awoken as they are exemplified by some posts here on The Dao Bums are nicely tackled by Chuang tzu's story of the dream of the butterfly. One simply cannot know for sure that one has finally waken up. Maybe the Awoken are more asleep than the non-Awoken, who knows?

 

 

I have come to admire your posts and the cultivation that they provide. 

'One simply cannot know for sure that one has finally waken up. Maybe the Awoken are more asleep than the non-Awoken, who knows?'

This is so true. The only way that I think that gives me hope that I mite be awake is that: When I go on spirit quests and I get injured in some way (happens more then you would think), a little later the injury shows up in my body, in the same area and with the same results. The pain of these injuries is the best clue that I have. There are many other signs of my activities having a real effect but the natural nature of them make there validity questionable.

Spoiler

spirit quest England

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by mrpasserby
completed a partially expressed thought

[wandelaar]

6 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

I have come to admire your posts and the cultivation that they provide. 

'One simply cannot know for sure that one has finally waken up. Maybe the Awoken are more asleep than the non-Awoken, who knows?'

This is so true. The only way that I think that gives me hope that I mite be awake is that: When I go on spirit quests and I get injured in some way (happens more then you would think), a little later the injury shows up in my body, in the same area and with the same results. The pain of these injuries is the best clue that I have. There are many other signs of my activities having a real effect but the natural nature of them make there validity questionable.

  Hide contents

 

 

 

I took a quick look at your link, but it would take me many hours to read. Could you give a simple and short description of what you understand by spirit quests.

[mrpasserby]

I moved the spirit quest to England up to the top just now

(no good short answer out of time now I will try to write a post on spirit questing later): 

Using a functional spirit body, to interact with other beings in the unseen world, to produce some sort of a positive gain or outcome, like a healing.

Edited January 18, 2019 by mrpasserby
continuing post piecemeal

[Still_Waters]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

 

that which gives birth to the One

And how do you validate what you have just written ?

[3bob]

Chap. 21

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, mrpasserby said:

I moved the spirit quest to England up to the top just now

(no good short answer out of time now I will try to write a post on spirit questing later): 

Using a functional spirit body, to interact with other beings in the unseen world, to produce some sort of a positive gain or outcome, like a healing.

 

Yes - but what has that to do with being awake or just dreaming? I personally once had a dream in which I dreamed to have waken up, but then after that I really woke up (not in the spiritual but in the normal sense). And it makes one wonder: could it happen that I would wake up again after that, and after that, etc. So whatever one's experiences (including spirit quests, observations on one's own body, enlightenment experiences, etc.) one simply cannot be absolutely sure that one is no longer dreaming. And that is why all absolute knowledge claims even by awakened people are unfounded. So the absolute claims of awakened people have to be considered as just as suspect as those of everybody else. And all claims of provisional knowledge by awakened people need to be validated just as all similar claims of everybody else.

 

Of course those awakened people who are caught up in the illusion of belonging to the select few who know will flatly refuse to back up their claims by further validation. And that is why requests such as those of Still_Waters for validation are often ignored, diverted, or "answered" by remarks about the spiritual immaturity of those who dare to question the correctness of the utterances of the awakened. 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by wandelaar

[Desmonddf]

On 17/01/2019 at 7:09 AM, Gerard said:

But ultimately the Mind is the source of everything including the Yin & Yang.

 

The Mind doesn't manifest until WAY after the manifestation of the Yin and Yang. Remember the Taiji?

Limitless, Limited, Four Phenomena, Trigrams ?

 

Unless mind can exist without "existence", as this is one of the trigrams, then it is the product of something, not the origin of all.

 

On 17/01/2019 at 10:51 AM, wandelaar said:

Reincarnation can easily be disproved. For even if it were true than the fraction of the personality of our previous incarnation that actually survives in our present existence has to be minute, or else the proof of the reality of reincarnation would have been overwhelming with so many people living today, and there would have been no doubt about it. I think it is a pity that the idea of reincarnation has become so popular lately. It's just muddled talk like so much in modern day spirituality.

 

Professor Ian Stevenson has a very interesting approach to this. Reincarnation tales are way more common than most people believe - they are just shuned asside as children being overly-imaginative.

 

However, do remind that Mind isn't the same as Brain. This is basic psychology. The Mind remembers all, but the Brain is formed during life. Our past experiences and lives are stored in the Mind. If you want to remember then, then you have to access your mind. Then the info can be "dumped" on your brain.

 

That, or you just get an error on the process of reincarnation and ends up, indeed, with fragments of your past brain being imprinted on the present one.

[Desmonddf]

On 17/01/2019 at 7:09 AM, Gerard said:

But ultimately the Mind is the source of everything including the Yin & Yang.

 

The Mind doesn't manifest until WAY after the manifestation of the Yin and Yang. Remember the Taiji?

Limitless, Limited, Four Phenomena, Trigrams ?

 

Unless mind can exist without "existence", as this is one of the trigrams, then it is the product of something, not the origin of all.

 

On 17/01/2019 at 10:51 AM, wandelaar said:

Reincarnation can easily be disproved. For even if it were true than the fraction of the personality of our previous incarnation that actually survives in our present existence has to be minute, or else the proof of the reality of reincarnation would have been overwhelming with so many people living today, and there would have been no doubt about it. I think it is a pity that the idea of reincarnation has become so popular lately. It's just muddled talk like so much in modern day spirituality.

 

Professor Ian Stevenson has a very interesting approach to this. Reincarnation tales are way more common than most people believe - they are just shuned asside as children being overly-imaginative.

 

However, do remind that Mind isn't the same as Brain. This is basic psychology. The Mind remembers all, but the Brain is formed during life. Our past experiences and lives are stored in the Mind. If you want to remember then, then you have to access your mind. Then the info can be "dumped" on your brain.

 

That, or you just get an error on the process of reincarnation and ends up, indeed, with fragments of your past brain being imprinted on the present one.

[Miroku]

[mrpasserby]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

 

Yes - but what has that to do with being awake or just dreaming? I personally once had a dream in which I dreamed to have waken up, but then after that I really woke up (not in the spiritual but in the normal sense). And it makes one wonder: could it happen that I would wake up again after that, and after that, etc. So whatever one's experiences (including spirit quests, observations on one's own body, enlightenment experiences, etc.) one simply cannot be absolutely sure that one is no longer dreaming. And that is why all absolute knowledge claims even by awakened people are unfounded. So the absolute claims of awakened people have to be considered as just as suspect as those of everybody else. And all claims of provisional knowledge by awakened people need to be validated just as all similar claims of everybody else.

 

Of course those awakened people who are caught up in the illusion of belonging to the select few who know will flatly refuse to back up their claims by further validation. And that is why requests such as those of Still_Waters for validation are often ignored, diverted, or "answered" by remarks about the spiritual immaturity of those who dare to question the correctness of the utterances of the awakened. 

 

I am 100% sure that you are wright about not being able to be sure about being awakened.

 

Spoiler

spirit quest general