The Myth of Conscious awareness in Sleep

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

You seem to contradict your own previous post directly.  In your first post you said the state of Turiya is always there and accessible to everyone. Now, in the post above you seem to imply after one realizes one's true nature as Turiya, then..........  So, before such realization, one is certainly under the 3 states and not aware or accessing the 4th state.

 I also wrote that the realization that one is already Turiya seems to be hidden by the focus of the mind on objects external and internal. The classic example given is that a necklace, a finger ring and an earring are all made of gold. So long as they are perceived as being apart from gold, gold can be considered a "separate" thing. However, when the realization occurs that these objects (necklace, finger ring and ear ring) are nothing apart from the Gold, it becomes clear that they always were made of Gold. Similarly, waking, dreaming and deep sleep seem like disconnected states from this purported fourth (Turiya). But upon realization it becomes clear that they are nothing apart from Turiya.

Edited January 23, 2019 by dwai

[s1va]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

 I also wrote that the realization that one is already Turiya seems to be hidden by the focus of the mind on objects external and internal. The classic example given is that a necklace, a finger ring and an earring are all made of gold. So long as they are perceived as being apart from gold, gold can be considered a "separate" thing. However, when the realization occurs that these objects (necklace, finger ring and ear ring) are nothing apart from the Gold, it becomes clear that they always were made of Gold. Similarly, waking, dreaming and deep sleep seem like disconnected states from this purported fourth (Turiya). But upon realization it becomes clear that they are nothing apart from Turiya.

 

Thanks for your comments once again.  I get your ideas on Turiya, while I don't agree with them as I have explained in the previous posts.  This topic is also not about Turiya or the aspects of Turiya, but about 'The Myth of retaining conscious awareness in sleep'.  So, I would like to get back to the topic or stay within that topic.  If you would like to discuss more on Turiya, please start a new thread and we can discuss there.

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Thanks for your comments once again.  I get your ideas on Turiya, while I don't agree with them as I have explained in the previous posts.  This topic is also not about Turiya or the aspects of Turiya, but about 'The Myth of retaining conscious awareness in sleep'.  So, I would like to get back to the topic or stay within that topic.  If you would like to discuss more on Turiya, please start a new thread and we can discuss there.

But that myth you call a myth is not a myth at all. Once one realizes one's true nature as Turiya, the myth that  "retaining conscious awareness in sleep (either dream or deep sleep states) is a myth" gets busted...

[s1va]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

But that myth you call a myth is not a myth at all. Once one realizes one's true nature as Turiya, the myth that  "retaining conscious awareness in sleep (either dream or deep sleep states) is a myth" gets busted...

 

I will take that as your opinion and I do not wish to debate your beliefs.  Not sure if you read the article link that I posted.  It explains in further detail about why the conscious sleeping is a myth, what Turiya is, what is 'awakened sleep' vs. consciousness in sleep, etc.  You may not agree after reading and hold on to your opinions, which is fine.  But, it may still be worth a read.

[dwai]

1 minute ago, s1va said:

 

I will take that as your opinion and I do not wish to debate your beliefs.  Not sure if you read the article link that I posted.  It explains in further detail about why the conscious sleeping is a myth, what Turiya is, what is 'awakened sleep' vs. consciousness in sleep, etc.  You may not agree after reading and hold on to your opinions, which is fine.  But, it may still be worth a read.

I read the article and I don't agree with it ..it is juvenile at best. 

[s1va]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

I read the article and I don't agree with it ..it is juvenile at best. 

 

Not surprised.  Best Wishes .

 

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, s1va said:

 

Not surprised.  Best Wishes .

 

To you too

 

BTW, if anyone is interested in knowing why Turiya is called the 4th (but that is just a misnomer), read here --

 

 

[Zen Pig]

2 hours ago, s1va said:

You have stated clearly that the mind is the be-all and end-all for you.  If that is all you can speak from, then your questions are certainly valid.

