The Myth of Conscious awareness in Sleep

[s1va]

3 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

As rants go, this one is spot-on.

 

Being right is to spirituality as Snickers is to food.  I too hope for the deeper nourishment of genuine camaraderie and mutual support.  The posts I find most beneficial are the personal stories (KumbaMela) and shared resources (DeMillo).  Thanks to all who have generously shared from the heart.  My life is richer for your sharing.

 

Personal stories can be of value if they are relevant and shared with discretion.  But, I think you missed my entire point, which is fine. You are entitled to your opinions as others.

 

The past itself is an entanglement, in a way just a story of the mind that binds us to certain experiences.  To think my past stories adds value to everyone is presumptuous.  Whether my past stories add value to me itself is debatable.  What is valuable experience to one may be just theory or irrelevant to another.  What interests you perhaps does not interest everyone.  A member that creates a topic can have some basic expectations like, discussion stays on topic, does not get derailed or turn into ugly debates and challenges.  I understand you may want to listen to personal stories more.  Everyone's wishes to read what they like to hear cannot be enforced in one single thread.  Perhaps you can start a topic where people can share such personal stories of theirs.

 

I excercise discretion on where I narrate my personal story to see if it adds value, relevant and most importantly whether it is welcome in the place where I am sharing.  This is why in my personal views, our PPD's may be the best place to tell eloborate personal stories, narrate  experiences, or share personal teachings as much as we like!  

[s1va]

53 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I ordered it, thanks again for the recommendation.

Some of my favorite teachers are as entertaining as they are informing.

The most profound lessons I've learned have been non-verbal.

 

One lesson I learned from my current teacher is that our spiritual growth is more closely related to our connections - with other people, our teachers and students, community, nature, and ourselves; than it is related to any information or knowledge we may possess or gain. He'll often say on retreat, 'if you came here for information you'll be disappointed' and remind us that we can find any information we could ever want with a computer or smartphone in a matter of minutes. We gather on retreat to deepen our connection as a community, to deepen our experience through meditation, through sharing, and distancing from the day to day distractions... not to hoard techniques, concepts, and theories. I do acknowledge that there is a legitimate path one can tread to try and liberate the mind through the mind itself but that path is not the one for me.

 

That is one disappointment for me here. I see far too much focus on information, on being correct, on 'winning' a debate at any cost; on figuring things out, on quoting dead gurus, rather than honoring living teachers and traditions. I would love to see this place become more of a community, oriented towards mutual support and genuine camaraderie, rather than a warehouse of information, opinion, and ego. I can recall many instances of trying to offer some helpful information from an alternative perspective and meeting with nothing but denigration and criticism because my perspective didn't align with the "OP" or with a particular participant's paradigm or opinion. For a "spiritual" forum, we can be very closed-minded and opinionated. It's something I'd like to see change but I ain't gonna hold my breath!

 

Sorry to rant but this is a good thread for it...

:

 

 

I enjoy reading many of your posts and wish you would share more without any reservations.  Your sharings reflect the inner clarity and shows that you are talking from your experience.  More importantly you show fundamental respect towards others whether you agree with them or not.

 

I appreciate all of this and your sharing is certainly not a rant to me.  I would agree with much of this post also.  But, feel disagreements and debates will never abate.  There are those who will always assert their ways are the only correct ways or methods for everyone.  I also feel disagreements at a certain level is needed, otherwise there won't be any productive discussion.  

 

Aiming to win an argument is alright with me personally as long as it is not an obsession and done in a respectful way.  Otherwise there will be very few interesting spiritual discussions, if any.  If I make a claim that I don't care to win while all along engaging in some debates with others to make my point, it may amount to hypocrisy. So, I personally do not make such claims, but see this happening in forums here plus questioning or challenging other people's authority inorder for them to discuss or share their thoughts.

 

There is one more thing I would like to mention here. There are some that paint the picture that they are above all this, neutral and only here to enjoy amicable spiritual discussions.  But, then they go on to make subtle remarks that clearly shows which side they are on and their willingness to overlook one sides indescretions or ad hominem attacks since it suits with their ideas. If we are opposed to such ugliness in principle, then we must act so accordingly and consistently.  Such people that indirectly take sides are not truly neutral in my view and are acting as a fuel in ways to the very things they say they dislike.  This is not about you since you made it clear from the start which side you are when it concerns to this topic.  It is better to take sides in a debate if we are going to patriciate or be a truly neutral observer without saying anything or making any remarks that portray otherwise.

 

It is very easy to conclude whatever we write and quote from books and traditions are direct experience and valid and finger point to others and say your talk is intellectual, just theory, etc.  I would take just one exception with your post above with respect to quoting dead teachers. This is once again my opinion. Quoting, dead teachers living teachers, it is all the same to me.  Why do we quote others? I will answer that for myself.  I generally quote others because their words describe what I want to convey from my experience, understanding or realizations with better or more powerful words or statements than how I would describe it in my words.  It is also convenient and handy may times.  As per following dead teacher's it depends.  For instance those teachers that are light, we can still connect to them and learn directly from them.  Such as Buddha or Jesus.

[doc benway]

No question we can and will maintain different opinions, it is all about how we disagree.

