The Myth of Conscious awareness in Sleep

[s1va]

Lot of people confuse Turiya or the 4th state with conscious sleeping.  I read some posts and articles where it states about retaining awareness consistently in sleep just like in the waking state.  This is simply not possible and just a myth.  It can happen for brief intervals in the dream state and this is called Lucid dreaming.  Lucid dreaming can be lot of fun and it seems to happen in a certain stage in the journey

 

This lucid dreaming state is not the state of Turiya.  The lucid dreams generally happen in the early stages  after the opening of the 4th/5th chakras (heart & throat) and before the crown opening.  It is extremely rare after the crown opening and the inner heart or the 8th chakra opening, after a person reaches the light stage.  It is possible to induce lucid dreaming in the early stages, but some of the methods that do so can be harmful.  Lucid dreaming just increases the awareness a bit, but there is not a whole lot of benefits besides that.  Some traditions promote practices such as this as part of dream yoga.

 

What is Turiya?  It seems to be the fully awakened state that transcends all the other 3 states and is present all the time, generally described as the 4th state of consciousness that is beyond dreaming, wake and deep sleep states.  Turiya and the states that lie beyond Turiya (Turiyatita) are extremely rare, as in may be one or two who have reached the state of a Buddha might experience this state. 

 

Temporarily having awareness at night during sleep for few hours or even few days is certainly possible.  After a yoga nidra practice or when in nirvikalpa samadhi, a person might retain awareness in sleep.  Once again this is not the state of Turiya or awakened sleep.  Turiya seems to be a permanent shift into a new state that completely transcends all the other 3 and there is no going back after reaching this state once.

 

The following article explains this concept and turiya in some detail.

 

Quote

The Myth of Consciousness in Sleep

The concept of retaining awareness during sleep is present in many traditions. For instance, it is part of so-called ‘dream yoga’ in Tibetan Buddhism. In Dzogchen, there is a practice in which one tries to bring the awareness of the Tibetan letter ‘A’, or the written character of this symbol, into sleep as a means of activating sleep-awareness. Many practitioners and masters of this tradition forcefully attempt to apply this practice in vain, instead of just getting a good night of sleep. They also try to bring lucidity to the deep sleep state through practices like yoga nidra, which is impossible when one has only achieved limited awareness. Conversely, it is no more challenging to retain turiya in deep sleep than to do so in the dreaming state. Once it is attained, it remains present.

Practices of bringing awareness to sleep usually have nothing to do with turiya. They are more to do with lucid dreaming, which is part of the dreaming sleep state rather than the fourth state. It is questionable that any benefit is derived from lucid dreaming, and it may well have harmful effects through interfering with our natural sleep. To benefit from a proper deep sleep, part of our brain has to be shut down in order to allow us to experience profound rest, as well as for important subconscious healing processes to take place. 

http://anaditeaching.com/samadhi-in-sleep-the-art-of-falling-asleep-consciously/

 

[voidisyinyang]

29 minutes ago, s1va said:

Lot of people confuse Turiya or the 4th state with conscious sleeping.  I read some posts and articles where it states about retaining awareness consistently in sleep just like in the waking state.  This is simply not possible and just a myth.  It can happen for brief intervals in the dream state and this is called Lucid dreaming.  Lucid dreaming can be lot of fun and it seems to happen in a certain stage in the journey

 

This lucid dreaming state is not the state of Turiya.  The lucid dreams generally happen in the early stages  after the opening of the 4th/5th chakras (heart & throat) and before the crown opening.  It is extremely rare after the crown opening and the inner heart or the 8th chakra opening, after a person reaches the light stage.  It is possible to induce lucid dreaming in the early stages, but some of the methods that do so can be harmful.  Lucid dreaming just increases the awareness a bit, but there is not a whole lot of benefits besides that.  Some traditions promote practices such as this as part of dream yoga.

 

What is Turiya?  It seems to be the fully awakened state that transcends all the other 3 states and is present all the time, generally described as the 4th state of consciousness that is beyond dreaming, wake and deep sleep states.  Turiya and the states that lie beyond Turiya (Turiyatita) are extremely rare, as in may be one or two who have reached the state of a Buddha might experience this state. 