????????????  did you read my post?  ok,  good conversation.  thanks

[s1va]

22 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

????????????  did you read my post?  ok,  good conversation.  thanks

 

Following is from your post.  First you mention states beyond mind.  Then you say or imply mind is everything for you, not separate from anything else.  It sounds like one single continuim to me.  Then again you bring up something about not enlightened and 'full of shit’!

 

Quote

This state is beyond the mind or any of it's capabilities like recognition, understanding, etc"  could be your experience, but might not be someone else's.  For me,  and that is all i can speak from.  mind is not separate from anything else, nor is body, life, the earth,  sleeping, awakening, dreaming.  It is all this unfolding. but like I said, not enlightened so could just be full of shit.  

 

Whatever is beyond your discernment (or if you have not experienced like your orange example) could be full of shit for you in your own words.  I am not finding any fault with your words and encouraging you to do what you were doing.  Everyone can decide for themselves what makes sense and what is full of shit.  This can evolve from time to time as we expand and our clarity increases.  More things make sense.

 

The point I was trying to make is, I am not here to convince you of anything, or to answer your rhetorical questions to prove something to you.

 

Thanks to you too for the conversation and good luck 🙂.

[Jonesboy]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

It is awareness. The Light in which objects are known  

 

Thank you Dwai but I am still confused.

 

I get that we are all let's say Buddhas but it is our attachments that keep us from the realization.

 

Your Self Knowledge post seems to be about how attachments keeps us from clarity.

 

When you say awareness is the Light in which objects are known and then you bring in AV where all objects are an illusion. Are you saying there are no objects just awareness free from all such things?

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Thank you Dwai but I am still confused.

 

I get that we are all let's say Buddhas but it is our attachments that keep us from the realization.

 

Your Self Knowledge post seems to be about how attachments keeps us from clarity.

 

When you say awareness is the Light in which objects are known and then you bring in AV where all objects are an illusion. Are you saying there are no objects just awareness free from all such things?

I've been asked to desist from discussing these points here by siva. So let's take this discussion to another thread - I'll be happy to explain more.  

[doc benway]

This may be a bit of a detour but I'd like to share about yogas of dream and sleep.

In the Tibetan Bön tradition, they are part of the tantric teachings and are considered precious.

 

There are two distinct stages - lucid dreaming and the clear light of sleep.

Dreaming is practiced first. The benefits of lucid dreaming are multiple. 

As a tantric practice, it is a great opportunity to work with personal transformation.

We are aware that we are dreaming and, with a little practice, able to act intentionally in the dream and change it at will.

But we are dreaming - sights, sounds, trains of discursive thought... that is dream yoga.

Cultivating the ability to transform the dreams leads to greater flexibility and freedom in waking life.

It also helps understand illusory nature of all experience, asleep and awake.

 

Sleep yoga bypasses dream or uses dream as a springboard.

Reaching the clear light is a bit like samadhi - total clarity, openness...

No visions, no images or arisings. A feeling of pure awareness floating in boundless space.

Effortless and very stable, feels like there is an inertia of stability.

The teachings say that reaching the clear light even a few times in life helps at the moment of death to recognize the Nature of Mind and self-liberate.

 

Peace

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

9 hours ago, s1va said:

 

 

Thanks.  I don't know anything about that website.  I just came across the article and found some parts interesting.  Agree on the Daoist teaching of good night's sleep with no dreams.  That is certainly a great achievement.  The subconscious habit energies and the mental formations have to dissolve for a person to have dreamless sleep consistently.

 

Not sure why or how full lotus padmasana  or the rest of your post is important or relevant to the topic.  Certainly some of these practices can help.  I respect your views, but I don't see how any of these are a must have for progress.