I advocate for treating each other with respect, opening our minds to the possibility that another's experience or opinion is valid and try to make room for that in our view, rather than dismiss or denigrate it. 

I also quote others, I see nothing wrong with it as a support to our opinions and positions.

When we prioritize such quotes to a dialogue with members based on their positions and experiences it becomes problematic, at least for me.

[Still_Waters]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

I ordered it, thanks again for the recommendation.

Some of my favorite teachers are as entertaining as they are informing.

The most profound lessons I've learned have been non-verbal.

 

One lesson I learned from my current teacher is that our spiritual growth is more closely related to our connections - with other people, our teachers and students, community, nature, and ourselves; than it is related to any information or knowledge we may possess or gain. He'll often say on retreat, 'if you came here for information you'll be disappointed' and remind us that we can find any information we could ever want with a computer or smartphone in a matter of minutes. We gather on retreat to deepen our connection as a community, to deepen our experience through meditation, through sharing, and distancing from the day to day distractions... not to hoard techniques, concepts, and theories. I do acknowledge that there is a legitimate path one can tread to try and liberate the mind through the mind itself but that path is not the one for me.

 

That is one disappointment for me here. I see far too much focus on information, on being correct, on 'winning' a debate at any cost; on figuring things out, on quoting dead gurus, rather than honoring living teachers and traditions. I would love to see this place become more of a community, oriented towards mutual support and genuine camaraderie, rather than a warehouse of information, opinion, and ego. I can recall many instances of trying to offer some helpful information from an alternative perspective and meeting with nothing but denigration and criticism because my perspective didn't align with the "OP" or with a particular participant's paradigm or opinion. For a "spiritual" forum, we can be very closed-minded and opinionated. It's something I'd like to see change but I ain't gonna hold my breath!

 

Sorry to rant but this is a good thread for it...

:

 

I love what you wrote and this indeed has become a very good thread for "rants". Although stream-of-consciousness discussions can sometimes seem a bit chaotic, a lot of good revelations often come from what might initially be perceived as tangential.

 

I agree with you completely that a major part of spiritual growth is indeed related to our interactions and "our connections - with other people, our teachers and students, community, nature, and ourselves". In watching the thoughts and images that preoccupy us in dealing with others, one learns a lot about one's self and thus gains insights into how to maintain one's equilibrium even in the most trying of times.

 

I actually like listening to alternative perspectives as you suggested --- both traditional and unorthodox --- as everyone seems to have a piece in the puzzle of life. I have discovered that one apparently irrelevant stream-of-consciousness comment can often prove to be a connecting link to resolving something for myself in particular and/or spiritual aspirants in general. However, as I have often said, I weary of theory without the theorist being able to translate the theory into a practice, to discuss results of that practice, and to indicate in some way how others can validate the theory. A common question in Zen "dharma battles" relates to how can one verify any theory or position that is presented. I may seem opinionated at times, but I do rely in many cases on direct verifiable experiences and stand firm on them. At other times, I state clearly and unequivocally when I am still in the process of investigating a theory which I have not yet confirmed via direct experience and welcome comments. Relating direct experiences is my way of demonstrating how I came to certain conclusions while others here have openly attributed that to wanting to talk about myself. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

What resonated most with me, however, was your statement: "I would love to see this place become more of a community, oriented towards mutual support and genuine camaraderie, rather than a warehouse of information, opinion, and ego.  I can recall many instances of trying to offer some helpful information from an alternative perspective and meeting with nothing but denigration and criticism because my perspective didn't align with the "OP" or with a particular participant's paradigm or opinion." Reflecting on this, I thought about my own spiritual mentor and I don't think that this objective can be accomplished here on this site. My spiritual mentor would not discuss spiritual topics over the phone or in writing or even during face-to-face meals. She would only discuss spiritual matters from the dais when she had the undivided attention of all involved and could observe here-and-now reactions on every level. That is not possible here in an online forum. As I re-read that portion of your post, I started to wonder what I am doing here where direct experiences are denigrated while quoting dead gurus with no validation of theories has become the norm. I then shifted my focus and realized that, since I live in NYC, there are many high-quality SMALL groups that I attend here which, as you suggested, do constitute "more of a community oriented towards mutual support and genuine camaraderie rather than a warehouse of information, opinion, and ego." In those groups, we do exactly what I do here. We discuss practices, methodologies for validating theories under consideration, and any results of the practices. If some think that I am confrontational here, it is nothing compared to the challenging questions posed to all of us in our face-to-face meetings. Some very intimate details are raised which would likewise not be ideal in a forum like this where they would be exposed to denigrating ridicule. Having re-read your post, especially this part, I became resolved to go once again to four such meetings tomorrow (Thursday), Friday, Sunday and Tuesday as that is probably the best place for me based on what is either directly stated or implied above.