 

Temporarily having awareness at night during sleep for few hours or even few days is certainly possible.  After a yoga nidra practice or when in nirvikalpa samadhi, a person might retain awareness in sleep.  Once again this is not the state of Turiya or awakened sleep.  Turiya seems to be a permanent shift into a new state that completely transcends all the other 3 and there is no going back after reaching this state once.

 

The following article explains this concept and turiya in some detail.

 

 

 

I appreciate this topic but I think it's a subtle logical paradox at work here.

Does that New Age Advaita article even mention full lotus padmasana? Qigong Master Yan Xin's teacher at Shaolin - Haidan - did full lotus yoga meditation all night long - so he never slept.  Qigong masters like Wang Liping or Chunyi Lin - or Robert Peng or Zhang Yuanming - they also do full lotus meditation at night. So they only sleep a few hours a night. I think a Daoist teaching is that a good night's sleep means no dreaming - by which of course is meant that celibacy is maintained.

 

So we can think of full lotus as a kind of "gateway" or vortex. For example if the mind is racing and it is difficult to fall asleep - the full lotus will empty out the mind and then it is easy to fall asleep in full lotus. In fact I got arrested for snoring in full lotus on the toilet in Folwell Hall at the University of Minnesota. But amazingly my consciousness "knew" that I was about to be "raided." By the time the female cop "busted" into the male bathroom - I was literally standing facing the mirror at the sink. Somehow I had been able to jump out of full lotus BEFORE the female cop raided the bathroom. I still don't know how that happened.

 

Now Poonjaji - he states that the FIRST breath upon waking is the same as the 4th state of the space between our thoughts. But this is where the logical paradox kicks in. It's the difference between Nirvikalpa Samadhi as Buddhist Prajna - and the lower levels of samadhi. So as Ramana Maharshi stated - he had to "admit" for the "sake of argument" that he relied on his MIND - his Sattva spiritual ego spirit - to merge into the formless awareness but the formless awareness itself was NOT the light of his mind.

 

So now consider the colleague of the most famous Buddhist master monk of Thailand - Phra Acharn Mun. I have discussed this before - in the free biography of Acharn Mun - it is described how his meditation colleague started levitating. As soon as his mind realized he was levitating then he crashed back down. So he had to TRAIN himself to maintain the Emptiness while he was levitating. So this is the same paradox that Ramana Maharshi discusses. You can also find qigong master Jim Nance explain this paradox - I did a blog post on it.

 

https://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-mind-is-mirror-in-front-of-mirror.html

 

Quote

Let this I face the Source and facing the Source is called inquiry, when the I is facing, there is the inquiry. As mirror, in front of the mirror, is reflecting. When you see the mirror? See your face, a reflection. When you keep aside the mirror, where does the reflection go? Back to the face. So this I is inquiring from its own source, which was a reflection in the mind....

 

So in other words the LIGHT of the spiritual ego is actually the REFLECTION of the mirror. Ramana Maharshi used the analogy of the movie camera light while the SCREEN of the movie theater is the Formless Awareness. But more telling - Ramana Maharshi called this "screen" or "mirror" also as the ETHER-KNOWLEDGE that powers the flame as light.

 

So this is also the difference between Shakti and Siddhis. So for example Poonjaji had this experience described in his memoir, "Nothing Ever Happens" - he had to pay his workers but to do so he had to drive in the pitch black through a winding mountainous pass - and (I don't know if there was a blizzard or whatever). But he doesn't remember the trip at all - also he had not slept in days as I remember it. So he didn't remember the drive AT ALL.

 

Another experience - during his birthday - several different students invited him to their houses. He was in ALL their houses but he doesn't remember this at all. So the "Yang Shen" is matter as light (not mass). And Poonjaji also saw Ramana Maharshi's "yang shen."

 

Quote

it would be like taking a snap-shot, looking at the snap-shot, keeping it steady while I was breathing. I could then keep my focus on something for an extended period of time. All I had to do was wait and the energy would shift on its own.