 

Oh my views are not much worth respecting but regarding full lotus - I will refer to some prominent qigong masters. Taoist master Wang Liping states that ONLY the full lotus can really open up the lower back nerve channels. Qigong master chunyi lin says if you want to see if someone is a real master then just see how long they can sit in full lotus in ease without moving. Master Nan, Huai-chin, considered a great Ch'an teacher, said that the full lotus was necessary to demonstrate that the energy channels are open. So the problem is that as Westerners we are hard-wired (since Plato) to think the mind is more important than the body - and so Master Nan, huai-chin points out that even in Japan the Zen meditation became too conceptual. Master Nan, Huai-chin chastises his students for thinking too much and then states how many of you can even sit in full lotus for ONE DAY nonstop? And that one week of nonstop full lotus is at least a minimum for real samadhi. When Nirvikalpi Samadhi kicks in then full lotus becomes comfortable as the body has filled with qi energy - and the bones become pliable - even the top of the skull pulsates with qi energy, like a baby, the skull fontanelle opens up. When Poonjaji went to Europe he said the big problem with the West is that it lacks yoga training.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

7 hours ago, dwai said:

It is awareness. The Light in which objects are known  

The problem with your claim - that you repeat ad naseum - is that it directly goes against the teaching of Ramana Maharshi! I'll stick with Ramana Maharshi:

Quote

People want to see the Self as something. They desire to see it as a blazing light, etc. But how could that be? The Self is not light, not darkness, not any observed thing. The Self is ever the Witness.

Busted once again - for the umpteenth time.

Now how is this paradox solved? Ramana Maharshi admits the LIGHT is USED as the mind to merge into the SELF but the SELF is NOT the Mind.

OK Western science explains this - light is considered a type of matter as radiation in science - but a photon does not experience space nor time. So due to relativity there is a zero/infinite "rest frame" of light - this "zero/infinite" rest frame is still RELATIVE to the observer such that there is also a "superluminal" phase that is the non-local awareness. In other words - for any frequency of light - the light can be "turned around" so that it is at the "zero rest frame" but because light has no rest mass, it does still have inertial mass or spacetime mass that is relativistic (i.e. spacetime is superluminal).

 

So I can quote a professor to help clarify this paradox.

Kent A. Peacock, Professor of philosophy of physics:     

 

Quote

There is a subtle fact about relative velocities that is not always explicitly mentioned in books on relativity, and a failure to grasp this subtle fact may be a cause of some of the confusion about superluminal motion. In special relativity all velocities (except for the velocity of light itself) are relative, including zero and infinite velocity....Dainton, et. al., possibly have confused the invariant fact that any superluminal propagation has infinite velocity relative to one frame (which one depends on the spacetime trajectory of the superluminal effect) with the notion (not correct) that any superluminal propagation would be invariantly infinite for all frames....Thus, there certainly is a theory that allows for influences which are instantaneous in one frame and finite (though superluminal) in all others; it is called 'special relativity.'...instantaneous in their mutual rest frame....Whether or not the local clock readings are equal at A and B is therefore independent of whether or not A and B are at the same global time coordinate in some inertial frame or other....Einstein's way of defining time-coordinate simultaneity neither assumes nor requires that light signals be either the fastest or the only way of communicating between distant events; it's only about what can be accomplished with light signals....an obvious candidate is phase: it is far more natural to think of wave functions as reducing over hypersurfaces of constant phase, and this automatically gives a covariant picture; ...While relativity is far more amenable to superluminal influences than has been generally supposed, ultimately it is classical relativity that must adapt itself to the quantum.... 2013, emphasis in original, "Would superluminal influences violate the principle of relativity"

 

So this is what Ramana Maharshi called the Ether-Knowledge - this is the Yuan Qi in Daoism.

 

Due to the "Westernization" of reality - people have this New Age perspective that "light" is awareness. Light is the spiritual ego - as consciousness. It is confusing as the terms "awareness" and "consciousness" can be exchanged and so easily confused.

 

 

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

The problem with your claim - that you repeat ad naseum - is that it directly goes against the teaching of

I'm pretty sure that "the light of Awareness" does not imply we are pressning the On button on our flash light. 

[s1va]

14 hours ago, steve said:

This may be a bit of a detour but I'd like to share about yogas of dream and sleep.

In the Tibetan Bön tradition, they are part of the tantric teachings and are considered precious.

 

There are two distinct stages - lucid dreaming and the clear light of sleep.

Dreaming is practiced first. The benefits of lucid dreaming are multiple. 