 

Your stream-of-consciousness "rant" above on a seemingly tangential subject has triggered a realization in me which translated into action regarding where best to spend my time in the future. My sense is that some of the posters here will be delighted if not outwardly thrilled if I minimize my presence here in the future as I am now inclined to do. It's not about winning debates but in discovering Truth and, when someone demonstrates that my spiritual paradigm or practice has potential problems, then I change as I have done in the past. However, grandiose statements with no support other than the words of dead gurus is generally not what works best with me, as should be obvious to all now. Hence, I've decided to start minimizing time spent here if not eliminating it altogether but I may still wander in from time to time as there are posters here for whom I have the utmost respect and highly value their contributions with you being one of them.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Still_Waters

[s1va]

18 minutes ago, steve said:

No question we can and will maintain different opinions, it is all about how we disagree.

I advocate for treating each other with respect, opening our minds to the possibility that another's experience or opinion is valid and try to make room for that in our view, rather than dismiss or denigrate it. 

I also quote others, I see nothing wrong with it as a support to our opinions and positions.

When we prioritize such quotes to a dialogue with members based on their positions and experiences it becomes problematic, at least for me.

 

While I agree with Steve's views, let's review some of the key oppositions to this topic so far. 

• You are not qualified to discuss this topic.  You have no direct experience to make these claims. 
• You are not a sufficient authority in my view to discuss this topic.  Posturing such as how dare someone make such a claim or topic in the forums here
• All you say and quote are intellectual and just theory.  I will state my elaborate stories and my own quotes from the books I like to prove this.
• Your theories are juvenile
• This is crackpot theory and my theory is the clay-pot theory.  Here is the link to my post to detour readers to their topic.  When I send a friendly request to remove this, just flatly deny.
• Your topic and what you state is entirely Nonsense.  I will keep on opposing and rattling it page after page whether you like it or not.

 

And the people who make such claims want us to believe they are the authority and have the 'direct experience' of higher realizations.  Unfortunately their actions speak louder than their words.  And to support such actions of ad hominem and ridiculing of others, directly or indirectly is the same as committing that activity in my views. 

 

Finally, when the topic is derailed and devastated, we end up asking questions or making assertions it would be great, if everyone discusses with noble intentions and not with the aim to winning, etc.  Yes, it is unhealthy.  But, we need to honestly investigate where the problem originates.  I dislike many topics in the forum here and think some of them make no sense at all.  I stay away from those topics, not go there and challenge the OP or prove my authority with my stories or claims.

[liminal_luke]

4 hours ago, s1va said:

 

There is one more thing I would like to mention here. There are some that paint the picture that they are above all this, neutral and only here to enjoy amicable spiritual discussions.  But, then they go on to make subtle remarks that clearly shows which side they are on and their willingness to overlook one sides indescretions or ad hominem attacks since it suits with their ideas. 

 

[voidisyinyang]

10 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

From the Pratyabhijnahrdayam The Secret of Self- Recognition

 

 in turyatita it is dissolved

 

in sakti.

yes this is the Yuan Qi.

Quote

In this Udana sakti is active.

https://archive.org/stream/PratyabhijnahridayamTheSecretOfSelfRecognition.Kshemaraja.Tr.J.SinghDelhi1980600dpilossy/Pratyabhijnahridayam - the secret of self-recognition. Kshemaraja. Tr. J.Singh (Delhi%2C1980) (600dpi%2Clossy)_djvu.txt

For the context of that quote:

Quote

turya (lit., fourth) is the same as turiya . See note 84. It is the state in which there is pure consciousness of atman r and the sense of difference disappears. In this Udana sakti is active.

 

So the whole body fills with qi energy - when Nirvikalpa Samadhi is achieved then the Shakti manifests as spiritual powers. Also a person can sit in full lotus padmasana in ease for as long as they want. So that's a good way to know the Shakti state is for real and not just someone's imagination.

[neti neti]

Probably one of the best I've come across  conveying the depths of the "stateless state".

 

From, "Turiya - The God State" by SantataGamana. It should be noted that the author acknowledges the concept of "wakeful sleep", but doesn't just leave the reader with that bare vague claim. He actually describes Why the concept is accurate as a pointer, which creates an understanding that integrates the experience for us who've had glimpses, or days, or weeks of literally, "living the dream." 

 

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The difference (and it is a big one) between deep dreamless sleep and Turiya is that you retain full consciousness in Turiya, while you are unconscious during deep sleep. Therefore, deep sleep with awareness = Turiya.

 

But, you may ask, if there’s nothing during deep sleep, how can there be Turiya during wakefulness? If enlightenment meant the inability to perceive the world and have the dual experience of dynamic Consciousness, then enlightenment would be limited. From the point of view of the mind, of this world, you can say that wakefulness has its limitations because it’s a dualistic state prone to suffering and dissatisfaction. But you could also say that deep sleep has its limitations due to its lack of awareness, its inability to perceive the world and its apparent nothingness/darkness. How then can non-duality perceive duality? That’s where Turiya comes into play.

 

Turiya is how duality can be perceived without separation—as a wholeness. You perceive the world as you, as Self, without separation, as if deep sleep merged with wakefulness, originating “Wakeful Sleep.”

 

It is being aware and present in absence—the acknowledgment of the light of Awareness in the total darkness of nothingness, and the recognition of Existence in the apparent realm of non-being. It is as if the state of deep sleep were infused with awareness, presence, and light.