Qigong master Jim Nance

[Jonesboy]

55 minutes ago, s1va said:

Lot of people confuse Turiya or the 4th state with conscious sleeping.  I read some posts and articles where it states about retaining awareness consistently in sleep just like in the waking state.  This is simply not possible and just a myth.  It can happen for brief intervals in the dream state and this is called Lucid dreaming.  Lucid dreaming can be lot of fun and it seems to happen in a certain stage in the journey

 

This lucid dreaming state is not the state of Turiya.  The lucid dreams generally happen in the early stages  after the opening of the 4th/5th chakras (heart & throat) and before the crown opening.  It is extremely rare after the crown opening and the inner heart or the 8th chakra opening, after a person reaches the light stage.  It is possible to induce lucid dreaming in the early stages, but some of the methods that do so can be harmful.  Lucid dreaming just increases the awareness a bit, but there is not a whole lot of benefits besides that.  Some traditions promote practices such as this as part of dream yoga.

 

What is Turiya?  It seems to be the fully awakened state that transcends all the other 3 states and is present all the time, generally described as the 4th state of consciousness that is beyond dreaming, wake and deep sleep states.  Turiya and the states that lie beyond Turiya (Turiyatita) are extremely rare, as in may be one or two who have reached the state of a Buddha might experience this state. 

 

Temporarily having awareness at night during sleep for few hours or even few days is certainly possible.  After a yoga nidra practice or when in nirvikalpa samadhi, a person might retain awareness in sleep.  Once again this is not the state of Turiya or awakened sleep.  Turiya seems to be a permanent shift into a new state that completely transcends all the other 3 and there is no going back after reaching this state once.

 

The following article explains this concept and turiya in some detail.

 

 

 

It was always my understanding that Lucid dreaming as taught in the Six Yogas of Naropa was meant to teach the student that everything is of the mind, that it is all self arising.

[s1va]

15 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

I appreciate this topic but I think it's a subtle logical paradox at work here.

Does that New Age Advaita article even mention full lotus padmasana? Qigong Master Yan Xin's teacher at Shaolin - Haidan - did full lotus yoga meditation all night long - so he never slept.  Qigong masters like Wang Liping or Chunyi Lin - or Robert Peng or Zhang Yuanming - they also do full lotus meditation at night. So they only sleep a few hours a night. I think a Daoist teaching is that a good night's sleep means no dreaming - by which of course is meant that celibacy is maintained.

 

 

Thanks.  I don't know anything about that website.  I just came across the article and found some parts interesting.  Agree on the Daoist teaching of good night's sleep with no dreams.  That is certainly a great achievement.  The subconscious habit energies and the mental formations have to dissolve for a person to have dreamless sleep consistently.

 

Not sure why or how full lotus padmasana  or the rest of your post is important or relevant to the topic.  Certainly some of these practices can help.  I respect your views, but I don't see how any of these are a must have for progress.

[s1va]

27 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

It was always my understanding that Lucid dreaming as taught in the Six Yogas of Naropa was meant to teach the student that everything is of the mind, that it is all self arising.

 

I did not know that lucid dreaming was part of the teachings of the Six Yogas of Naropa.  I thought it was closing stage practices such as Maha mudra and yidam practices.  Agree that the lucid dreaming can produce an awareness like everything is of the mind and self arising.  But, I am not entirely sure how beneficial it is and whether it is worthwhile to actively cultivate it as a practice.  I was also just pointing out the mix-up that happens with the lucid dreaming as an indicator of a fully awakened state.

[Jonesboy]

I agree that people can confuse it with being awakened.

 

I forgot I had this Dzogchen dream practice book.

 

Quote

In the Dzog-chen Upadesa series (man ngag), the dream practice, Mi

lam ( rmi lam), is one of the four secondary practices for overcoming

attachment; the three others being the overcoming of the attachment to

food (bcud len, taking in the essences of the elements), attachment to

clothing (closely similar to gtum mo, the internal heat) and attachment

to the karmic traces (bag chaw. The dream practice leads the

practitioner to recognize that one is dreaming while dreaming, to be

able to use the dream state for practice and thus develop the clarity of

the state of contemplation.

While the path of Tantra considers the dream practice one of the

essential methods ( Mi lam is one of the Six Yogas of Naropa in the

Mahssiddha tradition of India), in the Dzog-chen teaching it is

considered secondary in relation to the practice of the Natural light ..

(rang bzhin 'od gsal), in which the practitioner maintains the presence

of the pri mordia1 state (rig_JW at the moment of falling asleep.

Moreover one gets by this practice all the results attained by the dream

practice.