As a tantric practice, it is a great opportunity to work with personal transformation.

We are aware that we are dreaming and, with a little practice, able to act intentionally in the dream and change it at will.

But we are dreaming - sights, sounds, trains of discursive thought... that is dream yoga.

Cultivating the ability to transform the dreams leads to greater flexibility and freedom in waking life.

It also helps understand illusory nature of all experience, asleep and awake.

 

Sleep yoga bypasses dream or uses dream as a springboard.

Reaching the clear light is a bit like samadhi - total clarity, openness...

No visions, no images or arisings. A feeling of pure awareness floating in boundless space.

Effortless and very stable, feels like there is an inertia of stability.

The teachings say that reaching the clear light even a few times in life helps at the moment of death to recognize the Nature of Mind and self-liberate.

 

Peace

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing and it is certainly not a detour.  I thought the benefits of lucid dreaming are limited.  It is good to get a different perspective that explains there are multiple benefits and as part of dream yoga it can lead to clear light of sleep.

 

I have practiced yoga nidra which leads to a state like the clear light state that you mentioned.  But, I wonder if there is a relationship between the lucid dreaming and this clear light state.  I understand both of them are part of the dream yoga.  But, do you think one is a precursor to the other state, or helps to reach the other state? 

 

When I mentioned the nirvikalpa samadhi, I was thinking of the clear light state also, since both of them seem very similar to me.  In my experience this also stops after a certain stage, not the samadhi itself, but the absence of functioning of the consciousness mind vanishes after a certain state.

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, s1va said:

I have practiced yoga nidra which leads to a state like the clear light state that you mentioned.  But, I wonder if there is a relationship between the lucid dreaming and this clear light state.  I understand both of them are part of the dream yoga.  But, do you think one is a precursor to the other state, or helps to reach the other state? 

In the teachings I've received, dream and sleep yoga are considered as separate practices and generally practiced one at a time.

Dream yoga is generally practiced first as it is considered far more accessible that sleep yoga.

Once some skill and stability in lucid dreaming is achieved, the practitioner will move on to sleep yoga which shares some of the same practices but the core practice is quite different.

 

Certainly these states are related as conscious awareness is present in both cases and is aware that one is asleep.

The way it has been explained is that lucid dreaming is very much like being mindfully aware while awake.

Discursive thoughts come and go, there is sensory stimulation, and engagement with all of that while maintaining presence and awareness and choice of intention.

Contrast this to the waking state when we are not mindful and aware, that is much like non-lucid dreaming.

The clear light is more like deep meditative absorption, which is why I used the term samadhi.

Awareness is there and yet unconstrained, unfocused, unattached to any sensory stimulus, and undisturbed by discursive thought.

 

The ultimate goal in sleep yoga is to enter into deep sleep while maintaining the presence of conscious awareness without passing through a stage of dreaming.

I've not had success with that yet, although I think I've been close a few times.

It is also possible to use lucid dreaming as an intermediate stage and simply dissolve the dream state until the clear light is reached. I have had success with that method so, yes, my experience is that lucid dreaming can help reach the clear light state.

 

 

2 hours ago, s1va said:

When I mentioned the nirvikalpa samadhi, I was thinking of the clear light state also, since both of them seem very similar to me.  In my experience this also stops after a certain stage, not the samadhi itself, but the absence of functioning of the consciousness mind vanishes after a certain state.

 

[s1va]

22 minutes ago, steve said:

Certainly these states are related as conscious awareness is present in both cases and is aware that one is asleep.