[neti neti]

And if I may, he offers "degrees" of Turiya which may aid in realizing the scope of that persistent mind-blowing perception that... Self Alone Is, and may serve as signposts to gauge one's level of "conscious awareness" throughout all so-called relative states.

 

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There is only one Turiya, but there are different levels of it regarding its dual manifestation. For it to grow in depth, your mind, energy and body must already be entirely stabilized and emerged into the God State, which will permeate your life ever more strongly and subsequently turn your vehicle of expression into the perfect embodiment of God. This is not something that is “done,” rather it is allowed to naturally happen by being in a state of receptivity and “melting-bliss.” The light of Awareness first infuses the mind, and only afterward does it impregnate the energetic and physical bodies. The process of Turiya integration progressively goes from the subtler to the grosser levels. The whole spectrum of our being must be totally liberated from its usual density and feelings of being a localized entity (including the very act of perception). This progressive integration and assimilation happens in the objective manifest world, and is thus subject to time.

 

The following are the degrees of integration of Turiya. There is no longer a separate feeling of “I” in any of them, hence in none of these degrees are enlightened beings under the assumption of being doers or of having an ego-self. Keep in mind that although all these degrees are of enlightened beings, there are no degrees of enlightenment. There are degrees of the dualistic manifestation of the Truth in our present vehicle in direct correlation to the body-energy-mind’s integration of the light of Awareness, and its ability to act as a mirror and reflect Self-Realization through its expression.

 

These degrees of Turiya integration are usually erroneously interpreted as “degrees of Enlightenment,” giving rise to the usual comparisons that seekers make between enlightened Masters. Level 4 is not truly an “integration” of Turiya, in and of itself, but more like a total absorption of all relativeness into the unmanifested Absolute. I only call it “level” out of simplicity.

 

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Degrees of integration of Turiya: ( Level 1 )

 

Perceiving duality with a permanent current of joy that grows and expands. The body and the mind are fully active. There are still samskaras and vasanas. Patterns or reactions arising from old habits can still occur, but they don’t bring any suffering. There is an intuitive inner knowingness of one’s true nature, which is stronger than any previous conviction of being a “man, age 40, born in Barcelona” or a “woman, mother, and lawyer from Massachusetts” for example. This knowingness never fades from now on, and is not based on belief nor thought. There is also the direct insight beyond thought of the unity of everythingness.

 

The expression “Everything is the Self” is truly understood and known with maximum clarity and certainty. It’s not a concept or a supposition; it’s pure knowingness. It’s as if you were in a dream, fully aware and cognizant of the fact that everything there was only your mind, manifesting in all those forms. The majestic joy of Turiya profoundly affects your relative existence, and it begins to remodel the whole essence of your dual expression. Maya is truly realized to be the Self. There is an undifferentiated continuum of perception where despite being able to discern objects, no boundaries are created in relation to their essence. One is like a goldsmith who, rather than seeing all of the different forms of jewelry, sees only gold. 

 

There is a growing unification of the individual life-force with the cosmic life-force; this is the downpouring of the Cosmic Kundalini into our manifested vehicle of expression—Grace infuses our atoms with immaculate divine happiness. The mind has truly been transformed into a pure transcendental mind.

 

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( Level 2 ) All of the above, with the addition that duality is perceived with an even stronger joy, love and peace. It is indeed much stronger than level 1 in this regard.

 

This is akin to increasing the size of a mirror (body-energy-mind) that is reflecting the sun (pure consciousness). The size of the sun doesn’t change, but a bigger mirror can reflect more of the sunlight.

 

The Cosmic Kundalini has integrated to a greater degree into our manifested vehicle of expression. Our atoms are made of Grace itself. The life-force and energetic body have truly been transformed into a pure emanation of being. The body and the mind may be fully active, but there’s a decreasing will to perform activities or to do anything. The enlightened being enjoys and increasingly prefers to sit in silence rather than act. There are still subtle “positive” samskaras and vasanas, subtle habits that the body and mind have accumulated, but these pose no obstruction to the manifested expression of the Truth.

 

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( Level 3 ) Perceiving duality as if it were a dream-like world, with a permanent and non-localized universal bliss, love and peace. Physicality in the waking state seems to be made of “dream stuff.” Duality is interconnected as a unified field of experience. 

 

Either there is no localized center of attention, in which case the experience goes on impersonally in a non-local way, as if there were no subject at all (“no-I”); or, the center of attention in the body expands its outreach, and seems to be connected to manifestation from that particular point of view (all-encompassing “I”). Although it seems like two different kinds of examples, they are the same. Having no “I” implies that the perceiving mind is unified with the whole; and an all-encompassing “I” implies that there’s no “I” as we know it (a separate entity).

 

Just like when you perceive and sense the presence of your hand, and you know that it’s connected to you, Oneness may be experienced from the point of view of the body-mind. E.g., you look at a tree, and you sense and see the tree as yourself—as if you were sensing and looking at your own hand. You know and feel that it’s all connected and One (this “center-here yet circumference-everywhere” point of view may also happen in level 2 of Turiya integration, but in that instance, it is not a permanent point of view from the body-mind).