 

 

Quote

 

The vision created by karma and by the traces of karma is the

origin of all illusions. The way to realization can only be found by,.

overcome one's limits and one's conditioning. To try overcome the

illusion by means of logic alone is not sufficient. One can, for

example, explain by means of logic that a certain object does not

exist, that what we consider reality is but a reflection. Everybody can

understand this reasoning, but to really comprehend it, one needs to

have an experience, which through practice will mature.

 

    Then understanding the real nature of the reality is extended also to

the state of dreaming. Whether it is daytime or one is asleep, one is

aware of it. Whatever appears in the vision has no more power to

condition one. One has understood that the dualism of subject and

object is not real, that there is nothing concrete in either of them.

Dream is thus utilized, first of an, in order to understand the

vision of the daytime. from that follo'w's insight into the nature of the

subject-object rapport. At that point one not only comprehends that

reality is an illusory vision, comparable to a dream, but also

understands that it's origin is the subject, and that it is the fruit of

one's karmic traces. This understanding remains during the

dream-state. In this way the vision, whether daytime or dream

vision, creates neither conditioning nor attachment.

 

 

[Zen Pig]

2 hours ago, s1va said:

I read some posts and articles where it states about retaining awareness consistently in sleep just like in the waking state.  This is simply not possible and just a myth.  It can happen for brief intervals in the dream state and this is called Lucid dreaming.  Lucid dreaming can be lot of fun and it seems to happen in a certain stage in the journey

hmmmmm. sounds like a theory.  All I can talk from is my own, non-awakened, non-enlightened state. 

First of all, from what I have seen,  sleep consciousness or awareness is not that special. 

Most folks who have a long term day to day meditation practice will start to have lucid dreams,  and sometimes experience awareness in both deep sleep,  the dream state, and many times,  it happens that one can be both aware in deep sleep, or the dream state, and at the same time, aware of being physically in bed, all at the same time.  So not sure what the article is talking about.  sounds like a belief or idea,  which is fine, but in the end we all have to have our direct experience. 

lastly,  as far as my experience goes,  I cannot "make" this deep sleep/waking awareness "happen"  it happens or doesn't and my intent has little to do with it.  Lucid dreams are a bit different, as they seem to be a kind of exercise in intent, but that is another story for another time.

[dwai]

The awareness that is witnessing a dream and the dream universe is also the awareness that is experiencing the waking universe. 

 

That same awareness is unbroken and continues even in deep sleep. There is no cessation of consciousness in deep sleep, only an absence of objects. The only difference between deep sleep and the awareness of an awakened one is that in "unawake" individual, during the deep sleep, awareness is blanketed in tamas (or as they call it nescience, or blankness of ignorance).

 

For the spiritual awakened, there is no tāmasic covering, so the awareness without objects is known to be awareness without objects in deep sleep.  While being able to be lucid in a dream state is not a sign of awakening, for the awakened, there is the recognition  that waking, dream and deep sleep are states that rise and fall (in it, to it). 

 

Also, Turiya is not really the "fourth state",  it is unbroken and unwavering awareness in which the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep rise and fall. 

[s1va]

31 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

hmmmmm. sounds like a theory.  All I can talk from is my own, non-awakened, non-enlightened state. 

First of all, from what I have seen,  sleep consciousness or awareness is not that special. 

Most folks who have a long term day to day meditation practice will start to have lucid dreams,  and sometimes experience awareness in both deep sleep,  the dream state, and many times,  it happens that one can be both aware in deep sleep, or the dream state, and at the same time, aware of being physically in bed, all at the same time.  So not sure what the article is talking about.  sounds like a belief or idea,  which is fine, but in the end we all have to have our direct experience. 

lastly,  as far as my experience goes,  I cannot "make" this deep sleep/waking awareness "happen"  it happens or doesn't and my intent has little to do with it.  Lucid dreams are a bit different, as they seem to be a kind of exercise in intent, but that is another story for another time.

 

Yes, meditation may induce lucid dreaming, but is not a necessary for factor to lucid dream.  Temporary awareness in deep sleep and dream states are also possible as I stated like the nirvikalpa samadhi states and like the lucid dreaming states.  Turiya is not a belief or idea, it is a state that goes beyond or transcends the 3 states of waking, dream and deep sleep as I mentioned earlier.  It happens when the conscious and subconscious mind are totally integrated in a fully awakened person.  It is not always experiences, but we can also speak from the glimpses of states we had and the realization that follows from such states to understand what lies ahead.