 

I would agree mostly with your post with some exceptions.  In the quote above, you mentioned the concious awareness is present in both states.  It is present in the lucid dreaming state.  But what happens in the clear light state, I would not call that as concious awareness, as in the same concious awareness in the washing state.  Certain awareness is present in that state, but the concious mind with awareness that functions in the waking state is different.  If indeed such concious awareness is there then the perception of the external world besides the clear light would be present in this state.  Which does not happen in the clear light state in my experience.  It is possible to retain the full concious awareness in the clear light state and it does happen eventually.  When it happens, it is similar to the sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

I also believe that the clear light state or the nirvikalpa samadhi stops after a certain stage of expansion.  Which some of us here call as the light level that happens after the 7 bodily chakras open and the 8th chakra or the inner heart opens and the 7 bodily chakras collapse into one unified field.  It is also called the jiva-shiva phase in Kashmir Shaivism. After this state, the clear light state or nirvikalpa samadhi without the full concious awareness does not happen.  The similar samadhi states happen.  But it is not just the awareness of the clear light.  Sort of like a person has expanded to have that experience as part of their concious mind itself due to the expansion and integration of certain layers of subconscious mind.  Still sleep is different.

 

I have also not reached the stage where the awakened sleep is constant and transcending all other 3 states like in Turiya.  However, you termed it as concious awareness in sleep, I see it differently.  It is not concious awareness similar to the waking state in sleep for me.  From what I gathered and read about Buddhas and other masters, no matter the expansion, there will still be deeper layers to uncover indicating infinite expansion.  Even a Buddha enters sleep without the concious awareness that is present in waking state, this does not mean that there is no awareness of sleep.  Their sleep is in an awakened state that transcends all 3 states, but it is not the concious awareness for the waking state. If it is, then there won't be any difference between the sleep state and waking state.

[voidisyinyang]

17 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

I'm pretty sure that "the light of Awareness" does not imply we are pressning the On button on our flash light. 

 

Really? You mean a Head Lamp? https://archive.org/stream/TaoistYogaAlchemyAndImmortalityLuKuanYCharlesLuk/Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality Lu K’uan Yü (Charles Luk)_djvu.txt

Quote

This is the lower tan t’ien cavity (under the navel) full of the alchemical agent which reveals to the eyes the beauty of positive vital breath. Wherever the practiser walks, stays, sits or reclines, he will see a white light in front of him, and, as time passes, this white light changes into a golden one.

 

[johndoe2012]

On 1/23/2019 at 8:45 PM, s1va said:

 

Awareness is also a layer that one needs to go beyond.  It is not the be all and end all, but some get struck at the awareness or oneness state and not see what lies beyond, which is the Dao.

 

So who/what is aware of the Dao then?

 

It must be awareness thus you end up in the same place again - being awareness.

 

I guess you mean conscious awareness where duality exists.

Awareness where 'me' is gone and there is no distinction between 'my' fingers and the laptop I am typing at, is what I am referring to (rigpa).

[doc benway]

On 1/24/2019 at 1:47 PM, s1va said:

 

I would agree mostly with your post with some exceptions.  In the quote above, you mentioned the concious awareness is present in both states.  It is present in the lucid dreaming state.  But what happens in the clear light state, I would not call that as concious awareness, as in the same concious awareness in the washing state.  Certain awareness is present in that state, but the concious mind with awareness that functions in the waking state is different.  If indeed such concious awareness is there then the perception of the external world besides the clear light would be present in this state.  Which does not happen in the clear light state in my experience.  It is possible to retain the full concious awareness in the clear light state and it does happen eventually.  When it happens, it is similar to the sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

I also believe that the clear light state or the nirvikalpa samadhi stops after a certain stage of expansion.  Which some of us here call as the light level that happens after the 7 bodily chakras open and the 8th chakra or the inner heart opens and the 7 bodily chakras collapse into one unified field.  It is also called the jiva-shiva phase in Kashmir Shaivism. After this state, the clear light state or nirvikalpa samadhi without the full concious awareness does not happen.  The similar samadhi states happen.  But it is not just the awareness of the clear light.  Sort of like a person has expanded to have that experience as part of their concious mind itself due to the expansion and integration of certain layers of subconscious mind.  Still sleep is different.

 

I have also not reached the stage where the awakened sleep is constant and transcending all other 3 states like in Turiya.  However, you termed it as concious awareness in sleep, I see it differently.  It is not concious awareness similar to the waking state in sleep for me.  From what I gathered and read about Buddhas and other masters, no matter the expansion, there will still be deeper layers to uncover indicating infinite expansion.  Even a Buddha enters sleep without the concious awareness that is present in waking state, this does not mean that there is no awareness of sleep.  Their sleep is in an awakened state that transcends all 3 states, but it is not the concious awareness for the waking state. If it is, then there won't be any difference between the sleep state and waking state.