 

Here’s another way of attempting to explain this: Whenever you finally acquire a new item that you’ve desired for so long, you feel sort of a connection to it. Let’s say you get a new expensive car that you’ve wanted for so long: you feel great whenever you are in it or think about it, you are overzealous with it, etc. If we go a bit deeper, we can see that this connection is even stronger with a pet for example. And with a son, daughter, or a loved life partner, it goes even further. The love you feel for that significant other is a profound connection beyond anything physical. If your love for them is powerful enough, you feel connected to them, as if you were only one. Such experiences of love are glimpses of the love of Oneness.

 

Love is truly the experience of unity. Your “I” which used to feel like a separate entity, is now a “Transcendental-I” which has an expanded outreach encircling everything else, not just the body. This “Transcendental-I” has the whole of creation as its body. The undifferentiated continuum of perception has dissolved to the maximum possible extent, such that despite still being able to discern objects, no boundaries are created with them in relation to what would usually be called “I” (in this case, in relation to the “Transcendental-I”). The body, which is the grossest expression of a human being, has finally been fully infused and saturated with the light of Awareness, turning perception itself into transparent and reflective wholeness. “Everything is the Self” is not in one’s “state” anymore because one even loses the distinction between “everything” and “Self.” There is only the Self.

 

It’s more than a profound knowingness, it is as if the five senses collapse without collapsing, encompassing everything but maintaining the lucidity to perform activity and discern between things. Body and mind are partially active, but it’s difficult to perform activities or do anything because the bliss has become too strong to allow engagement with normal daily living. Most of the time, the enlightened being prefers to sit in silence rather than act, although they can speak, interact and move if they wish. There are still subtle sattvic (pure) conditionings which would be detrimental to erode because they fit this particular body-mind and its potential destiny of expressing the Truth in this world.

 

Quote

( Level 4 ) Talking about this doesn’t do justice to its reality. It’s like attempting to convey silence through words. Nonetheless, an attempt to convey this level will be made:

 

Non-perceiving duality, fully emerged and absorbed by rapture and peace. Either the body lies like a corpse and there is an “inability” to speak, interact, move or think; or if any action is performed, it is akin to a toddler drinking milk while asleep, and without being aware of anything (no body-awareness). To an external observer though, that toddler will appear to be acting (drinking).

 

There is non-local and non-temporal awareness. No samskaras, no vasanas. It’s as if you were dead, but you are alive. No “Transcendental-I,” no anything. All levels of both the subtle vestiges of individuality and of extreme transcendence have been totally annihilated.

 

There can be said to be a last vasana which consists of an extremely subtle level of pseudo-individuality. This remains in potentiality, so that it is possible to interact and perceive the world through the “Transcendental-I” if this human being fluctuates between level 4 and level 3. With that being said, if a being remains for too long in full-blown Turiya, then this extremely subtle vasana may revert from potentiality back to nothingness. Such a happening is extremely rare though. 

 

There is no “Everything is the Self” or “There is only Self,” because everything in relativity collapses. There is no everything or even the “Self.” Those were mere concepts created by our limited minds to help our understanding and integration of the Truth into our temporary human existence.

 

Understand that this degree of Turiya is not similar to Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi (temporary formless absorption where the ego returns afterward). In Turiya, a Self-Realized being is at all times absorbed in the Self. It doesn’t matter whether they are sleeping, moving, sitting, lying like a corpse, talking, laughing, crying, etc. That being IS the Absolute.

 

However, what is being mentioned here is related to the state of the body-mind in this manifested world. The Absolute, which is an enlightened being’s true Self, is not subject to states; on the contrary, the relative counterpart consisting of a mental, energetic and physical vehicle is. Hence this is merely a way of demonstrating the understanding of the dualistic expression of such a being.

 

Well, hope that helps. I suggest purchasing a copy if you are so led, lest I end up sharing whole chapters.

Edited February 8, 2019 by neti neti

[neti neti]

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The strongest embodiment of Turiya while being active and engaging in the world is level 3, although some sages and saints’ body-mind have interchanged between levels 3 and 4 throughout their lives. The highest manifestation of life as a human being is thus not level 4, and it is easy to realize why—in such “state,” the pure mind remains entirely absorbed in its source, unwaveringly, and no spark of relative consciousness “comes out.” Only in levels 1, 2 and 3 does consciousness still seem to appear as a unified manifestation to the extroverted outlook of the mind.

 

Although the example of a movie theater is not perfect, it may help to clarify the understanding:

 

STATE                 MOVIE PLAYING                    LIGHTS

Waking                           Yes                                    Off

 

Dream                             Yes                                    Off

 

Deep Sleep                      No                                    Off

 

Turiya                               Yes                                   On

 

Turiyatita(level 4)             ---                                    On,

                                                                              max brightness

 

 

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Whenever the lights are off, it’s a clear sign of ignorance. Whenever the lights are on, it’s a clear sign of realization. The deeper Turiya infuses your life, the stronger the light. With mild light, you can still slightly see the movie, but you know it’s a play of consciousness, an illusion, something temporary; with the lights at maximum brightness, you won’t see any movie—you only see light. The dichotomy of there being a movie or no movie has been transcended.