[Jonesboy]

29 minutes ago, dwai said:

The awareness that is witnessing a dream and the dream universe is also the awareness that is experiencing the waking universe. 

 

That same awareness is unbroken and continues even in deep sleep. There is no cessation of consciousness in deep sleep, only an absence of objects. The only difference between deep sleep and the awareness of an awakened one is that in "unawake" individual, during the deep sleep, awareness is blanketed in tamas (or as they call it nescience, or blankness of ignorance).

 

For the spiritual awakened, there is no tāmasic covering, so the awareness without objects is known to be awareness without objects in deep sleep.  While being able to be lucid in a dream state is not a sign of awakening, for the awakened, there is the recognition  that waking, dream and deep sleep are states that rise and fall (in it, to it). 

 

Also, Turiya is not really the "fourth state",  it is unbroken and unwavering awareness in which the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep rise and fall. 

 

 

What does awareness without objects mean to you?

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

 

What does awareness without objects mean to you?

Awareness, without objects. 

[s1va]

21 minutes ago, dwai said:

The awareness that is witnessing a dream and the dream universe is also the awareness that is experiencing the waking universe. 

 

Thanks for the response to the topic.  I want to reply and clarify some of your observations with how I feel about this.

 

Awareness is also a layer that one needs to go beyond.  It is not the be all and end all, but some get struck at the awareness or oneness state and not see what lies beyond, which is the Dao.

 

22 minutes ago, dwai said:

There is no cessation of consciousness in deep sleep, only an absence of objects. The only difference between deep sleep and the awareness of an awakened one is that in "unawake" individual, during the deep sleep, awareness is blanketed in tamas (or as they call it nescience, or blankness of ignorance).

 

 

The mind is made up of 2 layers the conscious and the subconscious layers.  The subconscious can also be equated with the chitta.  During sleep the conscious layer is absent and only the subconscious is active.  In the waking state the conscious mind is on the forefront, but the subconscious dictates our activities many times.  As each chakra opens, it is like another layer that gets integrated into the conscious mind.  The expansion continues this way into various levels, after the 7 bodily chakras, the inner heart or light,  further expansion to include the plant and animal layers, all humans,  galactic, multi-dimensional, beyond time and space, etc.  These are all veils that get removed at each state as a person progresses and finds himself as none other than 'Shiva'.

 

At the state when a person integrates the conscious and subconscious minds entirely, then they get to the state of Turiya or awakened sleep or fully awakened state.  This retaining consciousness completely in sleep is what I and the article refer to as the myth that sometimes that we are led to believe or like to believe.

 

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

For the spiritual awakened, there is no tāmasic covering, so the awareness without objects is known to be awareness without objects in deep sleep.

 

The entire universe and all it's composition is made up of all 3 (sattva, rajas and tamas).  There is not a thing or person that existed or can exist without all 3.  Tamas is as essential as the other 2.  It is not possible to sleep without the tamas.  The bodily tiredness and the shutdown that leads to sleep is all the result of tamas.  If there is no tamasic covering for the fully awakened person, then according to you, the fully awakened person never enters the state of sleep!  I would disagree.  Buddha slept every night and so did all the fully awakened masters that I know.

 

31 minutes ago, dwai said:

While being able to be lucid in a dream state is not a sign of awakening, for the awakened, there is the recognition  that waking, dream and deep sleep are states that rise and fall (in it, to it). 

 

What I am talking about is not just a recognition or some type of intellectual understanding that things rise and fall etc.  Truly all of these states are just like passing clouds, I don't see them as rising or falling.  The fully awakened state that I am talking about is permanent and ever present and not anytype of recognition by mind.  This state is beyond the mind or any of it's capabilities like recognition, understanding etc.

 

33 minutes ago, dwai said:

Also, Turiya is not really the "fourth state",  it is unbroken and unwavering awareness in which the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep rise and fall. 

 

Turiya is generally called as the 4th state even from the scriptures to indicate that it transcends all the other 3 states entirely.  If you want to call it something else, you are most welcome to do so .

[Jonesboy]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Awareness, without objects. 