I can't speak to the various stages and levels of consciousness and so on. 

I'm not that knowledgable or well-read.

I certainly can't comment on how Buddhas sleep or what they might experience.

I've never met one and I don't believe everything I read about them.

 

I did want to share my personal and very limited experience in the hopes that it would add to the discussion.

Truth be told, I was driven to post as an objection to the title of this thread...

 

An experience of crystal clear awareness floating in unbounded spaciousness.

Unencumbered by images and undisturbed by discursive thought.

Perfectly aware of being asleep on the floor of the Gompa during a practice session. 

Very similar to an experience of unbounded spaciousness and awareness in deep meditation, though without the external stimuli.

 

You seem to be equating conscious awareness with the awareness that is connected with objects, and you seem to be referring to external objects, but that would also count for internal objects (thoughts, feelings, inner narration, dreams). 

I'm happy to drop the label "conscious" if that bothers you. Some don't like the word awareness. Words carry baggage!

Nevertheless, my experience of awareness in deep sleep was essentially the same as awareness in dreaming and waking.

It felt every bit as "conscious."

The only difference was the absence of any objects of awareness - sounds, lights, and rays; as the Tibetans would say.

 

You mention twice that if conscious awareness was present in sleep, it would be no different than the waking state.

The primary difference is that in sleep the sensory organs and musculoskeletal control are disengaged for the most part. 

And this is not a trivial difference.

In my (very limited) experience, that absence of content and stimulation were the only real differences between awareness in deep sleep and awareness in waking life, particularly in stable meditation where the experience is very similar.

 

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, steve said:

I can't speak to the various stages and levels of consciousness and so on. 

I'm not that knowledgable or well-read.

I certainly can't comment on how Buddhas sleep or what they might experience.

I've never met one and I don't believe everything I read about them.

 

I did want to share my personal and very limited experience in the hopes that it would add to the discussion.

Truth be told, I was driven to post as an objection to the title of this thread...

 

An experience of crystal clear awareness floating in unbounded spaciousness.

Unencumbered by images and undisturbed by discursive thought.

Perfectly aware of being asleep on the floor of the Gompa during a practice session. 

Very similar to an experience of unbounded spaciousness and awareness in deep meditation, though without the external stimuli.

Beautiful! My experience is similar too. Unaffected awareness continuing through the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep. 

 

2 minutes ago, steve said:

You mention twice that if conscious awareness was present in sleep, it would be no different than the waking state.

The primary difference is that in sleep the sensory organs and musculoskeletal control are disengaged for the most part. 

And this is not a trivial difference.

In my (very limited) experience, that absence of content and stimulation were the only real differences between awareness in deep sleep and awareness in waking life, particularly in stable meditation where the experience is very similar.

 

I would venture to say that this awareness is the same even when not meditating on anything. It is a sheet anchor that grounds us to our being, irrespective of what the mind is doing -- which ranges from doing nothing, to doing mundane things in the transactional world, to interacting and merging with deities and disembodied beings in the astral and causal realms. 

[s1va]

2 hours ago, steve said:

I can't speak to the various stages and levels of consciousness and so on. 

I'm not that knowledgable or well-read.

I certainly can't comment on how Buddhas sleep or what they might experience.

I've never met one and I don't believe everything I read about them.

 

I did want to share my personal and very limited experience in the hopes that it would add to the discussion.

Truth be told, I was driven to post as an objection to the title of this thread...

 

An experience of crystal clear awareness floating in unbounded spaciousness.

Unencumbered by images and undisturbed by discursive thought.

Perfectly aware of being asleep on the floor of the Gompa during a practice session. 

Very similar to an experience of unbounded spaciousness and awareness in deep meditation, though without the external stimuli.