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by neti neti

[dwai]

Love that table on Turiya  

[dawei]

I don't know what Turiya is and probably can't even pronounce it... and what I share as experience may be some other Zulu sounding word instead... so ignore me as needed.

 

I've had this weird experience where I realize I am dreaming and watch it a while and then just tell myself to wake up and stop the dream... and I do... but after waking up, the dream continues (ie: I continue to see it play out)... and I go back to sleep and it just keeps going.

 

I've had the opposite too:  Dreaming while awake; a steady stream of visions play like a movie.

 

Back to Turiya..  

[Kar3n]

4 hours ago, dawei said:

Back to Turiya..  

But, Turiya was never the intended focus of this topic...

[mrpasserby]

'the-myth-of-conscious-awareness-in-sleep:

practice to a completion neidan. 

[neti neti]

10 hours ago, dwai said:

Love that table on Turiya  

 

I know you love those tables. Sucked ya right in! 

[neti neti]

6 hours ago, Kar3n said:

But, Turiya was never the intended focus of this topic...

 

Interesting take on things. Perhaps I was mistaken, but that word is like all over the first post. 

[Seth Ananda]

To quote Swami Lakshmanjoo:

 

These five states, which comprise the individual subjective body, are called jāgrat - wakefulness, svapna - dreaming, suṣupti - deep sleep, turya - the fourth state, and turyātītā - beyond the fourth [fifth].

1. In jāgrat, wakefulness, the individual subjective body is traveling in the world of objectivity (prameya), which comprises the world of elements, names, forms, words, and sounds. Here, it loses consciousness of its subjectivity and becomes one with the objective world.

2. In svapna, the dreaming state, the individual subjective body travels in the impressions (saṁskāras) of the objective world. Here, it also loses the awareness of its subjective consciousness. It takes hold of these impressions and becomes one with the world of impressions.

3. In suṣupti, deep dreamless sleep, it has entered a state of complete void (śūnya). If it was previously traveling in the world of objectivity in the waking state, then upon entering deep sleep, it loses consciousness of this objectivity and also of its subjectivity. If it was previously traveling in the world of impressions in the dreaming state, then upon entering deep sleep, it loses consciousness of these impressions. In deep sleep, it is no longer aware of anything. The impressions of the objective world remain but these are as if dead. When it again returns from the state of deep sleep, these impressions, which were seemingly dead, again come to life.

4. And when, by the grace of a master, this subjective body enters into subjective consciousness with full awareness, and maintaining unbroken awareness becomes fully illumined in its own Self, this is called the fourth state, turya.

5. And when this individual subjective body takes a firm hold of turya and does not lose consciousness for even a moment, then it is established in that state called turyātītā, above the fourth. It is completely established in its Self. Its awareness of Self is maintained constantly in wakefulness, dreaming, and deep sleep. It never loses its consciousness. Even at the time of death, because it lives in the body of consciousness, it remains completely Self aware

 

 

And:

 

There are only two names actually attributed to this state of turyātīta, one given by worldly people and one by jñānīs. Worldly people, because they know nothing about the state, call it turyātīta, which means “that state which is beyond the fourth.” Jñānīs, on the other hand, have a name for it. They call it mahāpracaya, which means “the unlimited and unexplainable supreme totality.” Yogins do not actually attribute any name to this state because they have no knowledge of it. It is completely outside of their experience. Yogins have though, through the use of their imagination and guesswork, imagined one name which might be appropriate for this state: satatoditam which means “that state which has no pause, no break.” It is a break-less and unitary state. In samādhi it is there. When samādhi is absent, it is there. In the worldly state it is there. In the dreaming state, it is there. And in the state of deep sleep, it is there. In each and every state of the individual subjective body, it is there.

[Everything]

Ok so life is a dream. It is a good dream for me tho. Endless fun things I can do here.

This dream is so good, I can even dream a dream within the dream, of even better dreams I can be dreaming.

And select the best of all those dreams, and then go live an even better dream.

Edited February 9, 2019 by Everything

[doc benway]

I recently came across this brief teaching from the Dalai Lama.

I thought it might be of some value to share here.

 

"In order to train in the path that would allow us to transform death, the intermediate state, and rebirth, we have to practice on three occasions: during the waking state, during the sleeping state, and during the death process. This entails integrating the self with spiritual training. Now we have three sets of three:

Death, intermediate state, and rebirth
Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya
Sleeping, dreaming, and waking

In order to achieve the ultimate states of Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya, one must become acquainted with the three stages of death, intermediate state, and rebirth. In order to become acquainted with these three, one must gain acquaintance with the states of dreamless sleep, dreaming, and waking.

“To gain the proper experience during sleep and the waking state, I think it is crucial to become familiar, by means of imagination, with the eightfold process of dying, beginning with the waking conscious state and culminating in the clear light of death. This entails a dissolution process, a withdrawal. At each stage of the actual dying process there are internal signs, and to familiarize yourself with these, you imagine them during meditation in your daytime practice. Then in your imagination, abiding at the clear light level of consciousness, you visualize your subtle body departing from your gross body, and you imagine going to different places; then finally you return and the subtle body becomes reabsorbed in your normal form. Once you are experienced at visualizing this during daytime practice, then when you fall asleep an analogous eightfold process occurs naturally and quickly. That’s the best method for enabling you to recognize the dreamless sleep state as the dreamless sleep state. But without deeper meditative experience of this in the daytime, it’s very difficult to realize this dissolution as you fall asleep.