 

Not really informative.. but thanks anyways.

[s1va]

11 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

Awareness, without objects. 

 

Not really informative.. but thanks anyways.

 

Awareness without objects and consciousness retained during the sleep without objects does not make much sense to me also.  These are the very mix-ups and the confusions that I was pointing out in the OP that can arise when we approach this topic.

[Zen Pig]

2 minutes ago, s1va said:

What I am talking about is not just a recognition or some type of intellectual understanding that things rise and fall etc.  Truly all of these states are just like passing clouds, I don't see them as rising or falling.  The fully awakened state that I am talking about is permanent and ever present and not anytype of recognition by mind.  This state is beyond the mind or any of it's capabilities like recognition, understanding etc.

I don't argue with folks personal experiences, because that would be pointless. ( I am assuming you are speaking from your own experience)

Kind of a rhetorical question, not only for you, but for me and everyone else who talks about spiritual unfolding. 

If a belief system is not a part of this, then why tell folks what a  "fully awakened state" is like? 

 

for one thing,  telling someone what a fully awakened state is like, is comparable to trying to tell someone what the color Orange looks like by trying to explain it by telling someone that it is a mix of red and yellow.  

While someone can understand the colors red and yellow,  they would never be able to understand the color orange by trying to think of mixing these two colors.  One has to experience orange directly, then they say, "Oh, yea,  I get it,  this is orange"..........

Also,  if this is your direct experience of "This state is beyond the mind or any of it's capabilities like recognition, understanding, etc"  could be your experience, but might not be someone else's.  For me,  and that is all i can speak from.  mind is not separate from anything else, nor is body, life, the earth,  sleeping, awakening, dreaming.  It is all this unfolding. but like I said, not enlightened so could just be full of shit. 

 

[s1va]

2 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

I don't argue with folks personal experiences, because that would be pointless. ( I am assuming you are speaking from your own experience)

Kind of a rhetorical question, not only for you, but for me and everyone else who talks about spiritual unfolding. 

If a belief system is not a part of this, then why tell folks what a  "fully awakened state" is like? 

 

for one thing,  telling someone what a fully awakened state is like, is comparable to trying to tell someone what the color Orange looks like by trying to explain it by telling someone that it is a mix of red and yellow.  

While someone can understand the colors red and yellow,  they would never be able to understand the color orange by trying to think of mixing these two colors.  One has to experience orange directly, then they say, "Oh, yea,  I get it,  this is orange"..........

Also,  if this is your direct experience of "This state is beyond the mind or any of it's capabilities like recognition, understanding, etc"  could be your experience, but might not be someone else's.  For me,  and that is all i can speak from.  mind is not separate from anything else, nor is body, life, the earth,  sleeping, awakening, dreaming.  It is all this unfolding. but like I said, not enlightened so could just be full of shit. 

 

 

 

You have stated clearly that the mind is the be-all and end-all for you.  If that is all you can speak from, then your questions are certainly valid.

 

Is the mind truly the be-all and end-all?  For many or the majority it could be, for some physical body is who they are.  Not for me.  And I can't answer for anyone else.  I know it is not the be-all end-all for everyone.  What we generally call as mind is a very limited entity just like the body.  For someone that thinks that is all there is, conversation on something beyond the mind will certainly sound like full of shit.

 

Sorry, I can't show or prove to you that there there are things beyond what is generally called as mind, when you are already convinced that that is all there is!  For those who have an open mind, a child like curiosity, or willing to empty the cup, it is possible to explain, describe or even show the states beyond the mind.  This is what many masters from different traditions have been doing for a long time.

 

"The Tao that can be told of is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The Nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth; The Namedis the mother of all things."

 

The Dao is beyond the mind, it cannot be named or described.  Is Lao Tzu full of shit?  Could be, for some!

 

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Awareness without objects and consciousness retained during the sleep without objects does not make much sense to me also.  These are the very mix-ups and the confusions that I was pointing out in the OP that can arise when we approach this topic.

 A lot of mythology and assumptions get passed off as authoritative guidelines. The OP actually starts off very well. 

However, turiya is not something one reaches or attains. It is always there and everyone already has access to it. Only the mind focuses on this and that, so it seems to be obscured. That IS the Awareness without objects, consciousness without any modifications.