 

You seem to be equating conscious awareness with the awareness that is connected with objects, and you seem to be referring to external objects, but that would also count for internal objects (thoughts, feelings, inner narration, dreams). 

I'm happy to drop the label "conscious" if that bothers you. Some don't like the word awareness. Words carry baggage!

Nevertheless, my experience of awareness in deep sleep was essentially the same as awareness in dreaming and waking.

It felt every bit as "conscious."

The only difference was the absence of any objects of awareness - sounds, lights, and rays; as the Tibetans would say.

 

You mention twice that if conscious awareness was present in sleep, it would be no different than the waking state.

The primary difference is that in sleep the sensory organs and musculoskeletal control are disengaged for the most part. 

And this is not a trivial difference.

In my (very limited) experience, that absence of content and stimulation were the only real differences between awareness in deep sleep and awareness in waking life, particularly in stable meditation where the experience is very similar.

 

 

I think we may have different conceptual background and possibly different understanding of certain basic building blocks, or may be we are using the same terms with different meaning from our experiences.  Such differences are entirely fine with me and we don't have to necessarily agree on this.  I know you are speaking from your experience and respect that completely.  Sleep is not just loss of objects of awareness to me.  I explained the conscious and subconscious layers in a post earlier, it is the subconscious layer that is active during the sleep and not the conscious layer.  The ratio of the conscious layer vs. the subconscious changes as we progress, when a chakra opens, we are expanding to include another layer of subconscious layer into the conscious layer.  The mind is made up layer after layers.  We start with the lowest level of conscious layer and everything else veiled in the subconscious layers of the mind.  As we evolve and grow we further integrate  layers of subconscious mind into the conscious layer of our mind.  Thus the conscious layer grows.  Sleep is always the subconscious part of the mind and the conscious layer is absent.  I don't even know what the absence of objects mean.

 

The levels of consciousness or the nirvikalpa samadhi stopping after a certain state that I mentioned are from my own personal experience (verified by some others who have reached or experienced the same states) besides the comments about Buddha.  I consider myself to be fortunate to have come in contact with some who in my opinion have reached the state of Buddha.  Doesn't matter what others believe or think about it.  Based on reading certain sutras given by Buddha and also communicating with persons who I consider to have reached that state, I am able to come to certain conclusions and express them confidently.  I can understand that if this does not sound right or makes anyone uncomfortable. 

 

You are more than welcome to post in opposition to the topic of this post as long as you do it in a constructive way without any malice as you have done so far.  But, this topic is what I believe based on my experiences and know to be true, having conscious awareness in sleep just like waking state is a myth to me beyond any doubt.   You are expressing your objections positively in a non-confrontational way.  This is something I not only appreciate but welcome.  IMO, such constructive objection against a topic and open discussion can be a lesson to many here in forum, to learn how to object to a topic without malice or resorting to ridicule of opposing ideas to illustrate or assert one's expertise on a topic. 

 

If you would like to further expand from your experience as to why you object to the title of this thread, please do not hesitate and just feel free to proceed,  even take apart the title if you feel so .  I am not attached to this topic and I welcome sincere and constructive opposition to the topic with open heart.

 

Thanks once again for sharing!

[Everything]

I have retained awareness fully in my fully awakened body, from wake induced lucid dreaming, hallucinations, prior to dreaming, to dream induced lucid dreaming. Even the dream induced lucid dreaming into the end of the rem cycle to a no body awarenes, back into pre wake induced lucid dreaming hallucinations and the whole experience of wake initiated lucid dreaming. SO freaking many times. It's so freaking booooring...

Who cares? rlly!? Dreams are stupid and meaningless and fake, unless your life is awesome, your dreams will also always be awesome.

People are awake and thinking about dreams, can only be helpful if you dream about something scary, and then wake up and say yeah, I need to change that, focus my mind on a different outcome that I do prefer. Because often it just means you're focused in your waking daily life in a very negative way. And those nightmares are just reminding you of that. And an awesome dream is just telling you, you're focused positively all is well, keep on rocking.