 

“In the Highest Yoga Tantra practice there are two stages for any sadhana or visualization practice: the stage of generation and the stage of completion. In the stage of generation, the more basic of these two, this whole eightfold process of dissolution is experienced only by the power of imagination; you just visualize it. But in the second stage of practice, the stage of completion, by means of prana yoga, including the vase meditation, you bring the vital energies into the central channel, and you actually bring about such a dissolution, not just with imagination, but in terms of reality. You bring about such a dissolution, and at a certain level of this practice the clear light will manifest.

 

“If you’ve arrived at that point in your experience and practice, then it’s very easy for you to recognize the clear light of sleep when that naturally occurs. And if you have arrived at the point where you can recognize dreamless sleep as dreamless sleep, then it’s very easy for you to recognize the dream as the dream.

 

“This discussion concerns the means of ascertaining sleep as sleep and dream as dream by the power of vital energy. That’s one avenue leading to that result. Now, going back to daytime practice, if one has not reached that level of insight or experience through the vital energy practice, then during the daytime you accomplish this by the power of intent, rather than power of vital energy. Intent means you have to strive very diligently, with a lot of determination. In such practice, recognizing dreamless sleep is harder than recognizing the dream as dream.

 

“Different factors are involved in the ability to recognize the dream as dream. One is diet. Specifically, your diet should be compatible with your own metabolism. For example, in Tibetan medicine, one speaks of the three elements: wind, bile, and phlegm. One or more of these elements are predominant in some people. You should have a diet that helps to maintain balance among these various humors within the body. Moreover, if your sleep is too deep, your dreams will not be very clear. In order to bring about clearer dreams and lighter sleep, you should eat somewhat less. In addition, as you’re falling asleep, you direct your awareness up to the forehead. On the other hand, if your sleep is too light, this will also act as an obstacle for gaining success in this practice. In order to deepen your sleep, you should take heavier, oilier food; and as you’re falling asleep, you should direct your attention down to the vital energy center at the level of navel or the genitals. If your dreams are not clear, as you’re falling asleep you should direct your awareness to the throat center. In this practice, just as in using the device sent by LaBerge (see p. 106), when you begin dreaming it’s helpful to have someone say quietly, ‘You are dreaming now. Try to recognize the dream as the dream.’

 

“Once you are able to recognize the clear light of sleep as the clear light of sleep, that recognition can enable you to sustain that state for a longer period. The main purpose of dream yoga in the context of tantric practice is to first recognize the dream state as dream state. Then, in the next stage of the practice you focus your attention on the heart center of your dream body and try to withdraw the vital energy into that center. That leads to an experience of the clear light of sleep, which arises when the dream state ceases.

 

“The experience of clear light that you have during sleep is not very subtle. As you progress in your practice of dream yoga, the first experience of the clear light occurs as a result of focusing your attention at the heart center of the dream body. Although the clear light state during sleep at the beginning is not very subtle, through practice you’ll be able to make it subtler and also prolong its duration. Also, a secondary benefit of this dream body is that you can be a perfect spy.”

 

He laughed in his usual style. Realizing how much time the teaching had taken, and how late it was, he got up, bowed to all present, and left. We slowly gathered our notes and pads, resting in the aura of a knowledge that was both vast and difficult to grasp."

 

[Still_Waters]

On 2/11/2019 at 9:50 AM, steve said:

I recently came across this brief teaching from the Dalai Lama.

I thought it might be of some value to share here.

 

"In order to train in the path that would allow us to transform death, the intermediate state, and rebirth, we have to practice on three occasions: during the waking state, during the sleeping state, and during the death process. This entails integrating the self with spiritual training. Now we have three sets of three:

Death, intermediate state, and rebirth
Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya
Sleeping, dreaming, and waking

In order to achieve the ultimate states of Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya, one must become acquainted with the three stages of death, intermediate state, and rebirth. In order to become acquainted with these three, one must gain acquaintance with the states of dreamless sleep, dreaming, and waking.

“To gain the proper experience during sleep and the waking state, I think it is crucial to become familiar, by means of imagination, with the eightfold process of dying, beginning with the waking conscious state and culminating in the clear light of death. This entails a dissolution process, a withdrawal. At each stage of the actual dying process there are internal signs, and to familiarize yourself with these, you imagine them during meditation in your daytime practice. Then in your imagination, abiding at the clear light level of consciousness, you visualize your subtle body departing from your gross body, and you imagine going to different places; then finally you return and the subtle body becomes reabsorbed in your normal form. Once you are experienced at visualizing this during daytime practice, then when you fall asleep an analogous eightfold process occurs naturally and quickly. That’s the best method for enabling you to recognize the dreamless sleep state as the dreamless sleep state. But without deeper meditative experience of this in the daytime, it’s very difficult to realize this dissolution as you fall asleep.