 

[s1va]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

 A lot of mythology and assumptions get passed off as authoritative guidelines. The OP actually starts off very well. 

However, turiya is not something one reaches or attains. It is always there and everyone already has access to it. Only the mind focuses on this and that, so it seems to be obscured. That IS the Awareness without objects, consciousness without any modifications.

 

 

"True, but even though it shines there, it has not truly become a conscious apprehension. Without conscious apprehension, even if a thing exists, it is as if it did not exist..." - Abhinavagupta.

 

We have talked about this numerous times.  The argument 'it is always there' is of little practical value to me or anyone else.  Unless the conscious apprehension is there (in this case, the state of Turiya), it is useless or as if it did not exist in Abhinavagupta's words.

 

Edit:  Everyone does not have access to it, only those that can consciously apprehend or have the realization of the said state.

[Jonesboy]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

 A lot of mythology and assumptions get passed off as authoritative guidelines. The OP actually starts off very well. 

However, turiya is not something one reaches or attains. It is always there and everyone already has access to it. Only the mind focuses on this and that, so it seems to be obscured. That IS the Awareness without objects, consciousness without any modifications.

 

 

So, what is consciousness without any modifications? I still don't get what you mean by awareness without objects..

 

Objects could be thoughts, emotions, or trees.. Is it clarity, a non attachment or is it something more?

[dwai]

On 1/23/2019 at 2:24 PM, s1va said:

 

"True, but even though it shines there, it has not truly become a conscious apprehension. Without conscious apprehension, even if a thing exists, it is as if it did not exist..." - Abhinavagupta.

 

We have talked about this numerous times.  The argument 'it is always there' is of little practical value to me or anyone else.  Unless the conscious apprehension is there (in this case, the state of Turiya), it is useless or as if it did not exist in Abhinavagupta's words.

 But the incredible beauty of the scenario is in its simplicity ...

Again, Turiya is not a state. It is called a state by those who haven't had what one can call "awakening" yet. So from the perspective of the lay person, Turiya is a "4th state". But from the perspective of the jñāni, it is not a state but "reality". The other three states come and go in it. When one realizes one's true nature (as Turiya), then the prapanća stops becoming a source of suffering. 

 

All such things that can be observed, have a name and form are objects of awareness/consciousness. Turiya is simply that which gives the ability to know. Even the chakras, and local mind, universal mind, etc are all modifications of this Pure Awareness. So irrespective of how many galaxies one can traverse and how many deities one can merge with, it cannot be possible without what is called "Turiya". Conscious, sub-conscious etc are all modifications of this Pure Awareness.

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by dwai

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

So, what is consciousness without any modifications? I still don't get what you mean by awareness without objects..

 

Objects could be thoughts, emotions, or trees.. Is it clarity, a non attachment or is it something more?

It is awareness. The Light in which objects are known  

[s1va]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

 But the incredible beauty of the scenario is in its simplicity ...

Again, Turiya is not a state. It is called a state by those who haven't had what one can call "awakening" yet. So from the perspective of the lay person, Turiya is a "4th state". But from the perspective of the jñāni, it is not a state but "reality". The other three states come and go in it. When one realizes one's true nature (as Turiya), then the prapanća stops becoming a source of suffering. 

 

 

So, according to you, we can put Abhinavagupta and KS teachings safely into the category of the 'unawakened' and ignorant?

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

So, according to you, we can put Abhinavagupta and KS teachings safely into the category of the 'unawakened' and ignorant?

No, we can say that they wrote what they did for the ignorant and unawakened to become awakened.  

[s1va]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

Again, Turiya is not a state. It is called a state by those who haven't had what one can call "awakening" yet. So from the perspective of the lay person, Turiya is a "4th state". But from the perspective of the jñāni, it is not a state but "reality". The other three states come and go in it. When one realizes one's true nature (as Turiya), then the prapanća stops becoming a source of suffering. 

 

You seem to contradict your own previous post directly.  In your first post you said the state of Turiya is always there and accessible to everyone. Now, in the post above you seem to imply after one realizes one's true nature as Turiya, then..........  So, before such realization, one is certainly under the 3 states and not aware or accessing the 4th state.

[dwai]

*deleted*

Edited January 24, 2019 by dwai
deleted on OP request