 

But to make such a big deal about dreaming as if it is a prediction of the future is stupid. Because there is no such thing as a prediction of a future. If there is really a prediction of the future, doesn't the fact that you know this future, also not give you the ability to change it?! OFcourse it does. So you make your own future. So stop making the future you don't like and make the future you do like.

 

You create your dreams. And you create your life. You just have to be willing to focus on what feels good. That's it.

 

You're gonna say I feel bad, that must mean something bad is going to happen. No bullsht! It is not a prediction, it is just an indication of your own energy. And you can change your own energy, redirect and shift your focus and energy towards something that is more beneficial and good, and thus will also be indicated by a good and better feeling energy in motion, emotion.

 

 

And don't give me that shakra makra pakra nonsense. It's just dream language. And this is reality. There are others here aswell. You are not alone. They don't hate you, they just don't care that much. You will always be alone unless you do something that you enjoy that enjoyment can support you in keep doing and thus you'll then in no time be doing the things you enjoy with allot of other people who also enjoy doing the thing that you also enjoy doing. And then you're never lonely anymore. Why? Cause every single person in your lifeis just as important and meaningful to you and valued and loved as you loved your self when you decided to something that you enjoy? Why? Simply because you enjoy it. That's it.

 

But if you think you have to first wait and see how the entire stars of the universe align and whatnot, and you need to find every single chakra of every chakra, and the chakras of chakras within the chakras within chakras of chakras within chakras? Goodie luki yo! I aint gonna mess with my own organs and glands. I trust they're all perfectly good! I'm healthy, are you healthy too? I hope so!

[s1va]

11 hours ago, Everything said:

I have retained awareness fully in my fully awakened body, from wake induced lucid dreaming, hallucinations, prior to dreaming, to dream induced lucid dreaming. Even the dream induced lucid dreaming into the end of the rem cycle to a no body awarenes, back into pre wake induced lucid dreaming hallucinations and the whole experience of wake initiated lucid dreaming. SO freaking many times. It's so freaking booooring...

Who cares? rlly!? Dreams are stupid and meaningless and fake, unless your life is awesome, your dreams will also always be awesome.

People are awake and thinking about dreams, can only be helpful if you dream about something scary, and then wake up and say yeah, I need to change that, focus my mind on a different outcome that I do prefer. Because often it just means you're focused in your waking daily life in a very negative way. And those nightmares are just reminding you of that. And an awesome dream is just telling you, you're focused positively all is well, keep on rocking.

 

But to make such a big deal about dreaming as if it is a prediction of the future is stupid. Because there is no such thing as a prediction of a future. If there is really a prediction of the future, doesn't the fact that you know this future, also not give you the ability to change it?! OFcourse it does. So you make your own future. So stop making the future you don't like and make the future you do like.

 

You create your dreams. And you create your life. You just have to be willing to focus on what feels good. That's it.

 

You're gonna say I feel bad, that must mean something bad is going to happen. No bullsht! It is not a prediction, it is just an indication of your own energy. And you can change your own energy, redirect and shift your focus and energy towards something that is more beneficial and good, and thus will also be indicated by a good and better feeling energy in motion, emotion.

 

 

And don't give me that shakra makra pakra nonsense. It's just dream language. And this is reality. There are others here aswell. You are not alone. They don't hate you, they just don't care that much. You will always be alone unless you do something that you enjoy that enjoyment can support you in keep doing and thus you'll then in no time be doing the things you enjoy with allot of other people who also enjoy doing the thing that you also enjoy doing. And then you're never lonely anymore. Why? Cause every single person in your lifeis just as important and meaningful to you and valued and loved as you loved your self when you decided to something that you enjoy? Why? Simply because you enjoy it. That's it.

 

But if you think you have to first wait and see how the entire stars of the universe align and whatnot, and you need to find every single chakra of every chakra, and the chakras of chakras within the chakras within chakras of chakras within chakras? Goodie luki yo! I aint gonna mess with my own organs and glands. I trust they're all perfectly good! I'm healthy, are you healthy too? I hope so!

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.  Is any of this related to this topic of concious awareness or the absence of it in sleep by any means?