 

“In the Highest Yoga Tantra practice there are two stages for any sadhana or visualization practice: the stage of generation and the stage of completion. In the stage of generation, the more basic of these two, this whole eightfold process of dissolution is experienced only by the power of imagination; you just visualize it. But in the second stage of practice, the stage of completion, by means of prana yoga, including the vase meditation, you bring the vital energies into the central channel, and you actually bring about such a dissolution, not just with imagination, but in terms of reality. You bring about such a dissolution, and at a certain level of this practice the clear light will manifest.

 

“If you’ve arrived at that point in your experience and practice, then it’s very easy for you to recognize the clear light of sleep when that naturally occurs. And if you have arrived at the point where you can recognize dreamless sleep as dreamless sleep, then it’s very easy for you to recognize the dream as the dream.

 

“This discussion concerns the means of ascertaining sleep as sleep and dream as dream by the power of vital energy. That’s one avenue leading to that result. Now, going back to daytime practice, if one has not reached that level of insight or experience through the vital energy practice, then during the daytime you accomplish this by the power of intent, rather than power of vital energy. Intent means you have to strive very diligently, with a lot of determination. In such practice, recognizing dreamless sleep is harder than recognizing the dream as dream.

 

“Different factors are involved in the ability to recognize the dream as dream. One is diet. Specifically, your diet should be compatible with your own metabolism. For example, in Tibetan medicine, one speaks of the three elements: wind, bile, and phlegm. One or more of these elements are predominant in some people. You should have a diet that helps to maintain balance among these various humors within the body. Moreover, if your sleep is too deep, your dreams will not be very clear. In order to bring about clearer dreams and lighter sleep, you should eat somewhat less. In addition, as you’re falling asleep, you direct your awareness up to the forehead. On the other hand, if your sleep is too light, this will also act as an obstacle for gaining success in this practice. In order to deepen your sleep, you should take heavier, oilier food; and as you’re falling asleep, you should direct your attention down to the vital energy center at the level of navel or the genitals. If your dreams are not clear, as you’re falling asleep you should direct your awareness to the throat center. In this practice, just as in using the device sent by LaBerge (see p. 106), when you begin dreaming it’s helpful to have someone say quietly, ‘You are dreaming now. Try to recognize the dream as the dream.’

 

“Once you are able to recognize the clear light of sleep as the clear light of sleep, that recognition can enable you to sustain that state for a longer period. The main purpose of dream yoga in the context of tantric practice is to first recognize the dream state as dream state. Then, in the next stage of the practice you focus your attention on the heart center of your dream body and try to withdraw the vital energy into that center. That leads to an experience of the clear light of sleep, which arises when the dream state ceases.

 

“The experience of clear light that you have during sleep is not very subtle. As you progress in your practice of dream yoga, the first experience of the clear light occurs as a result of focusing your attention at the heart center of the dream body. Although the clear light state during sleep at the beginning is not very subtle, through practice you’ll be able to make it subtler and also prolong its duration. Also, a secondary benefit of this dream body is that you can be a perfect spy.”

 

He laughed in his usual style. Realizing how much time the teaching had taken, and how late it was, he got up, bowed to all present, and left. We slowly gathered our notes and pads, resting in the aura of a knowledge that was both vast and difficult to grasp."

 

As usual, Steve, your posts are excellent.

 

The Imagination approach is indeed quite worthwhile, and many do use that approach but it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy in some cases as one can easily blur the boundaries between imagination and reality. However, the second stage of the practice, as described, is well-communicated as one would expect from the Dalai Lama. "But in the second stage of practice, ... you actually bring about such a dissolution, not just with imagination, but in terms of reality. You bring about such a dissolution, and at a certain level of this practice the clear light will manifest."

 

Ironically, this was unexpectedly the subject of a discussion of a very similar nature last night with a Kabbalistic Hassidic Rabbi and his group in nearby Brooklyn. The terminology was different, of course, but the understanding of the process was virtually identical as this is a very common practice across the various traditions as I had mentioned here in the past.  That is what prompted me to come back briefly to see how this thread was progressing if at all.

 

As your post also noted, diet is very very important as well. That was discussed last night as well.

 

Very good post ! Thanks for sharing ! You bring so much to this site.

[Spotless]

On 1/28/2019 at 5:49 AM, s1va said:

 

I will write more about Turiya and some of the things that are unveiled to a person that has reached that state.  The 5 cloaks such as time, space, limitations, etc does not limit a person who has transcended to 4th state.  In Daoist terms, I would call such a person as Ruler Immortal.

 

The state described transcends the sleep, but not bypasses it.  One in sleep during turiya does not hear to external sounds through senses.  The sensory mind, out of the 4 I described earlier with sense perceptions and sense organs are off, since they are in sushupti or deep sleep state.  Also, it is possible for a person in Turiya to dream from time to time.  Gautam Buddha had dreams from time to time, this is mentioned by him and well documented in some sutras.  Generally their sleep is devoid of dreams.  I am not sure about the state you describe, but I don't think it is similar to what I described as Turiya.  Perhaps you are describing some semi-awake state where the sense organs still operate and provide input to the mind.

Dreams are practically non-existent - for several years at least not one.

And it is not the maintenance of awareness - this is not a doing.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Spotless